Do we really need guns?

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I've never understood the obsession with guns in the USA. But it is what it is.

 

[Genx87]

We don't need guns for personal use, no. The primary arguments for them are self defense and to overthrow the government or some such nonsense.

Studies show that guns don't make their owners more safe, so the first argument is unconvincing. The second argument of a citizen insurgency against the government I find laughable on its face.

I wish gun rights advocates would stop trying to invent reasons why we NEED guns and just admit that they WANT guns. Wanting guns is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

I find the argument they cant be used to fight a tyrannical govt also laughable. Yeah, I can imagine your predictable response. The citizens would stand little chance against the US military. But that argument acts like Iraq and Afghanistan never happened, nor the revolutionary or civil war.

Now I would take arguments about disarming the population more serious if those pushing that agenda also pushed to disarm the state. But we both know that isnt how it works. If we are going to compare body counts as a reason why we should take guns away from people. The state blows citizens out of the water in that metric. No pun intended.

 

[Genx87]

Need vs. want is moot, that's not how rights work. Citizens aren't required to establish "need" for asserting the right to vote, free speech, not self-incriminate, etc. and you'd probably be pretty insulted if I asked you to do so. If you want proof, go up to a black person and ask them what their "need" is to not be enslaved and tell us how that goes. "Stop trying to invent reasons why you NEED to not be enslaved and just admit you don't WANT to be enslaved" would be a fun thing to say in a ghetto neighborhood.

Agreed. If we had to prove why we need these rights in order to retain them. A lot of our rights can be swept aside for valid public safety reasons or political expediency. It is just an asinine way to approach dismantling our constitution. We would be giving away power and individual liberty to the govt for little in return.

 

[Mxylplyx]

This country would be better off, and the murder rate would drop DRASTICALLY if guns simply disappeared from this country. If it were that simple I would fully support pressing the magic button to make them all go away. There is no cost/benefit analysis that could possibly support the claim that firearms are a net benefit to our society, with the real human costs in blood far outweighing any utility value or vague notion of "freedom" that they offer us.

Now obviously there is no magic button, but a multi-decade effort to decrease firearm ownership in this country would be a worthy goal, starting with the serious curtailment in the manufacture of new firearms and restrictions on the supply of ammunition, perhaps followed by a long running gun buyback program.

Yeah yeah, I know. This makes me a freedom hating communist, even though I personally own 4 guns. I don't suffer the cognitive dissonance about the true societal value of guns like many gun nuts do.

 

[glenn1]

This country would be better off, and the murder rate would drop DRASTICALLY if guns simply disappeared from this country. If it were that simple I would fully support pressing the magic button to make them all go away. There is no cost/benefit analysis that could possibly support the claim that firearms are a net benefit to our society, with the real human costs in blood far outweighing any utility value or vague notion of "freedom" that they offer us.

Now obviously there is no magic button, but a multi-decade effort to decrease firearm ownership in this country would be a worthy goal, starting with the serious curtailment in the manufacture of new firearms and restrictions on the supply of ammunition, perhaps followed by a long running gun buyback program.

Yeah yeah, I know. This makes me a freedom hating communist, even though I personally own 4 guns. I don't suffer the cognitive dissonance about the true societal value of guns like many gun nuts do.

If you don't live in an urban environment and use your guns to protect your family from bears or wolves it's hard to say guns don't provide net benefit. Certainly people in Alaska would prefer using a rifle than a rock when a grizzly comes to visit.

Which again points back to the value of federalism in this county and why these discussions should include a huge helping of MYOB. The argument on firearms is different in Montana than it is in Manhattan, and even in the later you can't simply wish away the rights of others simply because it makes you feel more comfortable.

 

[Mxylplyx]

If you don't live in an urban environment and use your guns to protect your family from bears or wolves it's hard to say guns don't provide net benefit. Certainly people in Alaska would prefer using a rifle than a rock when a grizzly comes to visit.

Which again points back to the value of federalism in this county and why these discussions should include a huge helping of MYOB. The argument on firearms is different in Montana than it is in Manhattan, and even in the later you can't simply wish away the rights of others simply because it makes you feel more comfortable.

If in the same vain as my magic button comment, if a gun manufactured for use in Montana could not be used anywhere outside Montana, then we could keep pretending that the needs of a rancher in Montana do not impact the needs of the residents in inner city Chicago to live without fear. I guess we both like to pretend.

It's also about time people such as yourself stop assuming that your "right" to keep an arsenal of firearms is inalienable. This "right" wasnt granted to you by god, it was enshrined into a document written by MEN in another century, and can, and hopefully eventually will, be revoked.

