Do we really need guns?

[Mxylplyx]

And I'm perfectly happy to allow people like the victim and Mxylplyx to prefer to deal with fear of thugs than deal with their evidently greater fear that someone else may own a firearm. Just like people sign "do not resuscitate" orders I wish there were some way they could be distinguished in public so that they could be assured no one would intervene on their behalf with a firearm if they were being victimized.

God bless you sir, for being the silent guardian among us sheeple who foolishly walk around in blissful ignorance of the fact that only reason I'm not being victimized on a daily basis is because criminals think I MIGHT be packing, or that there are heroes like you among us who are ready to spring to action at a moments notice. I bet you do a sweep under the bed every night just to be sure, dont you? Never can be too safe!!

This constant fear you live in is your own burden. Don't assume others are obliged to live with it.

 

[Nebor]

Ahh yes, I forgot about the constant stream of stories in the paper of young women bravely fighting off gangs of attackers in parking garages. Perhaps you could share a few? I'll promise you I could probably produce 1000 examples of guns being used in the commission of a crime for every one you produce of a gun preventing one. What shit hole do you live in that justifies this kind of fear?



That statement is pure bullshit. I think the real discussion here is why are you so afraid. I think Moonbeam is onto something with his comment above. The illusion of safety provided by a gun is just that, an illusion.

Please explain to me police protective details, the Secret Service, Department of State Security and the Capital Police, all of whom exist almost exclusively to provide protection (safety) with guns.

What a ridiculous argument.

 

[Mxylplyx]

So you're talking about the government eliminating it's guns?

I think a worthy goal is the elimination of all guns, with the exception of maybe long barreled rifles for hunting and sport, from civil society. This includes regular police. See England or Australia for an example.

 

[Nebor]

God bless you sir, for being the silent guardian among us sheeple who foolishly walk around in blissful ignorance of the fact that only reason I'm not being victimized on a daily basis is because criminals think I MIGHT be packing, or that there are heroes like you among us who are ready to spring to action at a moments notice. I bet you do a sweep under the bed every night just to be sure, dont you? Never can be too safe!!

This constant fear you live in is your own burden. Don't assume others are obliged to live with it.

Deterence is a real thing when it comes to firearms in the population's hands. Surveys of prisoners show that they are far more concerned about armed citizens than they are about police. And no one is getting stabbed to death on public transit while people stand and watch in Dallas or Houston, if you get my drift.

 

[Nebor]

I think a worthy goal is the elimination of all guns, with the exception of maybe long barreled rifles for hunting and sport, from civil society. This includes regular police. See England or Australia for an example.

Like the English police standing around with submachine guns at Heathrow?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Please explain to me police protective details, the Secret Service, Department of State Security and the Capital Police, all of whom exist almost exclusively to provide protection (safety) with guns.

What a ridiculous argument.

Take a stroll down to your local gun shop and see what all they have hanging on the wall for sale, and you'll have your answer as to why such measures are required in a country such as ours. Most people are too shortsighted to see that it doesn't have to be this way.

 

[Nebor]

Take a stroll down to your local gun shop and see what all they have hanging on the wall for sale, and you'll have your answer as to why such measures are required in a country such as ours. Most people are too shortsighted to see that it doesn't have to be this way.

Most people want it this way. I'll take a 1% chance of dying by gunfire every day if it came along with a guarantee that I won't be robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, imprisoned, or raped over a 0% chance of dying by gunfire every day but no recourse against the above aggressions.

And as it stands, by daily chance of dying by gunfire is less than 1%. And I'm extraordinarily unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime while my Glock 33 is inside my waistband. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Like the English police standing around with submachine guns at Heathrow?

How would you explain the difference in the murder rate per capita between the US and UK?

I'll present a few options

1. They have a superior culture
2. They are more polite
3. Their generous social safety net prevents cycles of endemic violence in impoverished communities
4. They have a small fraction of the gun ownership rate that we do
5. Their knives are dull

I suspect you'll reflexively eliminate #4 as having anything to do with the difference, so please, feel free to comment on this list, or add your own.

