Do you think it's okay to pirate a game if a demo is never released?

[Maleficus]

No, what's idiotic is your comments such as this: Personally - there are plenty of people in that position, you just refuse to accept it because the world is out to get you.

it is more than clear from the copious amounts of evidence in this thread,d that experiences like yours are the exception, yet you claim they are the rule.

you play the part of the mistreated software developer well, but it's ultimately bullshit, there is no real loss of revenue because these people wouldn't buy their shit anyway.

comparing food and software and claiming them both to be consumables, good riddance.

 

[imported_Imp]

I'm on the fence with this. I rarely try demos anymore. Instead, I read as many reviews as i can, and raid the forums to see what common issues are. It hasn't really failed me yet since this causes me to play/buy fewer games.

As for pirating games without demos: on one hand, it seems kind of ok since you can either fork over $50 and take the risk of it sucking, or try it, like it then buy it. Problem is, I doubt the 'honor' system works well enough in that you will immediately delete the game if you have any issue at all with it. It's too easy to say "oh, I don't like this about it so they don't deserve my money, but I'll finish it anyways".

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

There's a few op-ed pieces by equally credible devs giving the counterpoint, that piracy is a major problem in the industry.

I'm sure there are, but I was responding to Pugs contention that the only people who argue piracy isn't a huge problem are the pirates. To refute his bs claim all I had to point out was one reputable person who disagrees. I figure the developer of a bestselling no budget game would be a solid source.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

There's a few op-ed pieces by equally credible devs giving the counterpoint, that piracy is a major problem in the industry.

I'm sure there are, but I was responding to Pugs contention that the only people who argue piracy isn't a huge problem are the pirates. To refute his bs claim all I had to point out was one reputable person who disagrees. I figure the developer of a bestselling no budget game would be a solid source.

And the fact that Sins of a Solar Empire sold incredibly well should speak volumes about how much money is being wasted on piracy prevention schemes that ultimately never work.

Paying out the ass for copy protection doesn't sell more copies, it just increases your production costs. When will game developers learn that copy protection garbage is a huge waste of money and only inconveniences that legitimate users without inhibiting the pirates at all?

If the bottom line is a profit margin, then even a complete moron can recognize that you don't continue dumping money into a technology that has never worked. Every so often a new piracy prevention scheme comes out, and within days it is compeltely cracked by the piracy community. Games with latest and greatest protection are often found all over the bit torrent sites fully cracked. Does this not tell us that the money spent on piracy protection is WASTED? Just as many people pirate the product, but now your profit margins are even LOWER because a ton of money was thrown away on software that doesn't work!

Would anyone here pay out even 1% of your income to a 3rd party that effectively provides no service to you? Would you buy a product knowing full well that it doesn't work? I didn't think so!

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
of the games i have recently bought:

crysis - demo.
gears of war - played on 360, enjoyed
jade empire - picked it up for cheap, enjoyed it. if it had sucked, i wouldn't have lost much
orange box - epic win. didn't need a demo to tell me TF2 would rock

i do wish people would release demos for their games though. it helps give a much better idea of what the game will be like.

This is one HUGE advantage that PCs used to have over consoles. With downloadable demos over the PSN and Xbox Live, now that advantage is nullified. You used to have to get demo discs with magazines.

Gamers demand demos. I've never bought a car without test driving it first. When it comes to luxury commodities, like games, it is wise to provide demos to your consumers. If you have a legitimately good product, then releasing a demo can only help you sell more copies. If your game sucks, then the demo will reflect that and fewer people will buy it.

When a game has no demo associated with it, I become VERY cautious and am easily able to justify pirating the game for a little test drive. 90% of the time (that's my experience) the games that don't have demos authentically suck. The few times that a game has been good, I've purchased it either before or after finishing it (I won't finish a shitty game, but I will buy a good game that I've already finished playing)

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

You go to the bookstore, sit down with the book you have been thinking about buying, and you read for an hour. Either the book grabs you and you buy it, or the book sucks and you put it back. This is the try before you buy. Gives you a much better look at the content of the book, and allows you to read more of it, and get a better idea if it's worth your time and money.

See this one gets me... the big book stores seem to act as libraries these days. I have no idea why, and it seems to me they condone this "form" of piracy. I dunno... I think that may be why most bookstores have coffee shops in them - so that while you're spending several hours not buying books you'll at least spend some money on coffee. I don't really understand what their mode of business is in this case - it's definitely a strange business model. But then again, you can also go to a library and read the same book for free too.