 

[SMOGZINN]

If in the same vain as my magic button comment, if a gun manufactured for use in Montana could not be used anywhere outside Montana, then we could keep pretending that the needs of a rancher in Montana do not impact the needs of the residents in inner city Chicago to live without fear. I guess we both like to pretend.

It's also about time people such as yourself stop assuming that your "right" to keep an arsenal of firearms is inalienable. This "right" wasnt granted to you by god, it was enshrined into a document written by MEN in another century, and can, and hopefully eventually will, be revoked.

The problem is not the guns, and revoking a right to them will not do much to stop the gun violence. The problem is in a society that glorifies violence. Instead of trying to get the guns banned it is the society you should be trying to change.

 

[sm625]

As long as there are people who are always trying to take away your basic freedoms, there will always be a need for guns.

 

[Nebor]

This country would be better off, and the murder rate would drop DRASTICALLY if guns simply disappeared from this country. If it were that simple I would fully support pressing the magic button to make them all go away. There is no cost/benefit analysis that could possibly support the claim that firearms are a net benefit to our society, with the real human costs in blood far outweighing any utility value or vague notion of "freedom" that they offer us.

Now obviously there is no magic button, but a multi-decade effort to decrease firearm ownership in this country would be a worthy goal, starting with the serious curtailment in the manufacture of new firearms and restrictions on the supply of ammunition, perhaps followed by a long running gun buyback program.

Yeah yeah, I know. This makes me a freedom hating communist, even though I personally own 4 guns. I don't suffer the cognitive dissonance about the true societal value of guns like many gun nuts do.

This is an easy argument to make for a young, able-bodied male. In your gun-free world, the strong rule. An elderly couple is forced to watch their door be kicked in with no recourse. A young woman watches a group of men surround her in a parking garage and there's nothing she can do.

You're correct in saying that there would be fewer deaths, but the increase in other crimes would likely be substantial. And it's hard to assign a metric to people who must live in fear of thugs for their entire lives.

 

[Jaepheth]

Yes. Too many things around these parts need shootin' (Coyotes and boar mostly)

 

[lotus503]

The problem is not the guns, and revoking a right to them will not do much to stop the gun violence. The problem is in a society that glorifies violence. Instead of trying to get the guns banned it is the society you should be trying to change.

I agree with this, Switzerland, Canada have guns but a fraction of the gun violence.

 

[TheSlamma]

The same bill that takes away guns better also mandate all cops must be civil and not have an ego that makes their trigger finger twitch, especially when teens or peoples backs are in the gun sights.

 

[Jaepheth]

The problem is not the guns, and revoking a right to them will not do much to stop the gun violence. The problem is in a society that glorifies violence. Instead of trying to get the guns banned it is the society you should be trying to change.

We could make Dr Who serials a mandatory part of our Elementary education.

 

[Moonbeam]

I've never understood the obsession with guns in the USA. But it is what it is.

The CBD is all about fear. To be all about fear is to have an exaggerated need for safety. Guns create that exaggerated state. Thinking about guns, fondling them like lovers, can calm that panic state. For the fearful, it is the thoughts of heaven that calm the fears of hell. Having a conservative brain defect is like having your own private hell.

 

[thraashman]

Do we really need abortions? Or same-sex marriage?

I don't generally agree with you on much, but this is a fairly good and simple response. A huge majority of people for whom abortions and same-sex marriage is legal, will never find a use for those two things. On the same vein, for a huge majority of the people that will ever legally own guns, they have no need for them. None of that changes the legality of those things. And any right should be subject to reasonable restrictions based on health and safety. The key thing is finding that reasonable amount without stepping over.

The problem is not the guns, and revoking a right to them will not do much to stop the gun violence. The problem is in a society that glorifies violence. Instead of trying to get the guns banned it is the society you should be trying to change.

It's not just glorifies violence but it's also glorifying a "might makes right" attitude. And the gun as the ultimate symbol of that might.

 

[mu11et]

As long as there are people who are always trying to take away your basic freedoms, there will always be a need for guns.

BINGO!! Humans have always tried to control other humans, it's in our DNA. Guns keep this from happening. Liberals will always try and make laws to control people that is in their DNA. Laws can not stop stupidity no matter how good the intent or desire to do so.

www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=5KHdhrNhh88

 

[Mxylplyx]

This is an easy argument to make for a young, able-bodied male. In your gun-free world, the strong rule. An elderly couple is forced to watch their door be kicked in with no recourse. A young woman watches a group of men surround her in a parking garage and there's nothing she can do.