 

[Darwin333]

Do we really need guns? Don't you think there are too many crimes involving gun violence? Maybe it would be better to ban firearms completely? It's not like we really need guns for self-defense. I would only use a gun to protect myself only if a criminal had a gun too. It's pretty obviously that the number of gun involved crimes would decrease drastically if the criminals weren't be able to obtain guns legally.

Except that most criminals don't obtain guns legally because they are criminals.

Self defense is not the only reason we need guns either.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Most people want it this way. I'll take a 1% chance of dying by gunfire every day if it came along with a guarantee that I won't be robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, imprisoned, or raped over a 0% chance of dying by gunfire every day but no recourse against the above aggressions.

And as it stands, by daily chance of dying by gunfire is less than 1%. And I'm extraordinarily unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime while my Glock 33 is inside my waistband. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

I hate to break it to you, but your Glock 33 in your waistband makes you and your family CONSIDERABLY more likely to be the victims of a violent death. I know, I know. You and every other gun owner thinks the statistics somehow don't apply to you because you are a responsible gun owner. Every incident you see on the news of a kid killing themselves with daddy's gun was someone who thought themselves a responsible gun owner, until they weren't.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Like the English police standing around with submachine guns at Heathrow?

"While some in London were issued with revolvers prior to 1936, from that date only trained officers at the rank of sergeant or above were issued with guns, and even then only if they could demonstrate a good reason for requiring one.

Today only a small proportion of officers are authorised to use firearms. Latest Home Office figures show there were just 6,653 officers authorised to use firearms in England and Wales - about 5% of the total number."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19641398

 

[Mxylplyx]

"While some in London were issued with revolvers prior to 1936, from that date only trained officers at the rank of sergeant or above were issued with guns, and even then only if they could demonstrate a good reason for requiring one.

Today only a small proportion of officers are authorised to use firearms. Latest Home Office figures show there were just 6,653 officers authorised to use firearms in England and Wales - about 5% of the total number."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19641398

To follow that up, I found this interesting fact.

American police killed more people in March (111) than the entire UK police have killed since 1900

Now at what point do we stop and take stock in the absurdity of statistics like this, and stop pretending that guns add any value to our society, in the hands of police or civilians?

 

[ivwshane]

When people like Mxylplyx say that they want a ban on guns what is the problem they are wanting to solve? I am assuming it is people killing each other.



She had it right, banning abortion was not helping, supporting contraception is the correct answer to the problem of abortion. The problem was never that women wanted abortions, but that women were having unwanted pregnancies.

In the same way banning guns is not going to fix the problem of people killing each other. We have to solve the problem at it's core. Banning guns is putting a bandaid on an arterial bleed, it might slow it down but the patient is still bleeding out.

We need to figure out why people are wanting to kill each other, and solve that problem.

I agree!

 

[Enigmoid]

I think what people are forgetting in this argument about guns and the US is that guns are simply not the problem.

The completely fucked up view that Americans have toward guns and 'protection' and 'my property and freedom' is the problem.

Its the 'you are on my property so I'm going to fucking shoot you instead of exploring alternative actions' attitude that is the problem. The attitude in this day in age where you need guns for protection from other people (who also have guns so good luck) and from the police (who end up armed to the teeth and are forced to act aggressively because the civilian population is rolling in guns) is really outdated.

Getting rid of guns won't solve this problem.

 

[Nebor]

I hate to break it to you, but your Glock 33 in your waistband makes you and your family CONSIDERABLY more likely to be the victims of a violent death. I know, I know. You and every other gun owner thinks the statistics somehow don't apply to you because you are a responsible gun owner. Every incident you see on the news of a kid killing themselves with daddy's gun was someone who thought themselves a responsible gun owner, until they weren't.

I don't have a family. I've carried a firearm most of my adult life, on duty, overseas and in my personal life and never had any sort of accident. Only a tiny percentage of firearm owners have accidents (fatal or otherwise.)

