DOJ tells schools to implement race-based punishments

[fskimospy]

That still doesn't make it a race based punishment.

Seriously? What would it be then?

 

[nehalem256]

Great! You found the example which describes what "disparate impact" means. NOW, tell me how this would even remotely apply to, say, more black students getting into a fight vs. white students, with a corresponding higher number of suspensions for that behavior. THAT's what you can't do, and that's what you and Michal keep saying that the letter says.

I don't believe I mentioned anything restricting the issue to fights. And in fact I think I was more focused on the things specifically called out that weren't fights. You know the part of the letter I quoted:

Examples of policies that can raise disparate impact concerns include policies that impose mandatory suspension, expulsion, or citation (e.g., ticketing or other fines or summonses) upon any student who commits a specified offense — such as being tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform.”

I count at least 3 things that have nothing to do with fighting(or similar acting out). Things that tend to be pretty black and white. And yet the DOJ seems to think it is appropriate to put its nose in even if such rules are enforced fairly.

 

[nehalem256]

This

That tells you absolutely nothing.

Black people tend to live in high-crime areas. Areas which tend to have higher police presence. Gee, I wonder why they might get caught with MJ more?:hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

Police tend to target poor people because they are less likely to be able to afford a lawyer and fight prosecution. I don't think they do it on purpose, it's just the path of least resistance. Going to trial is not only more work for the officer, it also opens them up to review and internal investigation, etc.
Black people are, on average, poorer than whites and being black is an obvious visual symbol. So given the option, all else being equal, they arrest the black guy.

So then you are saying that there is a race-based issued for MJ arrests is disingenuous. Its really a socioeconomic issue. But I guess saying that poor people are more likely to be arrested for MJ than middle-class people doesn't create as much outrage.

 

[Vic]

And this is the problem with our system. Everything is open to 'interpretation'. It is written in English, we all speak English, why does any interpretation need to take place?

Do you actually live in the real world? Even the plainest English can be subject to interpretation.

 

[Matt1970]

Police tend to target poor people because they are less likely to be able to afford a lawyer and fight prosecution. I don't think they do it on purpose, it's just the path of least resistance. Going to trial is not only more work for the officer, it also opens them up to review and internal investigation, etc.
Black people are, on average, poorer than whites and being black is an obvious visual symbol. So given the option, all else being equal, they arrest the black guy.
The same thing can be applied in the schools. Poor parents are less likely to complain if their child is subject to discipline or receives a poor grade (as they are less likely to be involved in the child's life period), and so it is easier for the school official to do those to the child with poor parents than to the child whose parents are more well off (and so more likely be involved, and to complain or take action). Black children are, on average, more likely to have poor parents.
The DOJ is informing the districts that this path of least resistance is becoming more resistant.
Is this fucking rocket science or something?
Reading the comments in this thread leads me to believe that none of "conservatives" here have ever spent a single day in business management.

Well this shit lost all credibility with me and probably a lot of others when it said equal punishments for cell phone use and other actions raises concerns.

 

[Vic]

So then you are saying that there is a race-based issued for MJ arrests is disingenuous. Its really a socioeconomic issue. But I guess saying that poor people are more likely to be arrested for MJ than middle-class people doesn't create as much outrage.

That's because good little citizens, like yourself, have been trained by the media and the government to blame the poor for all their problems.

 

[Matt1970]

Seriously? What would it be then?

When 2 people of different ethnicity are arrested for the same crime and given the same punishment. If the punishment adversely effects one more than the other due to their ethnicity, race based punishment. Calling something a race based punishment refers to the punishment itself, now how often it is handed out.

 

[highland145]

That's because good little citizens, like yourself, have been trained by the media and the government to blame the poor for all their problems.

Links? Anything other than Fox is blaming conservatives and if the government blames the poor for their own poorness, they have a strange way of handling it.

 

[Darwin333]

It *is* non binding. That's the nature of these kinds of letters.

