Do you think it's okay to pirate a game if a demo is never released?

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai
Yes. Try before you buy is the way to go.

We've had this discussion before - but what happens if you "try" and decide not to buy? You've just taken all the legitimacy out of the ethics of your statement.

not really, you try it, decide it sucks, uninstall it.

decision made.

piracy is only bad if you use it to obtain something you want/enjoy with no intention of paying for it regardless of how much you like it.

This.

... is illegal. There is nothing else in consumer goods (unless explicitly given - more later) that doesn't require you to pay for it, unless it specifically says "try before you buy". Most retailers have generous enough policies that if the item doesn't function like it should, you can return it for an exchange (if materially defective) or refund (if technically defective). Software is the same. If there is no sanctioned "try before you buy" (a demo), then you're plain stealing. It's the same as walking into Walmart, picking up a toaster and saying, "Gee, I think I'll try this for a few days to see if I like it" without stopping at the checkout on the way out. Don't try to say there is no material damages, because there is.

except with 99% of other goods, such as a toaster, you know exactly what you are getting, you see what it will provide right on the box. Without a demo, and even WITH most demos, you don't know what you're getting when you buy a game. you have an IDEA, but it's like getting a birthday gift and hoping you know what it is by the size, there is really no way to tell without opening it up and finding out.

I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails.

For example, you say "well the gameplay sucked, the controls are shit and the story line sucks".
But is it a FPS?
"Well... yes, but it sucked."
But is it a FPS?
"I just said yes..."
Then you got what you expected.

Take the previously mentioned toaster. The box has a picture of a toaster on it. You imply "hey, it toasts things". You take it home, and realize "Oh shit... it doesn't do bagels and english muffins! This toaster is crap!"

But is it a toaster?

You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How would you react if the company you want a job with said "Come in and work for us for a week for free so we can see your work ethic"

Of course you would never go for that, yet some how you think it is fine to steal a game because they didn't release a demo?

it's called a probationary period.

hehe :thumbsup:

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How would you react if the company you want a job with said "Come in and work for us for a week for free so we can see your work ethic"

Of course you would never go for that, yet some how you think it is fine to steal a game because they didn't release a demo?

it's called a probationary period.

hehe :thumbsup:

But you're still getting paid for it. It's not like you have to pay the company back if they don't keep you.

 

[Smilin]

Get a job.

 

[Lithan]

Don't make me equate this to raping your girlfriend because she wants to save herself for marriage. It's too easy.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Take the previously mentioned toaster. The box has a picture of a toaster on it. You imply "hey, it toasts things". You take it home, and realize "Oh shit... it doesn't do bagels and english muffins! This toaster is crap!"

But is it a toaster?

You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

You can take the toaster back for a refund.

Go ahead and try to take a game back for a refund, see what happens.

"was there anything wrong with it?"
no it just sucked
"sorry, exchange due to defective products only on opened software. NEXT!" and you're out the cost for the game. Be it $50 or $10. I don't know about you, but I don't even want to be out $10 for a shitty game.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

The toaster analogy is poor anyway. I mean, you can buy a cheap Chinese toaster and get some POS that doesn't even work right half the time. But at least then you can look and see "Made in China" as a bit of a warning or the brand name being Durabrand or something like that . Although, sometimes Game Studios' name being on the box provides as much of a warning.

At least you can return the toaster though .

Oh and why can't you say that you pirate stuff without getting temp-banned? Seems a bit silly as I don't know why Anandtech allows threads about smoking pot or taking a hit of acid when those are illegal.

 

[jjones]

I've seen too many crappy game releases not to try games before buying. You can take a shirt back to the store if you buy it, get it home, and then notice that one of the sleeves is shorter than the other. You can't take a game back just because its a buggy pos or the gameplay is best described as turd-like.

 

[Lithan]

When you get temp banned for talking about piracy, blame it on the weed and acid, maybe it'll be lifted.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Take the previously mentioned toaster. The box has a picture of a toaster on it. You imply "hey, it toasts things". You take it home, and realize "Oh shit... it doesn't do bagels and english muffins! This toaster is crap!"

But is it a toaster?

You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

You can take the toaster back for a refund.

Go ahead and try to take a game back for a refund, see what happens.

"was there anything wrong with it?"
no it just sucked
"sorry, exchange due to defective products only on opened software. NEXT!" and you're out the cost for the game. Be it $50 or $10. I don't know about you, but I don't even want to be out $10 for a shitty game.