 

[JSt0rm]

we already have 300 million guns in this country. This is classic pandoras box. It is open and there is no fixing it. In britain the cops dont kill people because the people dont have guns. Over here every cop is twitchy as fuck because they think they are about to get shot at every moment because of "training".

 

[Mxylplyx]

I don't have a family. I've carried a firearm most of my adult life, on duty, overseas and in my personal life and never had any sort of accident. Only a tiny percentage of firearm owners have accidents (fatal or otherwise.)

Pointing out the chances are small does not invalidate my point. You are LESS safe with that gun in your possession. I understand if that's hard to wrap your head around.

 

[Nebor]

Pointing out the chances are small does not invalidate my point. You are LESS safe with that gun in your possession. I understand if that's hard to wrap your head around.

It's impossible to wrap my head around, as someone that's been in a few gunfights.

 

[Darwin333]

Take a stroll down to your local gun shop and see what all they have hanging on the wall for sale, and you'll have your answer as to why such measures are required in a country such as ours. Most people are too shortsighted to see that it doesn't have to be this way.

Do you really think they leave all those guns at home when they visit countries like England or Australia?

 

[Darwin333]

Pointing out the chances are small does not invalidate my point. You are LESS safe with that gun in your possession. I understand if that's hard to wrap your head around.

The VAST majority of crimes prevented with guns by civilians and police alike are done without firing a shot. Most civilians are happy enough to leave the area and see little point in filing a police report.

You see the badguys don't want to die anymore than you do. Simply brandishing a firearm generally makes them flee and frankly it makes perfect sense. Why in the world would a badguy want to tussle with an armed person or try to rape an armed woman when there are plenty of unarmed people they can mess with and not have to worry about getting ventilated in the process.

During the weeks following Hurricane Katrina you were either armed or you were a victim. I personally know people who were robbed of not only property but precious supplies that could not be replaced at the time. I know a guy who was forced at gunpoint to watch two men rape his wife. OTOH I was never personally accosted during the entire ordeal, there were a few times that a group of assholes were coming my way but when they saw the shotgun slung over my shoulder and the holstered pistol on my side they changed directions very quickly. The gun saved my ass and I never once fired a shot in anger. Of course those incidents don't go into any stats because I never filed a police report, hell there wasn't a police to file a report with at the time.

If I had to guess my guns saved my ass dozens of times just in those few weeks and to date my guns have not shot or hurt a single person which obviously includes myself and my family. That's a real life stat and not some made up bullshit stat so thank you but I'll be keeping my guns. I also support your right to not own any guns and even put a big ole sign in your front yard saying that you are not a gun owner.

 

[Mxylplyx]

It seems a common trend here is that guns beget guns. Some of you seem so caught up in that cycle that you refuse to see a way out, or simply don't care.

 

[ivwshane]

I think what people are forgetting in this argument about guns and the US is that guns are simply not the problem.

The completely fucked up view that Americans have toward guns and 'protection' and 'my property and freedom' is the problem.

Its the 'you are on my property so I'm going to fucking shoot you instead of exploring alternative actions' attitude that is the problem. The attitude in this day in age where you need guns for protection from other people (who also have guns so good luck) and from the police (who end up armed to the teeth and are forced to act aggressively because the civilian population is rolling in guns) is really outdated.

Getting rid of guns won't solve this problem.

Wouldn't that attitude change though if people no longer had a gun to back them up? It's pretty easy to tell someone to get the fuck off my property with a gun to their head but when there is no gun it's a lot harder to say it and be able to back it up.

 

[Nebor]

It seems a common trend here is that guns beget guns. Some of you seem so caught up in that cycle that you refuse to see a way out, or simply don't care.

You don't seem to understand that we like the cycle. We live by the gun.

 

[ivwshane]

It seems a common trend here is that guns beget guns. Some of you seem so caught up in that cycle that you refuse to see a way out, or simply don't care.

When you are ideologically driven it's hard to see any other viewpoint but your own. This forum proves it.

 

[ivwshane]

You don't seem to understand that we like the cycle. We live by the gun.

Which is fine if guns didn't affect people who don't live by the gun but they do.