DOJ tells schools to implement race-based punishments

[Londo_Jowo]

Hmmm this seems to be similar to what Miami-Dade schools did with documenting criminal activity as being academic issues.

 

[Matt1970]

I feel that it is proper to use the progtard's strategy against themselves.

A strategy of using insults in lieu of actually intellectual discussion shows nothing but immaturity and shows extreme weakness in ones own position and ability to express oneself. Like I said, if that's the path you wish to take, knock yourself out. It makes you sound like tourettes guy from YouTube. We could probably get a separate category setup and you guys can just fling insults back and forth at eachother. Then we can start judging you guys on creativity, content, and on raw vulgarity.

 

[theeedude]

LOL. There are bunches of people quoted:
Joy Pullmann, managing editor of School Reform News by Heartland institute, a right wing "think" tank
Andrew Coulson, director of the Center for Educational Freedom at the Cato Institute a right wing "think" tank
Frederick Hess, director of education policy at the American Enterprise Institute
a right wing "think" tank
You can even see the document yourself, but I guess I can understand you need to wait to hear from Rachel Maddow before you know what to think.

Three right wing think tanks spewing same sheet through a right wing rag. You fell for this echo chamber?
Like I said I'll wait for a legitimate source before forming an opinion.

 

[Matt1970]

Three right wing think tanks spewing same sheet through a right wing rag. You fell for this echo chamber?
Like I said I'll wait for a legitimate source before forming an opinion.

You can even see the document yourself. Are you incapable of reading it and forming your own opinion?

 

[Genx87]

Going to wait for a report from a legitimate news source before forming an opinion on the matter.

There is a link in this thread where you can read the full document in all of its glory.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I like how just a few posts back you complained about me not wanting to engage on the issue but then make posts like this.

How about you actually go back, read the letter again, go read up on the issues that its referencing, then try to make a real argument.

Your entire argument comes down to "so what". Your entire worldview is "conservative" and "liberal". This is how you started out.

I don't give a crap about either of those terms, unlike yourself and some others. What I do know is that virtual immunity based on past history creates an environment harmful to them and others. Your bureaucratic nonsense is just as bad as the "free market will save us" and "so what" says it all.

If a person is misbehaving and will not control themselves it is neither to their benefit nor anyone else that it be permitted. If that individual is placed in a "time out" situation and temporally separated then that is what is needed, and ultimately the behavior ought to be addressed, but "deprived" because of it? Nonsense. That they ought to ruin what can be done because they are a minority and then "so what"? This is about adherence to nonsense bureaucracy, utter Pharisaical tripe. Screw the students is the real effect. Stop being a "conservative" and think about the actual people in the situation and what harms and helps. Care more about them than what the DOJ says you ought to think.

 

[nehalem256]

So what? I get the feeling like you might want to read up more about disparate impact.

Why would we want to read up on the retardism that is disparate impact?

Lets put it this way. If rules against tardiness(an example given by the DOJ) "disparately impact" minorities are such rules racist? Because that is the only possible way what you are saying makes any kind of logical sense.

 

[nehalem256]

this cartoon sums up the differences in American schools between past and present very well.

Well apparently the DOJ wants to move to a whole new level of retard. Following their logic it seems highly likely that grades have a "disparate impact" on minorities and we should therefore ensure that an equal percentage of all races receive each letter grade D:

 

[theeedude]

You can even see the document yourself. Are you incapable of reading it and forming your own opinion?

I read it in full context, and I don't have any issues with it.

 

[theeedude]

There is a link in this thread where you can read the full document in all of its glory.

Did you read it? I did. They have examples of discrimination that falls under this policy, and they all sound like discrimination to me.

 

[Genx87]

Did you read it? I did. They have examples of discrimination that falls under this policy, and they all sound like discrimination to me.

Yes I read about half of it. Go read my response about the document earlier in the thread. What you just described is how I felt about the document.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

A strategy of using insults in lieu of actually intellectual discussion shows nothing but immaturity and shows extreme weakness in ones own position and ability to express oneself. Like I said, if that's the path you wish to take, knock yourself out. It makes you sound like tourettes guy from YouTube. We could probably get a separate category setup and you guys can just fling insults back and forth at eachother. Then we can start judging you guys on creativity, content, and on raw vulgarity.

lt's useless to discuss issues with Communist scumbags devoted to destroying the US constitution.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Did you read it? I did. They have examples of discrimination that falls under this policy, and they all sound like discrimination to me.

Removing a student who won't get off their cell phone is discrimination?

 

[Matt1970]

Removing a student who won't get off their cell phone is discrimination?

Racist buzzwords: tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform; corporal punishment policies that allow schools to paddle, spank, or otherwise physically punish students; and discipline policies that prevent youth returning from involvement in the justice system from reenrolling in school.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Removing a student who won't get off their cell phone is discrimination?

They never claimed it was. They cited examples of actions that might result in discipline. It is how the discipline is given that is the issue.

 

[theeedude]

Removing a student who won't get off their cell phone is discrimination?

Could be, if you do it to black students and let white students off with a warning for same, for example.
Don't be a Koch sucker and fall for the echo chamber. Read the document, it has examples.

 

[nehalem256]

Racist buzzwords: tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform; corporal punishment policies that allow schools to paddle, spank, or otherwise physically punish students; and discipline policies that prevent youth returning from involvement in the justice system from reenrolling in school.

Well to be fair insubordination and acting out can easily be judgement calls so it is not absurd to think that their might be some hidden racism going on.

