Donald Trump releases his birth certificate, demands Obama does the same

[jhbball]

Where is the dead horse has the original been shown? I've seen lots of evidence none of it what was asked for. Provide what was asked for and we go away.

ROFL.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

yes it is
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no it's not
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no it's not
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no it's not
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no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
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no it's not
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no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not
yes it is
no it's not

 

[IceBergSLiM]

"Political opponents demanded candidate Obama produce his birth certificate. In response, the Obama campaign filled out the official request form with the state of Hawaii and were sent the birth certificate document issued by that state. The Obama campaign made the document publicly available. For no logical reason they could articulate, opponents were not satisfied."

Ignoring all the rest that has actually followed (the official statements, the newspaper announcements), anything that came after the initial production of the document enters conspiracytheoryland.

He provided legal proof I never though this was a legal discussion. People want to know what he is hiding(if anything) on his original.

The fact that it is still being discussed and at least one state is taking measures to make a law around it means this is an important issue to alot of people.

 

[Capt Caveman]

yes this has been made very clear dozens of times. Do you think continually repeating will make the original appear?

And why would you need the original? If he doesn't have one(I've lost mine years ago), I can only get a copy that my state will give me.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

And why would you need the original? If he doesn't have one(I've lost mine years ago), I can only get a copy that my state will give me.

It would satisfy questions about his checkered past. I thought that was already said as well.

 

[jonks]

He provided legal proof I never though this was a legal discussion. People want to know what he is hiding(if anything) on his original.

No, "people" do not. Conspiracy nuts do. You have confused the chronology again.

Recap again from the top:
- Whacko right wing bloggers looking to start a conspiracy theory note the dark man with weird name who would be king hasn't published his birth certificate
- Obama publishes birth certificate (ISSUE IS CLOSED FOR NORMAL PEOPLE)
- Whacko right wing bloggers attack birth certificate as fraud, phony, shopped
- Document proven authentic, state officials testify to it, newspaper announcements accompanying birth surface (ISSUE SHOULD BE CLOSED FOR DOUBTERS BUT ISN'T)
- Whacko right wing insists they want to see the original vital records despite no previous president ever having been asked to produce such documentation, pretend they will be satisfied with docs if produced

You don't seem to really think Obama was born in Kenya, it's just that the conspiracy theorists have gotten to you (CT's are fun after all) and you have become curious, but your error lies in mistaking Obama's refusal to dignify racism, ignorance and political opportunism with an agenda to protect a long dormant secret.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained from producing it. You stated it would quell rumors, I have proven empirically that producing documents does not quell rumors. Anyone not satisfied yet will not be satisfied by more, and by obliging the loonies it demeans the office.

 

[her209]

Yes, please! Release Trig Palin's birth certificate

Ohhhhhh low blow.

 

[Matt1970]

No, "people" do not. Conspiracy nuts do. You have confused the chronology again.

Recap again from the top:
- Whacko right wing bloggers looking to start a conspiracy theory note the dark man with weird name who would be king hasn't published his birth certificate
- Obama publishes birth certificate (ISSUE IS CLOSED FOR NORMAL PEOPLE)
- Whacko right wing bloggers attack birth certificate as fraud, phony, shopped
- Document proven authentic, state officials testify to it, newspaper announcements accompanying birth surface (ISSUE SHOULD BE CLOSED FOR DOUBTERS BUT ISN'T)
- Whacko right wing insists they want to see the original vital records despite no previous president ever having been asked to produce such documentation, pretend they will be satisfied with docs if produced

You don't seem to really think Obama was born in Kenya, it's just that the conspiracy theorists have gotten to you (CT's are fun after all) and you have become curious, but your error lies in mistaking Obama's refusal to dignify racism, ignorance and political opportunism with an agenda to protect a long dormant secret.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained from producing it. You stated it would quell rumors, I have proven empirically that producing documents does not quell rumors. Anyone not satisfied yet will not be satisfied by more, and by obliging the loonies it demeans the office.

Nice try, but it was the campaign of Hillary Clinton that brought this to the forefront in the first place.