While I agree that it is legally nonbinding but when you get even a legally nonbinding letter from the DOJ it IS "very highly suggestive" and you tend to pay very close attention.

 

[fskimospy]

When 2 people of different ethnicity are arrested for the same crime and given the same punishment. If the punishment adversely effects one more than the other due to their ethnicity, race based punishment. Calling something a race based punishment refers to the punishment itself, now how often it is handed out.

So how would you describe a situation where one race is punished more often than another when holding the number of total offenses constant?

 

[Darwin333]

Police tend to target poor people because they are less likely to be able to afford a lawyer and fight prosecution. I don't think they do it on purpose, it's just the path of least resistance. Going to trial is not only more work for the officer, it also opens them up to review and internal investigation, etc.
Black people are, on average, poorer than whites and being black is an obvious visual symbol. So given the option, all else being equal, they arrest the black guy.
The same thing can be applied in the schools. Poor parents are less likely to complain if their child is subject to discipline or receives a poor grade (as they are less likely to be involved in the child's life period), and so it is easier for the school official to do those to the child with poor parents than to the child whose parents are more well off (and so more likely be involved, and to complain or take action). Black children are, on average, more likely to have poor parents.
The DOJ is informing the districts that this path of least resistance is becoming more resistant.
Is this fucking rocket science or something?
Reading the comments in this thread leads me to believe that none of "conservatives" here have ever spent a single day in business management.

Police, down to the single officer level, are often "graded" on quantity of arrests.

Schools are "graded" on the performance of their entire student body. I see absolutely zero incentive for them to dole out unfair punishment, especially academically, to their students on any sort of measurable scale.

 

[Matt1970]

So how would you describe a situation where one race is punished more often than another when holding the number of total offenses constant?

No, but thanks for trying to distract from the original point.

 

[shortylickens]

As if southern schools need more reasons to write off black kids. Now they have an excuse to isolate them into classrooms which will be completely ignored and quickly degenerate into Lord of the Flies rules.

pretty much.

 

[fskimospy]

No, but thanks for trying to distract from the original point.

It really isn't distracting from it at all. I'm genuinely curious how you would describe that if not as race based punishment.

 

[highland145]

As if southern schools need more reasons to write off black kids. Now they have an excuse to isolate them into classrooms which will be completely ignored and quickly degenerate into Lord of the Flies rules.

And the excuses for NY, DC, Iowa, Nebraska, Ohio, Illinois, Delaware, Indiana and New Mexico?

Lowest Ranked States For Black Male Graduation Rates

State/Black Male/Latino male/White male/Gap Black&White Gap Latino&White
New York 37% 37% 78% 42% 41%
Dist. of Columbia 38% 46% 88% 50% 42%
Iowa 41% * 90% 49% -
Nebraska 44% 80% 86% 43% 7%
Ohio 45% 54% 80% 35% 26%
South Carolina 46% 45% 62% 16% 18%
Delaware 47% 52% 68% 22% 16%
Florida 47% 58% 62% 15% 4%
Illinois 47% 59% 81% 34% 22%
Georgia 49% 52% 65% 17% 13%
Indiana 49% 70% 80% 31% 11%
Louisiana 49% 63% 63% 14% 0%
New Mexico 49% 57% 62% 13% 5%

Sorry for the formatting but you can figure it out.

http://blackboysreport.org/national-summary/black-male-graduation-rates

 

[Vic]

Police, down to the single officer level, are often "graded" on quantity of arrests.

Schools are "graded" on the performance of their entire student body. I see absolutely zero incentive for them to dole out unfair punishment, especially academically, to their students on any sort of measurable scale.

Did you actually read my post? I said nothing about intentionally doling out unfair punishment.

 

[Victorian Gray]

What exactly is a race based punishment when it comes to pot possession ?