However, the inclusion of black and white things like being tardy, having a cellphone in class, not wearing a uniform make it pretty clear that the DOJ is not just trying to eliminate racism.

I think the real question is though. What happens when zero-tolerance policies meet "disparate impact"?

Will we get to a point where white students are expelled if they chew a poptart into a gun shape, while a black student is only expelled if his gun has more than 7 bullets in it?

 

[Matt1970]

They never claimed it was. They cited examples of actions that might result in discipline. It is how the discipline is given that is the issue.

The U.S. Department of Education and the U.S. Department of Justice (Departments) are issuing this guidance to assist public elementary and secondary schools in meeting their obligations under Federal law to administer student discipline without discriminating on the basis of race, color, or national origin.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

The U.S. Department of Education and the U.S. Department of Justice (Departments) are issuing this guidance to assist public elementary and secondary schools in meeting their obligations under Federal law to administer student discipline without discriminating on the basis of race, color, or national origin.

Please show me where it said disciplining due to cell phone us was racist. I already cited the example on page one. It's examples only.

 

[drebo]

There's also this part on 'disparate impact', which is what people here have become OUTRAGED about.



In short, it says that if a school has a policy that disproportionately impacts certain racial groups this policy requires that schools be doing so in order to meet their educational goals and if there is an important educational goal there that the disproportionate policy is the best way to achieve that goal. Sounds like common sense to me.

No, common sense would say that we should spend time making these "disparately impacted" racial groups understand that their actions have consequences and maybe they should work on being better students/human beings.

No one is responsible for their actions but themselves.

 

[nehalem256]

Please show me where it said disciplining due to cell phone us was racist. I already cited the example on page one. It's examples only.

It clearly gave disciplining based on cellphone use as an example of policy that might be discriminating against minorities.

Are you trying to claim that discriminating against minorities isn't racist?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

It clearly gave disciplining based on cellphone use as an example of policy that might be discriminating against minorities.

Are you trying to claim that discriminating against minorities isn't racist?

Please cite in the letter where that claim is made.

 

[Matt1970]

Please show me where it said disciplining due to cell phone us was racist. I already cited the example on page one. It's examples only.

This is an article about how to "identify, avoid, and remedy discriminatory discipline". "Examples of policies that can raise disparate impact concerns include policies that impose mandatory suspension, expulsion, or citation (e.g., ticketing or other fines or summonses) upon any student who commits a specified offense – such as being tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform; corporal punishment policies that allow schools to paddle, spank, or otherwise physically punish students; and discipline policies that prevent youth returning from involvement in the justice system from reenrolling in school."

 

[berzerker60]

Do you really believe that racism is so bad in our schools that we need to sick the Department Of Justice on them?

No one believes that racism is terrible in every school. Anyone who doesn't believe there are school where racism is a serious problem is in the most absurd kind of denial. This school just ended segregated proms last year: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/living/wilcox-integrated-prom/. A sizable percentage of people in some states still believe it should be against the law the have interracial marriages.

Why would we want to read up on the retardism that is disparate impact?

Lets put it this way. If rules against tardiness(an example given by the DOJ) "disparately impact" minorities are such rules racist? Because that is the only possible way what you are saying makes any kind of logical sense.

Removing a student who won't get off their cell phone is discrimination?

These guidelines aren't there to decide who we can and can't label 'racist.' They're there to outline what sort of policies would be considered legally discriminatory. As the letter says, it's a multi-step process. In Step ONE - where it questions if there is a disparate impact - yes, it might be discriminatory enough to go on to Step Two. At Step Two, it asks if there is an important educational goal. Clearly there is (tardiness means less education time and more disruption), so it goes on to Step Three, where it asks if there is a less discriminatory way to accomplish the same educational goal. I don't see one, and if no one else can think of a better solution, then it's not legally discriminatory to enforce tardy rules EVEN IF it exclusively impacts black students.

But, say there's a rule against having curly hair. It's enforced evenly on everyone, white and black alike, but for some crazy reasons seems to impact black students a lot more than white students. Is that perfectly fine? Of course not! It serves no important educational goal.

Or something in the middle: there's a rule that you get expelled from school, zero tolerance, any time you're late to school. It's enforced evenly for everyone and not meant to be racist at all, but for some reason seems to impact black students more (maybe they live mostly further away and are bussed in by an unreliable driver; maybe this particular set of black students just happens to have more students who don't give a shit and are late a lot; doesn't really matter why). Step two: is there an important educational goal? Sure! Step three: Is there a way to handle the problem that doesn't impact the black kids so much more than the white kids? Well, maybe. Maybe instead of zero tolerance, you allow the bus driver to write them a note if he got delayed in traffic. Maybe instead of expulsion, where students don't get to learn anything and just fall further behind, you have in-school punishments. Maybe you try to organize the parents to set up some kind of ride-sharing program so they can work together to make sure everyone shows up on time. If those would still accomplish the educational goal (make sure students show up on time and don't disrupt others by coming in late) without as much disparate impact, that's what the rule should be for everyone going forward.

Seems like common sense to me.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

This is an article about how to "identify, avoid, and remedy discriminatory discipline". "Examples of policies that can raise disparate impact concerns include policies that impose mandatory suspension, expulsion, or citation (e.g., ticketing or other fines or summonses) upon any student who commits a specified offense – such as being tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform; corporal punishment policies that allow schools to paddle, spank, or otherwise physically punish students; and discipline policies that prevent youth returning from involvement in the justice system from reenrolling in school."

And to you that says disciplining black kids for using cell phones in class is racist? No, it's how the school responds to those incidents that can be racist. The actions they take as a result.