That's your opinion. Question is an economy of scale - when you "test" a software title, how long will you need? A test drive - 10 minutes of time - is going to give you a good idea of a car. 10 minutes in front of a TV at a store will give you a good idea. Will 10 minutes give you a good idea in a game? How about a movie - how many movies have you seen where the first 1/4 of the movie was slow and boring, but man did it build up awesome at the end? A game? What's 1/4 of a game... or 1/2? Depends on the game... but odds are you'll need at least a day... and in that day you'll probably have "enjoyed" a good amount of the content

That's a very good point you've brought up. Piracy naysayers claim that you can't possibly have a successful business model when your product can be obtained for free. The book publishing industry has obviously been an exception to this doomsday scenario, but I guess they don't count?

Previewing a book in the book store is NOT piracy. Allowing you to read pieces of the book is what gets books sold. Your logic is completely backwards, your opinion has no grounding in reality. The coffee shop is an ADDITIONAL source of income; book sales are the primary source of income. Usually the coffe shop is a Starbucks anyway, so the book store is actually making very little from coffee sales.

I'd say 10 minutes of a game DOES give you a good idea of what to expect. Obviously it can't give you a precise picture of the whole experience, but it is a good measurement of what to expect. It's called taking a sample size. If the demo sucks, I don't play the game. If the demo shows to me even a slight glimmer of a good game, I'll buy the game. It's that simple. Include the first level of any game and that will give you a good idea of the gameplay and maybe even the storyline.

The preview of a movie is the demo of the movie. The preview may look very good. That entices you to watch the movie. The equivelent is a video game demo. You're playing the game. The back of the movie's DVD box is the equivelent of the game's box. It gives you less information than the preview/demo. Usually the back of a box (for either movies OR games) won't tell you whether or not you'll enjoy the movie.

This reply is probably wasted on you. I've met your type. You use fairly thoughtful arguments that don't reflect anything about the real world. What you see is imagined scenarios where no one buys books in book stores. Your beliefs on piracy are based on nothing more than faith in what others have told you rather than empirical observation and hard data. Did Sins of a Solar Empire tops sales charts despite having no copy protection? Well obviously that's just a fluke, there are countless developers that developed fantastic games that went under due completely to piracy. Yeah, they can't have possibly gone under due to poor business practices. Producing shitty games can't possibly kill a game developer, right? It's the pirates that are destorying the games industry, that's obvious regardless of the data, yes?

 

[coloumb]

It's never ok to pirate a game no matter what.

With that said - I would never buy anything unless I could take it for a test drive no matter how much people rant and rave about it.

Systems are already in place which would allow people to "test drive" the latest games - internet/gaming cafes, digital download services [STEAM], etc.

In this day and age of hyperspeed broadband -there should be absolutely no reason why a demo shouldn't be made available.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: coloumb
It's never ok to pirate a game no matter what.

With that said - I would never buy anything unless I could take it for a test drive no matter how much people rant and rave about it.

Systems are already in place which would allow people to "test drive" the latest games - internet/gaming cafes, digital download services [STEAM], etc.

In this day and age of hyperspeed broadband -there should be absolutely no reason why a demo shouldn't be made available.

The internet cafe is a good suggestion that I had not considered.

I agree, demos should be encouraged for EVERY game. There is no excuse. It doesn't take long to make a demo once the main game is ready. That should always be the final step immediately before the game goes gold; make a demo and put it on the internet. A game publisher should have nothing to fear by releasing a demo; if the game sucks, their sales are going to tank (and rightfully so, shitty games shouldn't sell). If it's a great game, their profits are going to increase by having a demo.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Raduque
Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

I've never had your luck. If the game is opened, they'll allow an exchange and will open the box for me. This has happened to me at both of my local Best Buys and at two Gamestops in two different cities. Wherever you shop, be thankful that they let you return games for a refund.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
What some of you don't seem to realize, is that the majority of these evil capitalist hating pirates would do once you take away the completely reasonable option of TRYING something before you commit your resources to it, is simply not buy them.

There is virtually no loss of income from piracy because the people who pirate the software are either the ones who actually have the intention of buying the product if it's good, or the ones who would have never bought it anyway.

SunnyD: you're return experiences are 1 in a billion.

Also, this is one of the most idiotic thing I have seen on these boards in a while: "I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails." you're telling me that box art is indicative of gameplay and quality? gtfo.

If I remember correctly, Daikatana had killer box art.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Maleficus
What some of you don't seem to realize, is that the majority of these evil capitalist hating pirates would do once you take away the completely reasonable option of TRYING something before you commit your resources to it, is simply not buy them.

Exactly - if there's no option to try it legally, then turn the other way.

