Doctors who do abortions

[abj13]

You are the one who is expossed, you are claiming restrictions which do not exsist.

Now, now don't get frustrated. You've demonstrated absolutely zero knowledge in this thread, and now are only replying to save face.

Let me break your argument down, since you don't even understand what you are trying to say. You are trying to define "health" when used in the realm of whether an abortion is legal or not, includes "mental health" and "depression." You can define anything, that doesn't really matter, the question is whether reasonable person shares the same definition. So tell me, what physicians, or physician groups agree that "mental health" is a rationalization for an abortion and would be covered by the above state laws?

All you're doing is a game of semantics. What physician or groups of physician are performing abortions claiming they are legal because they are concerned about the "mental health" and "depression" of the mother?

 

[DCal430]

Now, now don't get frustrated. You've demonstrated absolutely zero knowledge in this thread, and now are only replying to save face.

Let me break your argument down, since you don't even understand what you are trying to say. You are trying to define "health" when used in the realm of whether an abortion is legal or not, includes "mental health" and "depression." You can define anything, that doesn't really matter, the question is whether reasonable person shares the same definition. So tell me, what physicians, or physician groups agree that "mental health" is a rationalization for an abortion and would be covered by the above state laws?

All you're doing is a game of semantics. What physician or groups of physician are performing abortions claiming they are legal because they are concerned about the "mental health" and "depression" of the mother?

1. You are clueless about the issue, and spewing shit you know nothing about.

2. The Supreme Court specified that it must include mental health reasons.

 

[DCal430]

Here is one article showing a doctor who performed late term abortions for reasons of depression.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124407988050683807.html

They tried to prosecute him with a crime, but the courts agreed the law allowed abortion for health reasons, and depression was a valid health reason.

 

[abj13]

1. You are clueless about the issue, and spewing shit you know nothing about.

2. The Supreme Court specified that it must include mental health reasons.

Like I said, stop reading Wikipedia for your attempt at sounding informed. If you want to read what the US Supreme Court has said in defining "health," I suggest you read US v Vuitch, because you clearly have not. When it comes to defining whether an abortion is appropriate for perserving the mother's health, the court held that it is within the physicians decision to determine what is and what is not covered by the mother's "health." In concurring, Justice White wrote: "It should also be absolutely clear that a doctor is not free to perform an abortion on request without considering whether the patient's health requires it. No one of average intelligence could believe that under this statute abortions not dictated by health considerations are legal."

The Supreme Court has held that it is within the physicians judgement to define what constitutes "health" or whatever terminology the individual state has utilized. So once again, what physician or physician group is agreeing that DEPRESSION is covered by the above state definitions of legal abortions?

Here is one article showing a doctor who performed late term abortions for reasons of depression.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124407988050683807.html

They tried to prosecute him with a crime, but the courts agreed the law allowed abortion for health reasons, and depression was a valid health reason.

Nice googling up facts again. If you were aware of the situation, the woman who worked with Tiller, Ann Kristen Neuhaus lost her license for those cases (Tiller didn't since he was dead):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4647468...-kansas-abortion-referrals-case/#.T9_ikfWG6So

So I ask again, what physician or physician group agrees that "mental health" and "depression" are covered by the various state statutes. As happened in Kansas, the physicians WERE NOT PROTECTED upon further review.

You shouldn't keep on googling up facts, it isn't working.

 

[mikeymikec]

Why should it be a difficult decision to rid your self of some unwanted cells?

Guys, I think this person has asked the ultimate question! So many people in history have had their tits in a twist over this issue and the reason is they've simply never considered it this way. Any difficult discussion between couples about abortion from this day will simply be countered with your argument and the argument won on the spot. I tip my hat to you sir. Not.

I am not female, I can't experience pregnancy, so I can't answer this first-hand. As I understand it, one reason I can think of that many women would consider aborting to be a traumatic experience is that in the course of pregnancy, a shed load of hormones are released, and one of the objectives of this is to re-arrange the woman's priorities so that emotionally speaking the kid's life is as important to her as her own.

