Does this man deserve to die for his crime?

[moonbogg]

If you watch a video or see a photo of any violent crime, you're going to get riled up and possibly have a vengeful reaction. All violent crimes look ugly when seen first hand. Some are less severe than this, some much worse.

My parents had a friend, a very nice elderly man, whose wife had passed away and he was alone. Three thugs broke into his house, tied him to a chair, and played pinata with a baseball bat on his head and body. They struck him over 100 times and left him for dead. He died the next day.

Yes, there are worse crimes than what you saw in that video. Whether you saw it or not is immaterial to the severity of the crime, and shouldn't affect our judgment regarding punishment.

ALL crimes of this nature should result in a zero tolerance response. Life in a far away, isolated prison with terrible conditions, or death. Beyond a certain level of crime, the punishment should be ultimate.
What happened to those who killed your friend? 8 years then released into the wild?

 

[woolfe9998]

I am mystified how people can watch that video and then beg for mercy on this guy. I almost wish I didn't watch it because now its got me all fucked up.

Opposing the death penalty or the slow torture you've suggested is hardly "begging for mercy."

 

[woolfe9998]

ALL crimes of this nature should result in a zero tolerance response. Life in a far away, isolated prison with terrible conditions, or death. Beyond a certain level of crime, the punishment should be ultimate.
What happened to those who killed your friend? 8 years then released into the wild?

I actually don't know. Last I heard, which was a few days after the man died, they had still not been caught. For some reason, the cops knew there were three assailants and knew the weapon was a baseball bat. Not sure why. My parents probably followed the case and know if they got caught. I haven't thought to ask them.

No way would they get 8 years if they were caught. They'd get the death penalty or LWOP.

Anyway, I'm not clear where you draw your 'ultimate punishment' line. Currently we draw a line at murder, which seems reasonably clear. If we're going to include non-lethal injury, there is such a wide spectrum that I can't see any workable rule that isn't arbitrary.

 

[nextJin]

Put them down, like someone mentioned earlier it's exactly like dealing with a rabid dog. Has absolutely nothing to do with race, I said the same thing about those 2 white guys who brutally raped (both daughters and the wife) and burned a doctors family alive.

The doctor was a liberal btw and managed to escape to see his entire family burn .

If I could ask him anything today I'd ask him if he still thought guns were evil and should be banned.

 

[Zebo]

I am mystified how people can watch that video and then beg for mercy on this guy. I almost wish I didn't watch it because now its got me all fucked up.

I'm not begging for mercy but death penalty for battery does not fit crime. We'd be killing ppl in droves if that were case not to mention batterers would have incentive to kill the witness, the batterie, since its same penalty may as well reduce your exposure. Instead of just mom with fat lip you're talking about dead mom and daughter for your idea of justice. He did deserve to die though while battery is occurring because it could lead to death but since it didnt 5-10 years in prison would be just imo.

 

[MagickMan]

Killed? No, but I believe he should have the shit kicked out of him until he's confined to a wheelchair for the rest of his life and has to drink the remainder of his meals through a straw.

 

[MagickMan]

Am I? You guys made me feel sorry for someone who beat a woman in front of her 3-year old daughter. If anyone's being unreasonable, it sure as hell ain't me.

Seek professional help, you ain't right.

 

[moonbogg]

Put them down, like someone mentioned earlier it's exactly like dealing with a rabid dog. Has absolutely nothing to do with race, I said the same thing about those 2 white guys who brutally raped (both daughters and the wife) and burned a doctors family alive.

The doctor was a liberal btw and managed to escape to see his entire family burn .

If I could ask him anything today I'd ask him if he still thought guns were evil and should be banned.

In many cases it is like dealing with a rabid dog. That is how they will always be and cannot be rehabilitated, because that suggests that they used to be civil and can be returned to normalcy, while in reality they are likely violent by nature or permanentally due to bad experiences early on.
Regarding the guns, the scary thing is you might not get to it in time. This was a lightning fast strike that noone would expect. This world often sucks.

I'm not begging for mercy but death penalty for battery does not fit crime. We'd be killing ppl in droves if that were case not to mention batterers would have incentive to kill the witness, the batterie, since its same penalty may as well reduce your exposure. Instead of just mom with fat lip you're talking about dead mom and daughter for your idea of justice. He did deserve to die though while battery is occurring because it could lead to death but since it didnt 5-10 years in prison would be just imo.

