JEDIYoda
Lifer
Why should a single word be mine?? The Virtual Jewish Library does so much better......but that's OK...you had to be critical of something...since it is hard to argue with the truth!
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Do you consider Israel a good country
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Caravaggio
Senior member
Why does that surprise you? It often takes decades for the whole truth to emerge into properly balanced history.
It took over 40 years before we knew the full extent of Stalin's "gulag archipelago"
It took over 50 years before we knew the full extent of French Vichy collaboration with the Nazis.
It took 37 years for the British to confirm that the Derry "Bloody Sunday Massacre" murdered unarmed protesters.
It took 40 years for Israel to confirm that it had a nuclear weapons programme.
And, 66 years after Israel came into being it has still not acknowledged that it did so by the use of terrorist bombings, targeted murders and mass ethnic cleansing.
Fortunately for history, some courageous Israeli historians have been given access to the original IDF files and have published the truth, for all to read.
This is the book that you dare not read, confront or even acknowledge:
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe. (2006) ISBN10:1-85168-476-0
Your reading for today begins on page 57. Read the section on the Hagana attack on the village of Khisas in which 15 villagers (5 children) were murdered on 18th December 1947. The Hagana then blew-up the houses. How similar to today's methods don't you think?
This attack was reported in the New York Times, so don't try to use your nasty weasel words to deny it happened.
Get a grip on history, stop living in your Zionist bubble of denial.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand your optimism. Why would the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab I would never make peace with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country"
David Ben Gurion, (Israel's first Prime Minister) 1956.
Even you would have to agree that Ben Gurion carries a bit more clout that this non-existent "John of Sheffield", you keep quoting. What peer-reviewed books has John of Sheffield published? Remind me?
JEDIYoda
Lifer
That does not matter......you know little about Bible History and the significance Jerusalem holds for the Jewish people....
Oyeve
Lifer
Not much. The only thing the jews care about jerusalem is that they got kicked out and came back. other than that the city holds very little for the jews. the city is a power-play for them IMO.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
You really have no clue just how important Jerusalem is to us......again your speaking from what perspective....your preconceived ideas...
norseamd
Lifer
Seems that Jerusalem is not the original holy place for the Israelites.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
Maybe to you....but then again.....your not Jewish so what would you know about Jewish Holy sites..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
http://aristean.org/post042.htm
http://www.shamar.org/articles/what-is-so-important-about-jerusalem.php#.U-FzRNFOV9A
In 586 BCE, on 9 Av, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the First Temple. Two thousand five hundred fifty-three years later, on June 7, 1967 (28 Iyar 5727), during the Six-Day War, Israel regained control of biblical east Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount. Israel, for the first time in more than 2,500 years, was in complete control of the entire city. Within a few days, Defense Minister Moshe Dayan gave control of the Temple Mount back to the Moslems, while maintaining Israeli sovereignty over it. Thirteen years later, Israel adopted its "Basic Law: Jerusalem", declaring, "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel".
If the above had happened in any other nation, it wouldn't have garnered much attention from the rest of the world. But it didn't happen in just any other nation. It happened in the nation of Israel. Because of this, the entire world is in an uproar.
On November 29, 1947 — six months before the declaration of the State of Israel — the United Nations passed Resolution 181 (II). One of the main points of this resolution was the establishment of Jerusalem as a "corpus separatum" ("body of separate covenant"). This means, basically, that the UN separated the city of Jerusalem from the rest of the world and created a separate covenant for it. This has never been done before in all of history. In 1950 the UN adopted the "Statute for the City of Jerusalem" setting forth the regulations for the administration of the city of Jerusalem by the United Nations. It would be an international city; it would not be linked to, or controlled by, any nation or government except the United Nations.
Why would the world be so concerned with an ancient city like Jerusalem? It is located approximately 27 miles inland from the coast. It has no natural resources. Most of it is built upon the ruins of previous structures. What makes it so important that the United Nations would set it apart from any other city or nation in the entire world?
The interesting aspect is that Jerusalem has never been important to the nations unless it was important to Israel. When Israel started to return to the Land in large numbers during the late 1800's, the nations began to stir. It was just a little more than 50 years later that the UN adopted its "Statute for the City of Jerusalem".