Many women feel traumatised after aborting because they feel that they've had their child killed.

Is clipping your fingernails a difficult decision?

Biologically speaking, the white ends of your nails are dead cells, a living foetus is alive.

 

[cybrsage]

Biologically speaking, the white ends of your nails are dead cells, a living foetus is alive.

Also, the fetus is a different human than the mother. The fetus is a 100% unique DNA expressed human. It is also a stage of life all living humans go through, so it is not merely a "clump of cells" but in fact the entirety of a human and is alive.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Also, the fetus is a different human than the mother. The fetus is a 100% unique DNA expressed human. It is also a stage of life all living humans go through, so it is not merely a "clump of cells" but in fact the entirety of a human and is alive.

And the mother no longer wishes to carry it to term.

 

[cybrsage]

And the mother no longer wishes to carry it to term.

So what? Should it be legal to no longer wish to feed a newborn after bringing it home from the hospital?

 

[nehalem256]

So what? Should it be legal to no longer wish to feed a newborn after bringing it home from the hospital?

Actually they have Safe-Haven laws to allow the mother to abandon the child at a hospital without the knowledge/consent of the father for this very reason.

 

[shortylickens]

Why should it be a difficult decision to rid your self of some unwanted cells?

Is clipping your fingernails a difficult decision?

Those fingernails dont have the potential to grow up into independent human beings who could contribute to society.
If you keep them around for 15 or 20 years could they make an argument that you should have let them live? Can they be grateful for it?

(Truth be told I'm pro abortion, but you should understand what you're saying if you're going to say it.)

 

[surfsatwerk]

So what? Should it be legal to no longer wish to feed a newborn after bringing it home from the hospital?

Not the same thing.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Those fingernails dont have the potential to grow up into independent human beings who could contribute to society.
If you keep them around for 15 or 20 years could they make an argument that you should have let them live? Can they be grateful for it?

(Truth be told I'm pro abortion, but you should understand what you're saying if you're going to say it.)

Most people who support abortion realize it is a sad thing. It's just that the alternatives of taking pregnant women hostage and confining them until they give birth is fairly inhumane.

 

[alzan]

Also, the fetus is a different human than the mother. The fetus is a 100% unique DNA expressed human. It is also a stage of life all living humans go through, so it is not merely a "clump of cells" but in fact the entirety of a human and is alive.

Depending on the stage of gestation, it is very much a clump of cells.

The fetus, up until viability, is a potential human being. After viability it is more of a human being; yet it still has had no experiences, memories or knowledge that, IMO along with other criteria constitute a human being. It is a blank slate ready to be filled with various pigments that will coalesce into a human being.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince most people that a clump of cells that has had barely two weeks of existence is a human or human being.

 

[nehalem256]

Most people who support abortion realize it is a sad thing. It's just that the alternatives of taking pregnant women hostage and confining them until they give birth is fairly inhumane.

Is that not an argument against putting anyone in prison for anything immoral?

Or is it just inhumane when you do it to a woman?

Depending on the stage of gestation, it is very much a clump of cells.

The fetus, up until viability, is a potential human being. After viability it is more of a human being; yet it still has had no experiences, memories or knowledge that, IMO along with other criteria constitute a human being. It is a blank slate ready to be filled with various pigments that will coalesce into a human being.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince most people that a clump of cells that has had barely two weeks of existence is a human or human being.

Seems like that argument would work equally for infanticide.

And many people do consider a 2 week clump of cells to be a human being.

 

[dabuddha]

Is that not an argument against putting anyone in prison for anything immoral?

Or is it just inhumane when you do it to a woman?



Seems like that argument would work equally for infanticide.

And many people do consider a 2 week clump of cells to be a human being.

Mostly idiots. Bottom line, do we really want to force a welfare crackhead mother of 6 children to bear another child because of some moral or out-dated religious belief?