That is a good point. At the same time, having soft laws is like negotiating with a terrorist. Currently we say, "please don't kill them and in return you'll get out of jail eventually" when we should be saying, "Violate this woman's sovereignty in such a manner and it will be the last thing you ever do".

Killed? No, but I believe he should have the shit kicked out of him until he's confined to a wheelchair for the rest of his life and has to drink the remainder of his meals through a straw.

This has merit. What he did should at least be returned to him in a more severe manner so that he can truly comprehend and grasp the nature of his actions and their effect on his victims.

 

[Smoblikat]

Killed? No, but I believe he should have the shit kicked out of him until he's confined to a wheelchair for the rest of his life and has to drink the remainder of his meals through a straw.

I like that, much more pain and suffering involved. Rip out his teeth too!

 

[lothar]

Its a repost.

Okay...So this is a repost of a thread that was never on topic to begin with. Only difference is that this repost is actually the one that is on topic and you want the mods to lock this?

You're crazy.

 

[SlickSnake]

An intentionally violent crime like this deserves death.

He didn't accidentally find himself in a position he had to defend himself from, like if she was fighting back, and she would have acquiesced anyhow with her daughter there.

He deliberately started attacking her upon his forced entry, and he had to know someone was home, because the TV was on. So he had already decided ahead of time it was worth it to break in, and then attack and rob her. He must have already been casing the house ahead of time, and knew she was alone.

Based on the nature of his crime, it does deserve the death penalty in my opinion, and a jury would almost certainly agree after seeing the video if they had the chance to convict him.

 

[Perknose]

It's difficult to argue the other position because we have a video showing this man to be something akin to sub-human garbage. So when you're trying to argue for civility and the rule of the law, they will respond by alleging that you are trying to defend sub-human garbage. They don't get that the justice system reflects who we are, and we're supposed to be better than the criminals. They don't get it, and they'll never get it, regardless of race.

- wolf

Thank you, wolf, for speaking the highest, sanest truth here.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The death penalty is serious business. Consider what you are asking for. The same people who gave us the NSA crap will be handed more power to execute others based on a lower standard. I think his punishment ought to be harsh, but giving Obama, Cheney, Feinstein and too many others the ability to punish by death? This is a slippery slope I never want to go down. You cannot argue "does this guy" deserve anything, because it isn't "this guy", it's something which will have broader scope and application.

Damn foolish I think.

 

[moonbogg]

Those who are against death for this man, what punishment would you see as being fit for him? Are the current laws good enough for crimes like this? A simple assault charge and breaking and entering? Perhaps attempted murder? He might get 5 years for this when its all said and done. He will likely spend 5-10 years in prison for this. He will certainly be released at some point at which he may actually kill someone due to the failure of our justice system. Is that good enough?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

An intentionally violent crime like this deserves death.



<snip>

I agree.

And, if we started executing every violent criminal I guarantee crime rates would go down.

But we will never see that happen if we continue on with our privatized prison systems.


I think that's my frustration with the 'anti death penalty' people. The VAST majority are manipulated political pawns and they don't even realize it.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Those who are against death for this man, what punishment would you see as being fit for him? Are the current laws good enough for crimes like this? A simple assault charge and breaking and entering? Perhaps attempted murder? He might get 5 years for this when its all said and done. He will likely spend 5-10 years in prison for this. He will certainly be released at some point at which he may actually kill someone due to the failure of our justice system. Is that good enough?

They have a point though. I've said many times in this thread that I feel like this man should die, but there's no practical way to work the death penalty into the system for cases like this without doing more harm than good. That doesn't change the fact that if it were feasible to apply the death penalty in this case and have it affect no other cases, the net result would be beneficial to society. The problem is that with our legal system it's not possible to keep that decision from bleeding over to other situations that may not warrant it.

Some people in this thread seem to think that everyone who answered the question posed in the thread title honestly don't understand that.

This is a lot like that thread in OT where the OP asked if he took a stick and poked a star light years away would he be cheating the speed of light. The answer is yes, but only if a bunch of other physics defying impossible propositions were accepted to be true. In a way this thread is asking a similar question. Would we be better off if this man were to die for his crimes? The answer is yes, but only if our legal system worked in a way that it doesn't and likely never will in our lifetimes.