There is virtually no loss of income from piracy because the people who pirate the software are either the ones who actually have the intention of buying the product if it's good, or the ones who would have never bought it anyway.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

SunnyD: you're return experiences are 1 in a billion.

Hardly. Several of my friends have no problems either. Don't go in all blown out of proportion demanding a refund because a game sucks. Be reasonable, use one of the many valid tools available to you as a consumer, and you'll walk away happy.

Also, this is one of the most idiotic thing I have seen on these boards in a while: "I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails." you're telling me that box art is indicative of gameplay and quality? gtfo.

And this is exactly my point. You are expecting way too much from any product if you shop that way. I said nothing about quality or the title or quality of gameplay - I said "Does the box say it's a FPS (or MMORPG)". If it's a FPS, and you go around shooting pink chickens in a barnyard, and you use the F1, delete, enter and capslock keys to move around - you're going to hate it because the key layout is shit. But is it a FPS? You bet your ass it is. You're getting a toaster that toasts (see above) - so get over it and stop trying to justify theft as legal.

And what if that toaster doesn't toast well? The box shows a toaster toasting some bread. Mmm, that bread sure looks delicious! You buy the toaster and take it home and try it out. Lo and behold, the toaster barely toasts or only toasts the edges of the bread. Well, it technically toasts, but it does a shitty job. The store won't take it back because the box is opened (usually you can take back toasters, but not games - I will reiterate what others have told you, your return experience is one in a million and is not standard procedure at any retailer I've been to)

I know what kind of car I'm buying at the dealership. That doesn't tell me anything about how that particular car's performance or whether I'll like driving it. That's why I test drive the car. I'll take the car out on the road for a few minutes with a salesman, he'll tell me about all of the features as I experience them (just like what a developer does by delivering a game demo).

As a consumer it's important to me to know that the product I'm buying is worth the money I'm spending on it. Buying a game without knowing about its quality is like throwing $50 away on a mystery box. You've been told that the product inside is a FPS, but you know nothing about its quality until you open the box and play the game. The game could be horrible. Instead of throwing money away on a gamble, it would be wiser to download a demo first and see if that game is actually worth spending money on. It's a poor business practice to ask the consumer to essentially guess at the quality of your merchandise, especially when so many modern games have demos.

 

[spittledip]

I think it is ok as long as you intend to buy the game if you like it and plan to complete it.

 

[ForumMaster]

yes i do think it's ok. if there's no demo, i'll download it, try it and if i like it, support the publisher and buy it.

 

[ShawnD1]

I think it's ok as long as you either buy it or delete it after trying it. We all know that the minimum system requirements on the side of the game box mean literally nothing, so there's really no way of knowing how a game will run until you try it. Example: id Software said that Doom 3 would run on a system with a GeForce 2 video card. I bought that game when I had a Radeon 9600XT video card, and even then it was extremely slow. I feel sorry for anybody who bought into that lie then cried beacuse they wasted $50 on a game that runs at 3fps at lowest settings.

Some games like Bioshock, Doom 3, Quake 4, Quake Wars, Crysis, and Supreme Commander simply do not work on most computers, so it's essential to know if your computer can even play the game before you buy it.

 

[mhouck]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How would you react if the company you want a job with said "Come in and work for us for a week for free so we can see your work ethic"

Of course you would never go for that, yet some how you think it is fine to steal a game because they didn't release a demo?

Actually in sales positions you do have this situation quite a bit. It's called commission and splits. They take no chance on you. It's all in the contract.

I will never buy a game again if I have not read a review, and seen at least actual game play videos. If you don't like the game then you don't buy it. It's like at Best Buy(don't get me started) or EB Games or anyone else that has the games to play in their store. Unfortunately the way PC games are distributed you can't just go into a store and play crysis or the witcher like you can Madden or GTA.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
Piracy naysayers claim that you can't possibly have a successful business model when your product can be obtained for free.

...mmm bottled water. So tasty!

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
This isn't true, sometimes betas get released, but htey are usually marked as betas, the amount of games that are marked as finished products and actually aren't is 1 in <high number>. The last one I can think of is ALLEGEDLY Titan Quest, but frankly I think iron lore is just crying over sour grapes cause their shit sucks.

Meh, I don't buy your numbers but I'm not going to exactly explain my experience in the matters either. They may not necessarily be beta builds, but often times the exact version or build number of the product is a version that the public will NEVER see come retail. This has happened many, many times.

A lot of 0day warez comes from beta or review-only release copies of software which is how it beats retail copies to the store shelves.

 

[Maleficus]

skace: I'm talking about games, not 0day.

 

[Coldkilla]

I'd like to 'try' online before I buy...