Donald Trump releases his birth certificate, demands Obama does the same

[IceBergSLiM]

Get your argument straight. Your analogy in post 167 inplies you think the two documents are in no way equivalent other than both being of government issue.

My argument is the same what the cop was asking for is not what he was given.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

And if you want to see his underwear drawer, should he just show you because?

You wanted proof that he was eligible to run for President, he gave it. The long form birth certificate is just shifting goalposts.

Officer: can you prove you own this vehicle?
Driver: here are my ownership papers sir.
Officer: no I need to see the original bill of sale.

I think people wanted to see the original birth certificate all along and did not change mid stream when a copy was issued.

 

[sandorski]

/facepalm

Some just can't stop wallowing in their own stupidity.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

It doesn't concern you that a (former) vice-presidential candidate and possible future presidential candidate (gulp) is smuggling in illegal foreign babies to raise as her own?

Anything about Palin couldn't be further from a concern for me. stop derailing the thread

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm not claiming anything. I want to see the original and so do a lot of other people. If I ask for an original I want the original not a copy of the original, not a legal equivalent of the original. The original. Whats so hard about this? Just show me the original.

So we should fly you and every other birther bonehead to Hawaii, take you to the archives, and put the original in your hands, or what?

Even then, you'd express doubts, offer that it probably isn't perfect in some particular you can't quite identify, and ask for more corroboration.

Birtherism is based on Faith, not reason, and is, by definition, impossible to satisfy. It's Faith in a negative, that the black guy with the funny name who's now president doesn't have the right to be there, and that any mechanism supporting that delusion must be valid. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

So we should fly you and every other birther bonehead to Hawaii, take you to the archives, and put the original in your hands, or what?

Even then, you'd express doubts, offer that it probably isn't perfect in some particular you can't quite identify, and ask for more corroboration.

Birtherism is based on Faith, not reason, and is, by definition, impossible to satisfy. It's Faith in a negative, that the black guy with the funny name who's now president doesn't have the right to be there, and that any mechanism supporting that delusion must be valid. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory.

no I think if it is presented publicly that would suffice. I don't need to hold it. I don't think anyone needs to hold it, you are getting a bit carried away.

FYI - I voted for Obama. I'm not racist or whatever you imply.

 

[jonks]

What you don't understand and what maybe we haven't illustrated clearly is we want to validate and verify the original document not the document issued in 2007.

Oh, no, I understand you "want" that. What I'm saying is:

1) what's already been produced is legally sufficient and what any other citizen not resembling a coffee skinned man with an exotic name would have had to produce to satisfy the proof of requirements of office. Unlike your police scenario, the cop needs the drivers license, anything short of that won't do. That's not the case here. Legal requirements have been met, and then some. The comparable scenario would be your cop, after getting a drivers license, then asks for a utility bill to prove the address on the drivers license is accurrate.

2) Someone who doesn't believe two 50 year old newspaper articles, more than two state representatives of Hawaii, and an official HI document is not a person who is going to be swayed by more documentation. Dignifying such requests only serves to lend credibility to their claims. They will not stop if he produces more documents. They will ignore it and press on because they "know" he was born in Kenya or whatever.

There is zero upside to producing any more documentation. What do you think happens if he does produce it, end of controversy?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Oh, no, I understand you "want" that. What I'm saying is:

1) what's already been produced is legally sufficient and what any other citizen not resembling a coffee skinned man with an exotic name would have had to produce to satisfy the proof of requirements of office. Unlike your police scenario, the cop needs the drivers license, anything short of that won't do. That's not the case here. Legal requirements have been met, and then some. The comparable scenario would be your cop, after getting a drivers license, then asks for a utility bill to prove the address on the drivers license is accurrate.

2) Someone who doesn't believe two 50 year old newspaper articles, more than two state representatives of Hawaii, and an official HI document is not a person who is going to be swayed by more documentation. Dignifying such requests only serves to lend credibility to their claims. They will not stop if he produces more documents. They will ignore it and press on because they "know" he was born in Kenya or whatever.

There is zero upside to producing any more documentation. What do you think happens if he does produce it, end of controversy?

1) I understand it met the legal requirements. I didn't ask for the legal equivalent.

2) I didn't ask for newspaper articles or the word of two state reps. What was asked for was the original.

Everything submitted is probably a 100% legal and valid but it isn't what was asked for. why go through all the trouble of having people dig up newspaper clippings and getting state reps to vouch for you when that wasn't what was asked for. Just show the original document that would be alot easier than jumping through hoops nobody asked for.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

There is zero upside to producing any more documentation. What do you think happens if he does produce it, end of controversy?