It goes something like this:

"According to the ACLU’s original analysis, marijuana arrests now account for over half of all drug arrests in the United States. Of the 8.2 million marijuana arrests between 2001 and 2010, 88% were for simply having marijuana. Nationwide, the arrest data revealed one consistent trend: significant racial bias. Despite roughly equal usage rates, Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana"


https://www.aclu.org/billions-dollars-wasted-racially-biased-arrests

 

[peonyu]

As if southern schools need more reasons to write off black kids. Now they have an excuse to isolate them into classrooms which will be completely ignored and quickly degenerate into Lord of the Flies rules.

They do that to themselves...The worst schools are in black majority areas, with black teachers and a 99% black student population. If discrimination really was the holy grail as to why some groups fail in this country then Asians, Jews AND Muslims would be complete failures to...But not so! Asians and Jews have a higher average living standard than Whites do in this country btw..

Place the blame where it belongs: Black culture, or the lack of it to be precise. Pumping out "6 keeds n sheet" at age 15, and each "keed" having a different "baby daddy" as the norm for a culture isnt going to produce a thriving community. Luckily Sports exists...Cause damn, if Sports were not around then what could we point to as a success for the black community ? OH! There is Barack Obama [but he was raised by his white grandparents and in white culture, keep quiet about that though!].

Just saying!

 

[Vic]

They do that to themselves...The worst schools are in black majority areas, with black teachers and a 99% black student population. If discrimination really was the holy grail as to why some groups fail in this country then Asians, Jews AND Muslims would be complete failures to...But not so! Asians and Jews have a higher average living standard than Whites do in this country btw..

Place the blame where it belongs: Black culture, or the lack of it to be precise. Pumping out "6 keeds n sheet" at age 15, and each "keed" having a different "baby daddy" as the norm for a culture isnt going to produce a thriving community. Luckily Sports exists...Cause damn, if Sports were not around then what could we point to as a success for the black community ? OH! There is Barack Obama [but he was raised by his white grandparents and in white culture, keep quiet about that though!].

Just saying!

Question : how do you explain all the black people who have been successful in other endeavors besides sports?

 

[HumblePie]

It goes something like this:

"According to the ACLU’s original analysis, marijuana arrests now account for over half of all drug arrests in the United States. Of the 8.2 million marijuana arrests between 2001 and 2010, 88% were for simply having marijuana. Nationwide, the arrest data revealed one consistent trend: significant racial bias. Despite roughly equal usage rates, Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana"


https://www.aclu.org/billions-dollars-wasted-racially-biased-arrests

Horrible statistic as pointed out previously.

1) In order to be arrested for MJ possession, a cop has to suspect you for that.
2) Cops are "graded" for performance based off arrest and conviction rates
3) Because of 2, cops target areas that have higher crime rates for all crimes.
4) Areas with higher crime rates typically are poorer areas. Black people are statistically more likely to be poor. Thus poor areas tend to have more black people (unfortunate statistic)
5) Being in an area targeted by cops is going to lead to more cos suspecting people of the area to be doing criminal activities, see point 1.
6) Many caught and busted for possession of MJ were typically busted in conjunction of another crime as well. Most people are not showing others in public view they are doing drugs (some do, but not most). So most that get caught on a possession charge are busted along with some other crime being committed.

So simple answer is that it isn't simple. MJ use is fairly equal among all the nationalities. What makes one group more likely to get busted for possession versus another isn't really based off race (although there are more than a few cases of cops hassling blacks for being black to get them busted for something). Drug possession charges usually come in conjunction with other criminal charges. Other criminal charges happen more often in poor areas. Blacks tend to dominate poor areas of this country. Thus blacks tend to get busted more for possession charges of MJ versus other ethnic backgrounds.

Are there cops that are racial bigots that target some ethnic groups over others? Hell yah. But I've seen black cops hassle poor white people as well. To claim that this is the most significant detail in the comparison is stupid though as it is not.

 

[peonyu]

Question : how do you explain all the black people who have been successful in other endeavors besides sports?