The importance of Jerusalem lies in its spiritual aspect, not its physical makeup. It is a city that lives and responds to the Holy One of Israel. God declares to Ezekiel how He had mercy on Jerusalem, how He blessed her and made a covenant with her (Ezekiel 16.6-14). Jeremiah laments of her misery and suffering after God judged her (Lamentations 1.1-22). Yet God declared that He will not forget Jerusalem; He will establish an everlasting covenant with her (Ezekiel 16.60-63). Jerusalem is the center of the earth, according to Yahweh (Ezekiel 5.5). Its very existence continually proves that there is a God and that He will judge every man and hold him accountable for his deeds.
God has declared that Jerusalem is the place from which He will reign: "At that time, they shall call Jerusalem 'Throne of Yahweh'"" (Jeremiah 3.17a). Yahweh said He was "very jealous for Jerusalem" (Zechariah 1.14). Many of the prophets spoke of Yahweh's return to Jerusalem: "'I graciously return to Jerusalem. My House shall be built in her'—declares the Lord of Hosts" (Zechariah 1.16a; see also Zechariah 2.12; 8.3). More than 4,000 years ago Abraham understood the importance of the city when he declared concerning Mount Moriah, in the midst of Jerusalem, "On the mount of Yahweh there is vision." (Genesis 22.14).
Yet Yahweh also declared that Jerusalem would be a problem for the nations of the world: "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a bowl of reeling for the peoples all around. Judah shall be caught up in the siege upon Jerusalem, when all the nations of the earth gather against her. In that day, I will make Jerusalem a stone for all the peoples to lift; all who lift it shall injure themselves." (Zechariah 12:2-3). Yahweh also gave warning of His judgment against those who come against Jerusalem: "In that day I will all but annihilate all the nations that came up against Jerusalem." (Zechariah 12:9); "As for those peoples that warred against Jerusalem, Yahweh will smite them with this plague: Their flesh shall rot away while they stand on their feet; their eyes shall rot away in their sockets; and their tongues shall rot away in their mouths." (Zechariah 14:12).
Jerusalem is important to Yahweh, the Mighty One of Israel. It's the place that He has chosen to dwell in the midst of His creation. It is also the place where He will judge the nations.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
links to support your misguided bloviations??
JEDIYoda
Lifer
No your an idiot if you think that Jerusalem is the only sacred site that the Jews have.....
The Jews will never give up Jerusalem for Peace..that will never ever happen...
The Jews will never agree to allowing the UN to take control of Jerusalem and opening it up to all people -- never ever happen!
You can deflect all day long with links to try to prove your point....but Jerusalem is what it is.......and Bible prophecy is what it is.....for the Jews Jerusalem is everything!
BTW -- even in your links it admits there is no consensus among scholars...rofl.....
Come back when you have read enough to understand that some of these topics are very complicated and are not cut and dry!!
The simple version -- there are other religious/Holy sites....but none are as important as Jerusalem.......but that's Ok -- you can keep posting like a fool!
_Rick_
Diamond Member
Best use of a Schwarzenegger quote there, that I've seen in a while. Props.
Regarding Israel: I'd respect it more, if it were a secular democracy, instead of a fundamentalist quasi-republic, that grabs land more regularly than post-communist Russia.
Caravaggio
Senior member
No, you are the idiot if you think only Jews hold Jerusalem to be their sacred site. Read Simon Sebag Montefiore, Jerusalem, in the list below..
Yeti, you are a complete hypocrite,, a nebbish twit, I notice that you ask other posters for links to supporting evidence for their opinions, yet when I ask YOU for evidence you can offer only shameful Zionist racist sites such as "Masada2000" which advocates the genocide of Arabs.
You then tell me that you "do not need to show" your scholarly sources.
You have none.