 

[jonks]

It would satisfy questions about his checkered past. I thought that was already said as well.

It's true you keep saying it, it's just not true as I've demonstrated.

 

[soundforbjt]

Nice try, but it was the campaign of Hillary Clinton that brought this to the forefront in the first place.

And don't you think, that if they (Hillary's campaign) had any chance of being right, they would've used it to their advantage?

She let it go, why can't you and the rest of the birther nut cases?

Where are Trig's birth records again?

 

[Hacp]

Certificate of live birth is not a birth certificate. Its like saying you went to the University of Arizona when you went to the University of Pheonix. Not the same.

 

[jonks]

Certificate of live birth is not a birth certificate. Its like saying you went to the University of Arizona when you went to the University of Pheonix. Not the same.

Bzzt. You drank the birther's dictionary koolaid. "Birth Certificate" is a generic term meaning an official document evidencing circumstances of birth. If you go to Hawaii's vital records page to request your birth certificate the resulting document you are sent is labeled a "certificate of live birth". That's a birth certificate. You can't get anything else. If your position is that Hawaii doesn't issue birth certificates because the form isn't called 'birth certificate' that's pretty weak sauce.

 

[Fern]

The debate in Congress about the presidential runner/guy born in Panama was about what?

I presume you mean McCain's qualificiations?

Entirely different think IMO. There's no question of where he was born - a military hospital. The question is - are people born in that location considered to be "natural born citizens'. We've seen a similar question with Barry Goldwater (born in US territory that was later a state).

There, of course, there's that small detail that it's not the Senate's job to rule on Constitutional matters. Don't really care about their debate. Had McCain been elected there would likely have been challenges file with the SCOTUS.

Fern

 

[Darwin333]

Great, another election of non-issues and sideshows.

I can't wait for us to fix zero real problems for 4 more years.

Hell I would be extremely happy if we just didn't fuck more shit up for 4 years.

 

[Darwin333]

He provided legal proof I never though this was a legal discussion. People want to know what he is hiding(if anything) on his original.

The fact that it is still being discussed and at least one state is taking measures to make a law around it means this is an important issue to alot of people.

So if your original BC is destroyed in a flood and all you can get is a certified copy from the State you should not be eligible to run for President?

 

[werepossum]

Hell I would be extremely happy if we just didn't fuck more shit up for 4 years.

+1

 

[Darwin333]

OT question:

You do not need to be a natural born citizen to be elected to Congress and I assume that it is not a requirement to be the Speaker of the House.

What happens if Arnold was Speaker of the House and somehow the President and Vice President died at exactly the same time? Does that person just get skipped and the next person in line becomes President or is it more akin to the government dividing by zero?

 

[werepossum]

OT question:

You do not need to be a natural born citizen to be elected to Congress and I assume that it is not a requirement to be the Speaker of the House.

What happens if Arnold was Speaker of the House and somehow the President and Vice President died at exactly the same time? Does that person just get skipped and the next person in line becomes President or is it more akin to the government dividing by zero?

That person gets skipped in the line of succession, being ineligible to become President or Vice-President.

EDIT: This issue was previously addressed over Madelyn Albright, who as a naturalized citizen was in the line of succession but who could not succeed to those offices. (This also helped prevent a vicious battle over whether or not one could be too ugly to be President . . .)

 

[jonks]

OT question:

You do not need to be a natural born citizen to be elected to Congress and I assume that it is not a requirement to be the Speaker of the House.

What happens if Arnold was Speaker of the House and somehow the President and Vice President died at exactly the same time? Does that person just get skipped and the next person in line becomes President or is it more akin to the government dividing by zero?

Don't know but I would assume they're skipped.

 

[Fern]

One last crack at explaining this maybe. Pretend you're a birther. You know about the newspaper announcements and live birth certificate and HI public official statements verifying them, and you just don't believe them. You're not convinced. Why the hell would another official HI document convince you where the mountain of evidence before you has failed to do so?
-snip-

OK, and I'll have a crack at explaining the birther position (or at least one of them).

Unlike any other President (to my knowledge anyway), there is no question as to the fact his mother was living out of the country for a substantial period prior to giving birth.