Have you ever told the CSR at the desk "It doesn't work (as advertised)" instead of "It just sucked"? If you're fundamental argument is that you're not getting what you paid for, then you're simply not returning the item correctly. I have never once had a problem returning software to a store.

(gah, you edited it) - So they only exchange opened defective software right? Exchange it, get a new unopened box, then return it. Problem solved.

It's like the Seinfeld episode where he buys a sportcoat, and returns it because he decides he doesn't like it. He was asked why he was returning it, and his reply was "out of spite", and they denied the return.

Also, almost all EULA's say that if you do not agree to the terms of the EULA to return the software to the retailer or manufacturer for a full refund.

The toaster analogy stands, and is fine. Like I said, does it toast? Yup. Is it a FPS (or whatever)? Yup. You're stealing if you pirate, plain and simple.

 

[Pugnate]

Wow, what an eye opener.

You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

No one is forcing you assholes to buy anything. Can't afford it? DON'T BUY IT.

Its no wonder great games like Crysis got such poor receptions from so many in the community. Assholes who pirated the game, finished it, and then tried to justify it.

 

[Thetech]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai
Yes. Try before you buy is the way to go.

We've had this discussion before - but what happens if you "try" and decide not to buy? You've just taken all the legitimacy out of the ethics of your statement.

not really, you try it, decide it sucks, uninstall it.

decision made.

piracy is only bad if you use it to obtain something you want/enjoy with no intention of paying for it regardless of how much you like it.

This.

... is illegal. There is nothing else in consumer goods (unless explicitly given - more later) that doesn't require you to pay for it, unless it specifically says "try before you buy". Most retailers have generous enough policies that if the item doesn't function like it should, you can return it for an exchange (if materially defective) or refund (if technically defective). Software is the same. If there is no sanctioned "try before you buy" (a demo), then you're plain stealing. It's the same as walking into Walmart, picking up a toaster and saying, "Gee, I think I'll try this for a few days to see if I like it" without stopping at the checkout on the way out. Don't try to say there is no material damages, because there is.

I'm not going to make a statement on piracy, but have you ever tried to return software? While It's possible it's not always as easy as it sounds, one usually ends up having to debate with an employee and then one of the managers if one is lucky.

Otherwise one ends up debating with the customer service rep for awhile until they give up and call a manager and then one has to argue their point with them. And then you have to hear the usually we can't accept returns on software because it is eaisly copied, we can't return it to the manufacture, etc. All we can do is exchange it for another copy of the same title.

It's one of the stupidest things, I understand that they have to have restrictions but why would one buy and copy software when they could download it?

 

[Thetech]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How would you react if the company you want a job with said "Come in and work for us for a week for free so we can see your work ethic"

Of course you would never go for that, yet some how you think it is fine to steal a game because they didn't release a demo?

it's called a probationary period.

hehe :thumbsup:

Or being hired under a temp. Contract, and working full time hours with no benefits. Welcome to the workplace under the current economy!

 

[PingSpike]

Plenty of games with demos, not enough time or money. They all go to the bargain bin eventually.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Have you ever told the CSR at the desk "It doesn't work (as advertised)" instead of "It just sucked"? If you're fundamental argument is that you're not getting what you paid for, then you're simply not returning the item correctly. I have never once had a problem returning software to a store.

(gah, you edited it) - So they only exchange opened defective software right? Exchange it, get a new unopened box, then return it. Problem solved.

Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Also, almost all EULA's say that if you do not agree to the terms of the EULA to return the software to the retailer or manufacturer for a full refund.

Nobody abides by the EULA, much less software retailers.


Your toaster analogy is still flawed. Even if it's opened, you can still return it. Hell, if you buy it at walmart, it probably doesn't even need to be the same model of toaster, or even in once piece!

 

[Skott]

its never okay IMO.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Raduque
Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

 

[Maleficus]

What some of you don't seem to realize, is that the majority of these evil capitalist hating pirates would do once you take away the completely reasonable option of TRYING something before you commit your resources to it, is simply not buy them.

There is virtually no loss of income from piracy because the people who pirate the software are either the ones who actually have the intention of buying the product if it's good, or the ones who would have never bought it anyway.

SunnyD: you're return experiences are 1 in a billion.

Also, this is one of the most idiotic thing I have seen on these boards in a while: "I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails." you're telling me that box art is indicative of gameplay and quality? gtfo.