The upside would be providing what was originally asked for and not continuing to perpetuate rumor by only providing things that weren't asked for.

 

[werepossum]

1) I understand it met the legal requirements. I didn't ask for the legal equivalent.

2) I didn't ask for newspaper articles or the word of two state reps. What was asked for was the original.

Everything submitted is probably a 100% legal and valid but it isn't what was asked for. why go through all the trouble of having people dig up newspaper clippings and getting state reps to vouch for you when that wasn't what was asked for. Just show the original document that would be alot easier than jumping through hoops nobody asked for.

I believe the governor of Hawaii verified that the original does not exist, in spite of the people who claim to have seen it. Perhaps BECAUSE of the people who claim to have seen it; the original may well be sitting in someone's file cabinet. Or the Certificate of Live Birth may have been generated from computerized records; I suspect originals for anyone may be very hard to find, which is why Hawaii (at least now) simply issues a new Certificate of Live Birth.

The upside would be providing what was originally asked for and not continuing to perpetuate rumor by only providing things that weren't asked for.

Obama has an aversion to producing or releasing records in general. Maybe he has something to hide, but it could also be simple arrogance or even a conscious decision to not do so, gives the opposition something harmless on which to concentrate. Kerry and Clinton had the same aversion, so it may be Democrat strategery; if the Dems can avoid releasing records whilst their mainstream media allies insist the Pubbies release them, that gives the Dems lines of attack denied to the Pubbies.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I found his live birth certificate, and his birth certificate (and the ark of the covenant but who cares about that, we're talking about Obama and his evil plans)

Go down 3 rows, turn right, left, and then right again, 15th box down on your left. It's right there, prove me wrong.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

snip.

Whatever the reason for not showing it, I'm entitled to think its shady. He has been deceptive conning the public whenever he gets the chance on every other matter so I'm not sure why I or anyone should give him a pass here.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Whatever the reason for not showing it, I'm entitled to think its shady. He has been deceptive conning the public whenever he gets the chance on every other matter so I'm not sure why I or anyone should give him a pass here.

Go to Hawaii, hang-out in front of the Vital Statistics Office and ask to see the copy of the birth certificate of people coming out. If it looks different than Obama's let us know, until then stop trolling.

And while you're at it, why aren't you asking why Donald Trump isn't providing a copy of his Official State of New York Birth Certificate?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Go to Hawaii, hang-out in front of the Vital Statistics Office and ask to see the copy of the birth certificate of people coming out. If it looks different than Obama's let us know, until then stop trolling.

And while you're at it, why aren't you asking why Donald Trump isn't providing a copy of his Official State of New York Birth Certificate?

Talking in circles again. I didn't ask for a copy of birth certificate. I'm not doubting the authenticity of the 2007 copy.

I don't care about trump he isn't president and he doesn't regularly con the american public.

 

[Matt1970]

I believe the governor of Hawaii verified that the original does not exist, in spite of the people who claim to have seen it. Perhaps BECAUSE of the people who claim to have seen it; the original may well be sitting in someone's file cabinet. Or the Certificate of Live Birth may have been generated from computerized records; I suspect originals for anyone may be very hard to find, which is why Hawaii (at least now) simply issues a new Certificate of Live Birth.


Obama has an aversion to producing or releasing records in general. Maybe he has something to hide, but it could also be simple arrogance or even a conscious decision to not do so, gives the opposition something harmless on which to concentrate. Kerry and Clinton had the same aversion, so it may be Democrat strategery; if the Dems can avoid releasing records whilst their mainstream media allies insist the Pubbies release them, that gives the Dems lines of attack denied to the Pubbies.

It is quite easy to store records by date. Each person's birth certificate would be only 1-3 pages. Most states still have people that on request will go retreve the document, photo copy it, notorize it, and mail you a copy for around $10.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I don't care about trump .... he doesn't regularly con the american public.

Other than saying that sarah palin has a PhD in International Economics or in Anthropology, that could be the funniest thing I've seen here in a while.

 

[jonks]

The upside would be providing what was originally asked for and not continuing to perpetuate rumor by only providing things that weren't asked for.

1. Asked for by whom? To prove he was eligible he released his COLB which anyone else would have to provide. US Citizen John Thomas Smith wouldn't be required to publish more, US Citizen Barack Hussein Obama shouldn't be obligated to publish more just to satisfy the unsatisfiable.