None of that changes the fact that he deserves to die. Don't confuse the way things happen to work with being morally proper.

 

[moonbogg]

They have a point though. I've said many times in this thread that I feel like this man should die, but there's no practical way to work the death penalty into the system for cases like this without doing more harm than good. That doesn't change the fact that if it were feasible to apply the death penalty in this case and have it affect no other cases, the net result would be beneficial to society. The problem is that with our legal system it's not possible to keep that decision from bleeding over to other situations that may not warrant it.

Some people in this thread seem to think that everyone who answered the question posed in the thread title honestly don't understand that.

This is a lot like that thread in OT where the OP asked if he took a stick and poked a star light years away would he be cheating the speed of light. The answer is yes, but only if a bunch of other physics defying impossible propositions were accepted to be true. In a way this thread is asking a similar question. Would we be better off if this man were to die for his crimes? The answer is yes, but only if our legal system worked in a way that it doesn't and likely never will in our lifetimes.

None of that changes the fact that he deserves to die. Don't confuse the way things happen to work with being morally proper.

I honestly think people DO get what you've pointed out. Its the reason we aren't like some of the backwards, immoral and disgusting countries in the middle east with their 16th century justice system. A system that is easily manipulated to punish enemies rather than criminals in ways that will never be regarded as fair or just.
Regarding the asshole in the video and regardless of what actually makes sense and what doesn't, this asshole needs the Judas Cradle. He needs to die and others like him need to die. I'm sorry, but no amount of reason can shake me from this position after seeing that video. He needs to die.
I'd like to find a way to incorporate more severe punishment into our justice system.

 

[Munky]

He deserves to go to jail for a long time, but not death, he didn't kill anyone. I don't care that he's black or that she's a white woman. Leave the lynch mobs in the past where they belong.

 

[Baked]

He deserves to go to jail for a long time, but not death, he didn't kill anyone. I don't care that he's black or that she's a white woman. Leave the lynch mobs in the past where they belong.

Yeah, but the way he was beating her can be viewed as attempted murder. Just because she survived the beating doesn't mean he shouldn't be charged with one. I'd say manslaughter at least.

 

[Doppel]

Those who are against death for this man, what punishment would you see as being fit for him? Are the current laws good enough for crimes like this? A simple assault charge and breaking and entering? Perhaps attempted murder? He might get 5 years for this when its all said and done. He will likely spend 5-10 years in prison for this. He will certainly be released at some point at which he may actually kill someone due to the failure of our justice system. Is that good enough?

Life in prison sounds about right. I think by his age and what he did there's no reasonable expectation of correcting him, so simply keep him away from the rest of us.

Yeah, but the way he was beating her can be viewed as attempted murder.

Attempted murder requires intent to murder. I don't see anything there that told me he had that intent. He beat her for quite a long time, and finally threw her down the stairs and then carried in with what he was doing. If he wanted to have killed her he easily could have done, but he didn't because I think it was not his motivation. This is despite the fact that in practice being thrown down the stairs can easily kill you.

Surprised this guy hasn't been caught yet. I guarantee you canvas the crappiest part of town with a $20k reward and pictures of this guy you will find him.

 

[Doppel]

AH ha!

Suspect arrested.

http://newjersey.news12.com/news/co...t-in-violent-millburn-home-invasion-1.5587819

 

[boochi]

Good!

 

[kage69]

AH ha!

Suspect arrested.

http://newjersey.news12.com/news/co...t-in-violent-millburn-home-invasion-1.5587819

Excellent. Now if only he could be assigned a cell with Rorschach from Watchmen.

Mr. Shawn Curtis, welcome to the party.

 

[SlickSnake]

AH ha!

Suspect arrested.

http://newjersey.news12.com/news/co...t-in-violent-millburn-home-invasion-1.5587819

KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL :twisted:

Ahhhhhhhhh. ()

I feel sooo much better now.



"I is what I is." Popeye the Sailorman

 

[nextJin]

If he had been killed the first time, he wouldn't have been a problem anymore. But no, he was fixed and released.

Put his ass down.