Here are some of mine
If you know little or nothing about the history of how Palestine was lost and Israel came into being, try some of the following books:-
Avi Shlaim “Israel and Palestine” (2009)
Ilan Pappe “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” (2006)
Karl Sabbagh “The British in Palestine 1917-1948. (2002)
Victor Kattan “From Coexistence to Conquest:International Law and the Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1891-1949”(2009)
Simon Sebag Montefiore “Jerusalem: The Biography”.(2011)(The antidote to those who believe that Jerusalem is ‘naturally and exclusively’ a Jewish city)
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt “The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy” (2007). (this book explains why Israel receives the greatest part of US foreign aid)
Greg Philo and Mike Berry “Bad News from Israel” (2004)(Good analysis of the Israeli propaganda machine.)
Joan Peters “From Time Immemorial” (1984)(The classic Zionist myth-history of Palestine)
Norman Finkelstein “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestinian Conflict” (1984)
(NF’s complete textual demolition of Peters’ book)
Shlomo Sand “The Invention of the Jewish People” (2009) (Scholarly, and witty, attack on the notion of ‘genetically continuous Judaism’😉
Noam Chomsky “Fateful Triangle”.(2000) Good history on the birth of Israel and the growth of Israeli ‘exceptionalism’😉
Niall Ferguson (1999) “The House of Rothschild” (see especially Volume 2, part three, esp. chp. 14.A good history of the impact of the Balfour Declaration.Includes interesting revelations about opposition to the idea of a Jewish National homeland within the Board of Deputies of British Jews.Shows the British Rothschilds were split on this issue.)
Alan Dershowitz “The case for Israel” (2003)Similar in tone to “From Time Immemorial” by Peters.Shares some of the same quotes.
Norman Finkelstein “Beyond Chutzpah” (2005).Critique of Dershowitz, above.
EyalWeizman “HollowLand” (2007 and 2012) ( Good analysis of Israel’s stratgey of occupation)
Francesca Stavrakopoulou “Land of Our Fathers:The Roles of Ancestor Worship in Biblical Land Claims”(2010) (She demonstrates the absurdity of the notion that ‘descendants of someone with a faith a bit like yours, who once lived in a place thousands of miles away and then left it, two millennia ago, still have a claim to the land they left).Try that in court…
Eran Elhaik (2013)“The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry”in Genome Biology and Evolution.Vol 5, pp61-74.
(this new research shows that the gene mix of Ashkenazi Jews proves the Khazar Hypothesis and refutes the claim of some Jews to a Palestinian/ Rhenish origin.)
__________________________________________________________
“Another historical irony: there were times in Europe when anyone who argued that all Jews belong to a nation of alien origin would have been classified as an anti-semite. Nowadays, anyone who dares to suggest that the people known in the world as Jews (as distinct from today’s modern Israelis) have never been and are still not, a 'people or a nation' is immediately denounced as a Jew-hater.”
(Shlomo Sand, 2009.‘The Invention of the Jewish People’😉
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JEDIYoda
Lifer
Nobody said that did they?? Where did I say that???
That still does not change the fact that we will never give up Jerusalem...
The Jews will never give up Jerusalem for Peace..that will never ever happen...
The Jews will never agree to allowing the UN to take control of Jerusalem and opening it up to all people -- never ever happen!
You can deflect all day long with links to try to prove your point....but Jerusalem is what it is.......and Bible prophecy is what it is.....for the Jews Jerusalem is everything!
Again Harebec said it best -- You wrote a lot of nothing.
I meant what I said, do what you want with it.
Smart FM.
Invent dangers - do not get complacent. Let your guard down and get wiped out.
He knew that until the Arab nations were actually beaten down; Israel would not be allowed any peace.
Egypt, Jordan and to an extent Lebanon have realized such.
Now maybe if Iran and her proxies would learn from history; there would be a lot less bloodshed and the entire area could prosper.
But you still have the radial Arab nations which manipulate the poorer groups with promises that they know can not be kept but watching the cannon fodder is great for their own egos.
Invent dangers - do not get complacent. Let your guard down and get wiped out.
He knew that until the Arab nations were actually beaten down; Israel would not be allowed any peace.
Egypt, Jordan and to an extent Lebanon have realized such.
Now maybe if Iran and her proxies would learn from history; there would be a lot less bloodshed and the entire area could prosper.
But you still have the radial Arab nations which manipulate the poorer groups with promises that they know can not be kept but watching the cannon fodder is great for their own egos.