 

[Atreus21]

Whether or not the mother consented to sex is more important than the life of a perfectly innocent child?

Yes. Whether the child is innocent or not, a woman is not to be enslaved. She has a valid claim of self-defense against a child conceived from rape.

 

[nehalem256]

Mostly idiots. Bottom line, do we really want to force a welfare crackhead mother of 6 children to bear another child because of some moral or out-dated religious belief?

No, but neither should we let her bear another child just because it is her "choice".

Choice worship is just as retarded as "out-dated religious belief". Probably more so.

 

[Atreus21]

Just because you don't approve of late term abortion doesn't mean there is no difference between an unborn fetus and a baby born around the same time.

You really think that's how abortion works? That EVERY pregnancy has some random, unknowable chance to end in an abortion that changes from time to time? I find it interesting that arguments against abortion often seem to require this alternate reality where abortion (particularly the motives behind it) is far different from the actual world. I also find it interesting that the arguments often fixate on rare cases like late term abortions rather than discuss the entire issue.

Late term abortion is easily the most tangible evidence of the horror of abortion. You're not looking at a few thousand cells. You're looking at a recognizably-human infant. Anyone who doesn't recoil at the idea of killing it for no good reason...is not far short of a monster.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Is that not an argument against putting anyone in prison for anything immoral?

Or is it just inhumane when you do it to a woman?

No it's not.

 

[Atreus21]

Depending on the stage of gestation, it is very much a clump of cells.

The fetus, up until viability, is a potential human being.

No. From conception to death, it is a human being. The difference between a zygote and an adult is a difference of development, not being.

After viability it is more of a human being; yet it still has had no experiences, memories or knowledge that, IMO along with other criteria constitute a human being. It is a blank slate ready to be filled with various pigments that will coalesce into a human being.

Using this logic, what is your argument against killing a 5 minute old newborn?

 

[dabuddha]

No, but neither should we let her bear another child just because it is her "choice".

Choice worship is just as retarded as "out-dated religious belief". Probably more so.

I'm not about to start dictating whether we should allow/disallow what a person does with their own body. I believe Hitler did that back in the day. As for the welfare system, I've got many thoughts on that as well but it definitely needs a complete overhaul.

 

[alzan]

Is that not an argument against putting anyone in prison for anything immoral?

Or is it just inhumane when you do it to a woman?



Seems like that argument would work equally for infanticide.

And many people do consider a 2 week clump of cells to be a human being.

Possibly. But we're not discussing infanticide. Poor attempt to move the goalposts.

And many people believe that professional wrestling is real. Your point essentially wasn't?

So do they call the mother a murderer when the egg detaches from the uterine wall and gets flushed out during the monthly cycle. Because they do that to abortion doctors.

 

[actuarial]

Choice worship is just as retarded as "out-dated religious belief". Probably more so.

Choice worship is the hallmark of a free society.

There's places on this earth where there is much less 'choice worship' and also many places (not mutually exclusive) where there is much more application of out-dated religious belief.

I doubt you want to live in any of those places.

 

[nehalem256]

I'm not about to start dictating whether we should allow/disallow what a person does with their own body. I believe Hitler did that back in the day. As for the welfare system, I've got many thoughts on that as well but it definitely needs a complete overhaul.

So I would assume you oppose mandatory child support laws, becuase that dictates that a man works to support a woman's reproductive choice.

Choice worship is the hallmark of a free society.

There's places on this earth where there is much less 'choice worship' and also many places (not mutually exclusive) where there is much more application of out-dated religious belief.

I doubt you want to live in any of those places.

And any free society must put reasonable limits on choice. It is for example why I cant stab people who irritate me. Because my choice affects someone else.

 

[actuarial]

And any free society must put reasonable limits on choice. It is for example why I cant stab people who irritate me. Because my choice affects someone else.

That's a reasonable opinion and I agree with it. Had you said that the first time, instead of your ridiculous hyperbole, I never would have responded.