His father was not a US citizen (although I saw a 'birther position' yesterday for the 1st time that suggested otherwise). But let's consider it as fact that Obama Sr. was his father, it's also fact he was not a US citizen.

Hawaii offers several types of BC. Among those are the 'regular' born in a hospital type and a Delayed BC. A Delayed BC means you were not born in a hospital, and there was no physician or mid-wife in attendance either. How to get a delayed BC? Sometime after the birth, you go or call to the HI Dept and inform them of the birth, possibly needing a friend or relative to support your claim. From looking at the statute in effect then, it was certainly not a rigorous process. This is a verifiable fact.

With the document so far provided by Obama it is impossible to tell whether he has a 'regular' BC or a Delayed BC. The COLB provided does not show a hospital or the physician in attendance etc. This is also a verifiable fact. Had the COLB displayed a hospital as his place of birth we could rule out the possibility of a Delayed BC.

So it's entirely possible to:

(1) Believe the COLB is an 'official' HI document, not some forgery etc.

(2) Believe the newspaper announce is 'real'. The newspaper announcement came from the HI Dept when they issued a BC. So they process a 'regular' BC or Delayed BC and a notice goes out to newspaper. The announcement also does nothing to help determine what type of BC Obama was issued.

So, you can believe the COLB and announcement and still question what type of BC Obama was issued.

Now, if Obama does indeed have a Delayed BC it is not dispositive that he is NOT a natural born citizen nor that he is. We're back to questions. You see, the Constitutional requirement is not that the candidate have an official BC from a state, it is that they be a NBC. These are two different things. You can get a HI (or other state) BC for child even if they are born OUTSIDE of the US. You can get one for a foreign born child, of foreign parents, whom you adopt in a foreign country.

Obama knows this, he has teams of attorneys and this info out there for all to see. IMO, he doesn't need to show the original to settle the question of which type BC he was issued, although that would certainly do it. Seems to me a computer generated COLB displaying the pertinent info (the hospital or physician) would resolve the issue. Yet Obama refuses to provide it and fights all attempts to force him to do so.

If 'anti-birthers' cannot acknowlege the verifiable factual basis for this question, and thus it's reasonabless, then IMO they are as nutty and irrational as many of the birthers (the "COLB is forged!" etc).

While I think you are correct Jonks (in your earlier post) that providing info to help establish his BC is a regular hospital born-type would not stop all lawsuits, it would certainly go a looooong way toward tamping down what I personally believe are legitimate questions. But he may not be able to do that.

IMO, the most logical reason (really, the only logical reason) to stick with the COLB is that the original (or long form) BC would raise far more questions than it answers. In which case, the logical thing is to stick with it and keep fighting lawsuits etc.

Fern

 

[Fern]

OT question:

You do not need to be a natural born citizen to be elected to Congress and I assume that it is not a requirement to be the Speaker of the House.

What happens if Arnold was Speaker of the House and somehow the President and Vice President died at exactly the same time? Does that person just get skipped and the next person in line becomes President or is it more akin to the government dividing by zero?

IIRC, they'd be skipped. You keep going down the list until you find someone who is able to serve.

As a practical matter, I believe this would considered when electing the Speaker. I.e., they'd probably choose someone who is a NBC. It wouldn't bother me if the didin't however. I don't believe we've ever had a Speaker assume the role even briefly (like when a Pres is shot and disabled etc).

(I'm still amused by A Haig, who as Sec of State, tried to claim he was taking over for Reagan when he was shot)

Fern

 

[IceBergSLiM]

So if your original BC is destroyed in a flood and all you can get is a certified copy from the State you should not be eligible to run for President?

Real copy identical to the original or a legal equivalent? These are different items.

 

[Matt1970]

OK, and I'll have a crack at explaining the birther position (or at least one of them).

Unlike any other President (to my knowledge anyway), there is no question as to the fact his mother was living out of the country for a substantial period prior to giving birth.

His father was not a US citizen (although I saw a 'birther position' yesterday for the 1st time that suggested otherwise). But let's consider it as fact that Obama Sr. is was father, it's also fact he was not a US citizen.