Caravaggio
Senior member
I am assuming that you know Jerusalem. Remind me, what is that huge structure in the old city, built on high ground, with the 120 foot minaret and the vast golden dome?
Are you really going to pull-down the Al Aqsa mosque because you cannot share a place sacred to several religions?
May I ask where your great-grandfather came from? My guess is that it was either Poland, Belarus, Ukraine or Lithuania. If I am wrong, please correct me.
squarecut1
Platinum Member
Israel is probably the most clever country in the world, not in a good way of course.
You have to be very clever to be the root cause of so much mayhem in the world and yet remain virtually immune to it. Got to hand it to them. No other country comes even close in this regard.
You have to be very clever to be the root cause of so much mayhem in the world and yet remain virtually immune to it. Got to hand it to them. No other country comes even close in this regard.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
As usual you ask a question based on ignorance........
Do some research before you embarrass yourself....
It does not matter where my great grandfather came from.....
I will say it one last time.....
It doesn`t matter what you think or any other nonsense.....
The Jews will never give up Jerusalem for Peace..that will never ever happen...
The Jews will never agree to allowing the UN to take control of Jerusalem and opening it up to all people -- never ever happen!.
Might the Jews share Jerusalem.....who knows but as far as I know that is another issue that must be dealt with in order for their to be Peace!!
JEDIYoda
Lifer
You have been hood winked by Hamas....so go figure!!
Caravaggio
Senior member
Don't be a gilded prat, I'm the one with the academic references, you are the racist bigot with the website link which calls for genocide of Arabs, remember? Want more references?
If that is the case then your country will never be at peace. But I suppose that you can always use your American identity and your second (American) passport, if things get too hot? Shame the Sabras can't do that.
Puzzled why you are so embarrassed by your grand-father's origins?
Would it weaken your claimed 'right' to carry out more ethnic cleansing, if everyone knew where you came from?
_________________________________________________________
JohnofShenfield said
"Judaism is a religion, it is not a unique genome, nor is it a right to land"
JEDIYoda
Lifer
puzzled why you would need to know.....
Unless you want to taunt me and try to degrade where I was born a sif the male has anything to do with me being a Jew....
Caravaggio
Senior member
I don't want to 'taunt' you at all. I was interested in your ethno-cultural background and your multiple national identities. Not your Jewish religious commitment.
I was trying to establish why you have such strong feelings about keeping Jerusalem a Zionist-only centre.
You saw my question as intrusive and you are quite at liberty not to answer it. I respect your decision.
But I am allowed to speculate on the basis of what you have told us on these threads. You are clearly a Jewish Zionist of firm opinion. I imagine that you are an Ashkenazi of East European background whose family emigrated to the US somewhere between 1880 and 1914. I have every sympathy for that decision, if that was the case. If you were from an old Carolina Jewish family of the 1830's your use of language would be less 'modern'
What I was hoping to discuss, but this project might have to be put on hold, is why you think of Jerusalem as somehow 'yours' when I imagine that your family has such strong and long, European roots.
Gene studies, (Osterer, 2011, Elhaik 2013) show that you probably have more genes in common with me than with Palestinians, the real Middle-Easterners.
Yet you swallow this Zionist line that a coastal strip of land in the Mediterranean is somehow home.
If a family lives in Poland or Belarus since the great Khazarian Jewish conversion of the early Middle Ages, why would they now long for an imaginary 'home' over a thousand miles away? That was Theo Herzl's invention, I guess?
All modern hominids have descended from African progenitors who crossed to Europe, via the Middle East many thousands of years ago. Neanderthals lived in the Middle East 90,000 years ago, long before Judaism, and they buried their dead there.
Since we both share Neanderthal genes (see work of C. Stringer in the journal Nature), should we not both claim "Jerusalem as the Neanderthal Capital"?
Where do you want to start history?
-___________________________
"We are all mutts"
Jon Entine.( from a review of Harry Osterer's "a Genetic History of the Jewish People. Pub. 2012)
______________________________
Judaism is a religion, not a unique genome, nor a title to someone's land.
I
SandEagle
Lifer
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