You're correct in saying that there would be fewer deaths, but the increase in other crimes would likely be substantial. And it's hard to assign a metric to people who must live in fear of thugs for their entire lives.

Ahh yes, I forgot about the constant stream of stories in the paper of young women bravely fighting off gangs of attackers in parking garages. Perhaps you could share a few? I'll promise you I could probably produce 1000 examples of guns being used in the commission of a crime for every one you produce of a gun preventing one. What shit hole do you live in that justifies this kind of fear?

but the increase in other crimes would likely be substantial. And it's hard to assign a metric to people who must live in fear of thugs for their entire lives.

That statement is pure bullshit. I think the real discussion here is why are you so afraid. I think Moonbeam is onto something with his comment above. The illusion of safety provided by a gun is just that, an illusion.

 

[thraashman]

lol Margaret Sanger saw a need for abortions too.

Actually Margaret Sanger saw a need for legalizing abortions because women were getting them anyway but they were unsafe. She actually believed that abortion should be avoided if at all possible and was very pro contraception.

 

[glenn1]

This is an easy argument to make for a young, able-bodied male. In your gun-free world, the strong rule. An elderly couple is forced to watch their door be kicked in with no recourse. A young woman watches a group of men surround her in a parking garage and there's nothing she can do.

You're correct in saying that there would be fewer deaths, but the increase in other crimes would likely be substantial. And it's hard to assign a metric to people who must live in fear of thugs for their entire lives.

And I'm perfectly happy to allow people like the victim and Mxylplyx to prefer to deal with fear of thugs than deal with their evidently greater fear that someone else may own a firearm. Just like people sign "do not resuscitate" orders I wish there were some way they could be distinguished in public so that they could be assured no one would intervene on their behalf with a firearm if they were being victimized.

 

[Moonbeam]

I live in a world full of guns, but no one ever thinks they need to take one outside to defend themselves from their fellow human beings

I have more guns than I can mentally count. Most are somewhere in a storage area. I know where two are but not where the ammo is. I only bought one of them because it was worth way more than I paid. The only time I ever think about them is when I post in these threads. One of these days, soon I think, I'm going to go through my things and straighten them up. I will put some organization in that mess. I'm just about done remodeling a house I've done up as an art project and the interior furnishings come next. I want to make certain pieces of furniture and so maybe I'll do a gun case. Maybe a light stained two door affair in maple riddled with what would appear to be bullet holes shot from within such that the front of the doors would show splintered holes I could paint in red and with deer antler pull handles.

 

[TheSlamma]

^

 

[SMOGZINN]

When people like Mxylplyx say that they want a ban on guns what is the problem they are wanting to solve? I am assuming it is people killing each other.

Actually Margaret Sanger saw a need for legalizing abortions because women were getting them anyway but they were unsafe. She actually believed that abortion should be avoided if at all possible and was very pro contraception.

She had it right, banning abortion was not helping, supporting contraception is the correct answer to the problem of abortion. The problem was never that women wanted abortions, but that women were having unwanted pregnancies.

In the same way banning guns is not going to fix the problem of people killing each other. We have to solve the problem at it's core. Banning guns is putting a bandaid on an arterial bleed, it might slow it down but the patient is still bleeding out.

We need to figure out why people are wanting to kill each other, and solve that problem.

 

[BoberFett]

I can imagine two worlds in which we can have no fear of gun violence. Imagine if you had a gun of such strong deterrence that everybody knew that if you attacked a person so armed, they would destroy the world. This would eliminate all threat except that of the criminally insane Or until one of them also got one.

Or imagine a world in which there were no guns and most spontaneous acts of violence happened with less effective weapons.
Choose your world,

What kills more people each year? Spontaneous violence or planned violence?

 

[BoberFett]

This country would be better off, and the murder rate would drop DRASTICALLY if guns simply disappeared from this country. If it were that simple I would fully support pressing the magic button to make them all go away. There is no cost/benefit analysis that could possibly support the claim that firearms are a net benefit to our society, with the real human costs in blood far outweighing any utility value or vague notion of "freedom" that they offer us.

Now obviously there is no magic button, but a multi-decade effort to decrease firearm ownership in this country would be a worthy goal, starting with the serious curtailment in the manufacture of new firearms and restrictions on the supply of ammunition, perhaps followed by a long running gun buyback program.

Yeah yeah, I know. This makes me a freedom hating communist, even though I personally own 4 guns. I don't suffer the cognitive dissonance about the true societal value of guns like many gun nuts do.

So you're talking about the government eliminating it's guns?

 

[JSt0rm]

Do you need a gun to put food on the table?

Londo doesnt have many skills so yes. Killing is probably the only way to get meat on the table.