Hawaii offers several types of BC. Among those are the 'regular' born in a hospital type and a Delayed BC. A Delayed BC means you were not born in a hospital, and there was no physician or mid-wife in attendance either. How to get a delayed BC? Sometime after the birth, you go or call to the HI Dept and inform them of the birth, possibly needing a friend or relative to support your claim. From looking at the statute in effect then, it was certainly not a rigorous process. This is a verifiable fact.

With the document so far provided by Obama it is impossible to tell whether he has a 'regular' BC or a Delayed BC. The COLB provided does not show a hospital or the physician in attendance etc. This is also a verifiable fact. Had the COLB displayed a hospital as his place of birth we could rule out the possibility of a Delayed BC.

You can also get a BC in HA if your parents were residents of the state for over a year prior to your birth but you happened to be born elswhere.

 

[Fern]

You can also get a BC in HA if your parents were residents of the state for over a year prior to your birth but you happened to be born elswhere.

Yes.

HI, and other states, have some lax rules on BC's. Accordingly, IMO, there is ample reason to reject the notion that any state BC automatically qualifies one as a natural born citizen qualified to run for President.

They have a 'regular' hospital born- type BC? Fine, accept it as proof. Otherwise, I think the qualification needs to be confirmed with corraborating evidence.

Fern

 

[jonks]

Unlike any other President (to my knowledge anyway), there is no question as to the fact his mother was living out of the country for a substantial period prior to giving birth.

No question? Could you link something about this? Her family moved to HI in 1960 where she met Obama Sr and they were married in 61 while she was 3 months pregnant. I don't see anything about her traveling abroad at that time.

The only account of her trip to Africa that I found was this one and it doesn't sound super likely.

His father was not a US citizen (although I saw a 'birther position' yesterday for the 1st time that suggested otherwise). But let's consider it as fact that Obama Sr. is was father, it's also fact he was not a US citizen.

Sure, not relevant but ok.

Hawaii offers several types of BC. Among those are the 'regular' born in a hospital type and a Delayed BC. A Delayed BC means you were not born in a hospital, and there was no physician or mid-wife in attendance either. How to get a delayed BC? Sometime after the birth, you go or call to the HI Dept and inform them of the birth, possibly needing a friend or relative to support your claim. From looking at the statute in effect then, it was certainly not a rigorous process. This is a verifiable fact.

please link to both the official requirements for a delayed cert and evidence that they are easily obtained.

With the document so far provided by Obama it is impossible to tell whether he has a 'regular' BC or a Delayed BC. The COLB provided does not show a hospital or the physician in attendance etc. This is also a verifiable fact. Had the COLB displayed a hospital as his place of birth we could rule out the possibility of a Delayed BC.

Ok, so is it fair to say that you are pinning the entirety of the "legitimate birther claims" on the proposition that the original document may be a delayed form birth certificate?

1) The colb registration is dated 4 days after his birth, so either someone made a phone call and produced a birth certificate (I doubt it's quite this simple) or newly unpregnant mommy hopped out of bed and onto a flight from kenya with her day old baby, it doesn't seem likely, especially since having her mixed race baby be a natural born citizen to satisfy presidential eligibility was not likely among her top concerns at the time. Also the whole no evidence of her having traveled abroad while pregnant seems pertinent.

2) The cognitive dissonance problem. The Hawaii officials and governors, republican and democrat alike, have verified the vital records. So a birther would need to not only disregard the other evidence, but also believe that these people are lying and are a part of the vast conspiracy. Additionally, if a person can stretch their brain enough to subscribe to the notion that these officials of varying political persuasions are in fact lying, then there is no logical reason such a person would accept a piece of paper saying Obama was born in a hospital in Honolulu. If you believe a republican governor would stoop to issuing an utterly false proclamation to cover up a conspiracy of birth, you gotta believe he would also mock up some records, wouldn't ya?

So again, given the evidence already disclosed, given the reaction by oppenents every step of the way to each piece of disclosure (Fraud! Lies!), it's beneath the dignity of the office to grant any further serious consideration to the demands of the demented.