There are exceptions to everything, but most successful black people speak without ebonics and made something of themselves. Black ghetto culture glorifies living on welfare and not working, blaming everyone but themselves when they fail [usually "da white man"] and rap music is their inspiration for life. Its not surprising that those who follow that culture end up doing so poorly in life.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are the epitome of "enablers" for the failure of black culture in this country...Except no responsibility for anything but instead blame blame blame everyyyyyyone else!

 

[Vic]

There are exceptions to everything, but most successful black people speak without ebonics and made something of themselves. Black ghetto culture glorifies living on welfare and not working, blaming everyone but themselves when they fail [usually "da white man"] and rap music is their inspiration for life. Its not surprising that those who follow that culture end up doing so poorly in life.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are epitome of "enablers" for the failure of black culture in this country...Except no responsibility for anything but instead blame blame blame everyyyyyyone else!

Oprah and Aliko Dangote are anything but ghetto and are as successful as can be.

Would Oprah agree with you here?

 

[peonyu]

Would Oprah agree with you here?

I could have sworn I said there were exceptions..Oh yes I did, and you quoted it. Thank you!

 

[berzerker60]

Horrible statistic as pointed out previously.

1) In order to be arrested for MJ possession, a cop has to suspect you for that.
2) Cops are "graded" for performance based off arrest and conviction rates
3) Because of 2, cops target areas that have higher crime rates for all crimes.
4) Areas with higher crime rates typically are poorer areas. Black people are statistically more likely to be poor. Thus poor areas tend to have more black people (unfortunate statistic)
5) Being in an area targeted by cops is going to lead to more cos suspecting people of the area to be doing criminal activities, see point 1.
6) Many caught and busted for possession of MJ were typically busted in conjunction of another crime as well. Most people are not showing others in public view they are doing drugs (some do, but not most). So most that get caught on a possession charge are busted along with some other crime being committed.

So simple answer is that it isn't simple. MJ use is fairly equal among all the nationalities. What makes one group more likely to get busted for possession versus another isn't really based off race (although there are more than a few cases of cops hassling blacks for being black to get them busted for something). Drug possession charges usually come in conjunction with other criminal charges. Other criminal charges happen more often in poor areas. Blacks tend to dominate poor areas of this country. Thus blacks tend to get busted more for possession charges of MJ versus other ethnic backgrounds.

Are there cops that are racial bigots that target some ethnic groups over others? Hell yah. But I've seen black cops hassle poor white people as well. To claim that this is the most significant detail in the comparison is stupid though as it is not.

Meanwhile, arrest records make it much much harder to get jobs, especially good jobs; high arrest rates keep property values down in these areas, so there's no building equity in a home; property taxes pay for most of education costs in America, so these areas are much worse funded than richer suburbs and children get worse educations; and time in jail for non-violent pot arrests break up families and deprive children of parents. Along with a million other effects.

It's a cycle. Poverty leads to crime (sometimes, nonviolent and harmless crime like smoking pot) leads to disproportionate arrests leads to poverty. Someone like you or me, on a good track, gets arrested (where we don't) for having pot because he's in the vicinity of more crime than we are. He gets thrown in jail and fucks his life chances, gets a shitty minimum wage job where he works (if he's lucky) 40+ hours/week and has to get food stamps to survive anyway. Then we P&N posters shit on him from the comfort of our computers for being "lazy" and making "bad life choices" since he has a worse job than us, when the only worse choices he made than us was being born in a poor area. The American Dream!

The real problem is that decades of terror about the communists hiding under the bed has made it impossible to talk about how much we shit on the poor in America without being accused of "class warfare" against the rich. You're right that it's not all racism, and that poverty is the bigger issue. Being classist should be as shunned as being racist, but sadly it's just not. Meanwhile, racism isn't the only underlying force, but it's undeniably a real and systematic factor too, making things worse start to finish.