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: Martimus
No. I just won't buy it if I am on the fence about buying it and no demo is available. I have already gotten my identity stolen once, and don't feel like opening myself up to having it happen a second time by using P2P programs.

Tell us where the big bad P2P touched you. I suspect you aren't giving us the whole story either. What was the offending P2P software that you used?

My guess is that you googled for "P2P software" and you downloaded something unsavory. Either way, you didn't know what you were doing and got taken.

Downloading "stuff" from P2P is pretty safe overall, especially if you read the comments of the torrents, many times people will post that such and such torrent is spyware or has a virus.

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: skace
I'm a choad, however I don't like your poll options. See, I would say that warezing a game to test it before purchasing it might actually be a good idea, but I still don't think it is "ok". See the difference? Knowing something is not OK but still doing it as opposed to pretending something is OK by some preconceived sense of entitlement.

It's been said before but a lot of warez titles are based on betas/alphas/early release clients and because of this can often be a disservice to the person using them to decide whether they want to buy the game.

I think it is very important the developers release a GOOD demo in a timely fashion. I would often suggest this be released before the game is out, ala Qtest or something to that respect.

This isn't true, sometimes betas get released, but htey are usually marked as betas, the amount of games that are marked as finished products and actually aren't is 1 in <high number>. The last one I can think of is ALLEGEDLY Titan Quest, but frankly I think iron lore is just crying over sour grapes cause their shit sucks.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Raduque
Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

ummm the moment you open any CD/software its not returnable.

If its defective, they only issue exchanges, not refunds. Ive never heard of anyone that bought a game, had it be defective, and then return it for a refund opened.

Most likely, a Demo will be out if the game is out. If its a super rare game with no demo, and you like it, you should buy it to support that small company. Then on the sequil they can make a proper demo with the revenues.

Chances are if you pirate something your not going to buy it. If you are the type that pirates stuff and then buys it, i believe microsoft themself said, if your going to cheat a software company, cheat them and not the smaller fish.



But im not an advocate of pirating anything. You cheap one part of the machine, the entire machine falls. If i like something i'll go out and buy it to support it. More sales (idealistically) = more RnD = better successor. You cheap the sales, the RnD gets cutted, and the next gen games turns out to be poorly programed like crysis. :X

Im sorry any game that requires a 3000-4000 dollar machine to run almost perfectly is absolute BS to me.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
What some of you don't seem to realize, is that the majority of these evil capitalist hating pirates would do once you take away the completely reasonable option of TRYING something before you commit your resources to it, is simply not buy them.

Exactly - if there's no option to try it legally, then turn the other way.

There is virtually no loss of income from piracy because the people who pirate the software are either the ones who actually have the intention of buying the product if it's good, or the ones who would have never bought it anyway.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

SunnyD: you're return experiences are 1 in a billion.

Hardly. Several of my friends have no problems either. Don't go in all blown out of proportion demanding a refund because a game sucks. Be reasonable, use one of the many valid tools available to you as a consumer, and you'll walk away happy.

Also, this is one of the most idiotic thing I have seen on these boards in a while: "I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails." you're telling me that box art is indicative of gameplay and quality? gtfo.

And this is exactly my point. You are expecting way too much from any product if you shop that way. I said nothing about quality or the title or quality of gameplay - I said "Does the box say it's a FPS (or MMORPG)". If it's a FPS, and you go around shooting pink chickens in a barnyard, and you use the F1, delete, enter and capslock keys to move around - you're going to hate it because the key layout is shit. But is it a FPS? You bet your ass it is. You're getting a toaster that toasts (see above) - so get over it and stop trying to justify theft as legal.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Raduque
Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

ummm the moment you open any CD/software its not returnable.

If its defective, they only issue exchanges, not refunds. Ive never heard of anyone that bought a game, had it be defective, and then return it for a refund opened.

Flat out WRONG. Most every single EULA has a clause that if you do not accept the EULA you may return the title for a full refund. Further, most titles rely on "soft" EULAs, meaning that you can not possibly know what the EULA is until you've opened the package and are at the very least installing the CD.