2. "Perpetuate rumor" - this was what I asked you. Are you claiming that releasing more documents will put rumor to rest when nothing else has? We'll have to disagree on that but the track record so far is on my side.

You are saying he should release it to quell doubters. But if releasing it has no chance of quelling doubters, why release it?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

1. Asked for by whom? To prove he was eligible he released his COLB which anyone else would have to provide. US Citizen John Thomas Smith wouldn't be required to publish more, US Citizen Barack Hussein Obama shouldn't be obligated to publish more just to satisfy the unsatisfiable.

2. "Perpetuate rumor" - this was what I asked you. Are you claiming that releasing more documents will put rumor to rest when nothing else has? We'll have to disagree on that but the track record so far is on my side.

You are saying he should release it to quell doubters. But if releasing it has no chance of quelling doubters, why release it?

1) Asked by whom? The doubters. Trump. Myself and thousands if not millions of skeptical americans. I understand he isn't obligated if he was obligated this would be a legal issue

2) Releasing what was asked for would certainly quell doubters. Previous document releases didn't quell doubters because the documents weren't what was asked for. This seems like a logical response to me. Just like the cop and the driver, the driver can present him with every legal document, credit card, library card, electric bill, pay stub under the sun. The cop isn't going to be satisfied until he gets the drivers license.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Why should the President of the United States be able arbitrarily to force the State of Hawaii to provide more thorough documention of his birth than it would of any other citizen's birth in that state?

 

[CallMeJoe]

...The cop isn't going to be satisfied until he gets the drivers license.

To use your own analogy, the driver has already provided his driver's license. The cop is now demanding to see copies of his written and practical driving test.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Why should the President of the United States be able arbitrarily to force the State of Hawaii to provide more thorough documentation of his birth than it would of any other citizen's birth in that state?

Why not? He doesn't have a problem arbitrarily waging war in Libya

 

[IceBergSLiM]

To use your own analogy, the driver has already provided his driver's license. The cop is now demanding to see copies of his written and practical driving test.

no I haven't seen any birth document issued besides the 2007 document. Where is the original

The equivalent would be the driver handing the officer a xerox copy of the license or photograph of the license.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Why not? He doesn't have a problem arbitrarily waging war in Libya

Then take Libya up with him then. You guys are beating a dead horse when it comes to this Certificate of Birth shit.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Then take Libya up with him then. You guys are beating a dead horse when it comes to this Certificate of Birth shit.

Where is the dead horse has the original been shown? I've seen lots of evidence none of it what was asked for. Provide what was asked for and we go away.

 

[jonks]

1) Asked by whom? The doubters. Trump. Myself and thousands if not millions of skeptical americans. I understand he isn't obligated if he was obligated this would be a legal issue

2) Releasing what was asked for would certainly quell doubters. Previous document releases didn't quell doubters because the documents weren't what was asked for.

This is empirically incorrect and ignores what has preceded, this is what I meant by the track record so far. Let's recap.

- Conspiracy theorists claimed he wasn't a citizen.
- So Obama had the COLB that the campaign obtained released. THEN,
- Conspiracy theorists said it was PhotoShop and "proved it" with analysis of text halos, lack of creases, lack of a raised seal, etc.
- So Obama had third parties examine it and more images popped up showing clear text, creases, a raised seal, etc. THEN,
- Conspiracy theorists said it was a forgery and had "proof" from their forensic analysts.
- So Obama had the staffers in the Hawaii Department of Health verify that the document number was that of a legitimate birth certificate, THEN,
- Conspiracy theorists said they wouldn't believe it unless someone from the state made a public and official statement
- So Obama had the Health Department Director and the registrar of vital statistics issue a press release stating they personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate, THEN
- Conspiracy theorists demanded the original long form birth certificate

And tha's where we are. Can I fill in for you what would happens next?

- So Obama releases his long form birth certificate, THEN,
- Conspiracy theorists claim it's a forgery or photoshopped and why'd it take so long to produce it anyway
- So Obama has 3rd parties verify.....

The doubters at this point have no rational reason to doubt, and to doubt the evidence put forth so far requires a mind so dedicated to the propositoin that Obama was not born here that nothing could convince them. If you don't believe the COLB, why? If you doubt the newspaper announcements, what reason is there? If the state officials of HI were lying, what did they have to gain? How did Obama's teenage mother pull off the greatest mystery birth since Jesus?

If you doubt now, and an original birth cert convinces you, your standards of proof are illogical. The same non-reasons anyone would doubt the existing evidence would also apply to an original birth certificate.