 

[Maleficus]

And this is exactly my point. You are expecting way too much from any product if you shop that way. I said nothing about quality or the title or quality of gameplay - I said "Does the box say it's a FPS (or MMORPG)". If it's a FPS, and you go around shooting pink chickens in a barnyard, and you use the F1, delete, enter and capslock keys to move around - you're going to hate it because the key layout is shit. But is it a FPS? You bet your ass it is. You're getting a toaster that toasts (see above) - so get over it and stop trying to justify theft as legal.

this is becoming tiring, what are you getting at? are you honestly trying to tell me that because I know the game is an FPS I can make a sound decision as a consumer? are all FPS games the same? should we just make them all First Person Shooter #? No, they all have their quirks and game play elements that make them unique and fun, as well as quality control that make them playable or not. Box art doesn't tell me shit. I'm not getting a 'toaster that toasts', I'm paying for an experience, one whose outcome I have no real way of determining.

Stop for just one second playing the righteous defender of all those terribly mistreated software companies, realize the intent of 'piracy' (bias name anyone?), and see that it is a valid consumer tool when used properly.

The most effective tool for stopping piracy is a simple cd-key. not copy protection, not any of that bullshit. In an atmosphere such as today's where the major selling point is online gameplay, and not one single group TRIES to defeat that, you will see that the point is to provide users with a means to test the product.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai
Yes. Try before you buy is the way to go.

We've had this discussion before - but what happens if you "try" and decide not to buy? You've just taken all the legitimacy out of the ethics of your statement.

not really, you try it, decide it sucks, uninstall it.

decision made.

piracy is only bad if you use it to obtain something you want/enjoy with no intention of paying for it regardless of how much you like it.

This.

... is illegal. There is nothing else in consumer goods (unless explicitly given - more later) that doesn't require you to pay for it, unless it specifically says "try before you buy". Most retailers have generous enough policies that if the item doesn't function like it should, you can return it for an exchange (if materially defective) or refund (if technically defective). Software is the same. If there is no sanctioned "try before you buy" (a demo), then you're plain stealing. It's the same as walking into Walmart, picking up a toaster and saying, "Gee, I think I'll try this for a few days to see if I like it" without stopping at the checkout on the way out. Don't try to say there is no material damages, because there is.

Yeah. I smoke pot occasionally, that's illegal. I drank when I was in high school, that was illegal. I jaywalked earlier today. That was illegal too. I don't give a flying fuck if it's illegal. I have my own moral principles, based on my own experiences, and I fail to see how it should be considered stealing.

There are two things that can happen if a game has no demo.

A. I will never play or purchase it

B. I will try it out, and if I like it, buy it

Between these two options, the publisher/devs stand to make money ONLY from the second choice. If the game is bad and gets uninstalled, nobody loses anything. Nothing gets stolen. It's like reading a book in a bookstore.

However, if a game offers something unique, CoD4's multiplayer, Crysis's amazing graphics and modability, Bioshock's atmosphere, then it's worth purchasing for the most part. I got burned by Bioshock though... I bought it on launch day, played it for a while, discovered it was a steaming pile of shit, and I'll never finish it. I should have pirated it, but I bought into the whole 'spiritual successor to System Shock' thing, and lost $50 on a gamble.

Too many games have high promise, yet turn out shit. I was really looking forward to Jericho, but it turned out to be a worthless console port. Same thing for Gears of War. Too many 'good' games are really just steaming piles of shit wrapped in pretty graphics.

Originally posted by: Pugnate
Wow, what an eye opener.

You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

No one is forcing you assholes to buy anything. Can't afford it? DON'T BUY IT.

Its no wonder great games like Crysis got such poor receptions from so many in the community. Assholes who pirated the game, finished it, and then tried to justify it.

I bought Crysis even after the image leaked a few weeks early. The reason Crysis got such a bad recepting is because nobody thought they had a computer that could run it.

Piracy is NOT ruining PC gaming. It may have a small impact, but it's not the main, or even a major cause.

So what's the difference between pirating a game and not buying it? There is none from where the publisher is concerned.

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Raduque
Problem not solved. Everywhere I've exchanged a game requires you to get a new copy off the shelf and bring it to the desk, and they open it. Bam, it's now non-returnable.

Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

Around here, you can exchange a game ONLY for the same game, never for credit or refund. And if you try to return the sealed new one (which is illegally bypassing corporate policy. hypocrite much? :roll they just look at your reciept and say, oh this is a return, GTFO.

Oh, and I'm calling bullshit on your return stories. The company policies of the retailers around here (Best Buy, Circuit City, EB Games) all specify opened software can only be exchanged for the same software. Unless the company policies vary greatly from state to state, bullshit.