Do these guys look like police to you?

[kage69]

They don't have a job that is similiar to military units.

Your opinion is noted, however due to the sheer variety of criminal situations that can arise, I don't feel comfortable with blankets statements like that. What military are you familiar with that sees no need in training how to deal with CQB? Deploying sharp shooters, dealing with explosives, traps?

The majority of SWAT units are called out to serve warrants and the majority of time the people they are serving the warrants on are either unarmed or maybe have a couple of pistols and a old rifle.

That may very well be true, but does not invalidate the need to be prepared for situations that are far more serious and not exactly rare. A determined and well positioned gunmen can kill dozens of people before cops get to him, so I think your qualifier of a "couple of pistols and a old rifle" is comically obtuse.

The majority of criminals are not heavily armed.

Who said they were?

The rise of SWAT times concided(sic) with the drug war and asset forfeiture laws.

If you say so. Please enter standard correlation vs causation reply here.

SWAT teams have become a money maker for most police departments because of this. This in flow of money then supports the SWAT teams and all their cool gear. The situations that really truely(sic) require a SWAT team are few and far between.

I don't doubt at all there are some image obsessed blowhards working SWAT at various places in the country. Hell I've worked out with a few of them. I'm actually a big critic of that kind of thing, one of the reasons I can't stand the state of Louisiana. For profit corrections systems are a blight on this country, but that doesn't change the fact that SWAT is for a role normal LEOs don't fill, and that some people are freaked out by their appearances.

 

[Markbnj]

How do you propose they secure the area if they are hopelessly outgunned?

Well in the case I noted, the North Hollywood shootout, the police were hopelessly outgunned and yet managed to bring the situation to a conclusion without the loss of civilian life. So it wasn't as hopeless as it first appeared, I guess. They used resourcefulness and responded to what was probably a once in a lifetime situation for most if not all of them. Should every rare, impossible to foresee circumstance result in an increase in government power? I think it's a legitimate question: do these types of police units represent an over-reaction?

 

[kage69]

Then start paying attention, this is just the toy solider suits they wear when making no-knock searches of homes, often on little or no evidence, and far too often at the wrong house, on the wrong street.

Did you watch the blatant violation of constitutional rights in Boston last year when cops in their swat gear illegally searched every house on the block, pointing their weapons at children as they herded them out of their homes at gunpoint and into the streets?

Coming soon to your neighborhood :twisted:

I have a better idea: how about you stop acting like a little whiny bitch who thinks their assumptions speak for others, and I'll refrain from pointing all the ways you suck at comprehension and dealing with a subject. Deal?


I can't promise others will read that reply and not notice all the straw sticking out, or your clear anti-LEO attitude for that matter. On your own there. 🙂

 

[Markbnj]

Really? Here I was thinking it was obvious that the notion of appearance had everything to do with the adverb used in the thread title. Silly me.

Noting the distinction between normal law enforcement and SWAT is also quite silly, my apologies, no idea what came over me.

You're right, I used the word "look" in the title. This thread is now about fashion.

That may very well be true, but does not invalidate the need to be prepared for situations that are far more serious and not exactly rare.

That assertion is yet to be proven.

 

[Ns1]

Well in the case I noted, the North Hollywood shootout, the police were hopelessly outgunned and yet managed to bring the situation to a conclusion without the loss of civilian life.

sure, after raiding a gun shop for weapons and calling in SWAT.

 

[kage69]

A recruitment video for the Springdale Police Department in Arkansas shows cops dressed in military-style ghillie suits

www.youtube.com/embed/smqZ108ZwAo

.

This may shock you, but some situations requiring surveillance and/or precision marksmanship can occur in places other than commercial highrise areas. Turns out in States with rural settings, a SWAT officer is better served by wearing camouflage than flat black fatigues with ID and comm equipment strapped to him in plain view. Arkansas, huh. Go figure. Would that be necessary or appropriate for a team in Chicago or Atlanta? Probably not.

 

[smitbret]

I tend to agree, but I'm pretty sure using soldiers for civilian operations is strictly banned. Something to do with protecting civilians from military domination.

Yep and from the looks of the picture, that restriction appears to be working very well........ <facepalm>

 

[Markbnj]

sure, after raiding a gun shop for weapons and calling in SWAT.

Right, I didn't say the thing just resolved itself. They had to take steps to deal with it. But they did deal with it. How often will such a situation recur? That event occurred 16 years ago, and in one of our largest cities. Has there been anything similar to it since? Is there really a reason for Conroe, TX to have a similar capability, to deal with its 5 murders a year?

 

[smitbret]

Yet in a situation like Columbine where a SWAT could have made a difference the SWAT team sat outside and secured the perimeter.

That's because the majority of these SWAT units consist of cowards. Men who signed up for police work because they enjoy the feeling of power and superiority that comes with a badge, a gun and the right to use it. Compensating for a lack of confidence.

Put 'em in a fair fight and they will shit their pants and cry.

Don't fool yourselves, these units are equipped to give their men extra confidence not to fight crime.

 

[Ns1]

Right, I didn't say the thing just resolved itself. They had to take steps to deal with it. But they did deal with it. How often will such a situation recur? That event occurred 16 years ago, and in one of our largest cities. Has there been anything similar to it since? Is there really a reason for Conroe, TX to have a similar capability, to deal with its 5 murders a year?

Isn't that exactly the point though? We want to be prepared in case it happens. I mean you don't expect Colorado to be the shootout capital of America but Aurora and Columbine happened.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Little boys want to grow up and play army.

How is that any different than any other gun tot'n Murican?

 

[smitbret]

How is that any different than any other gun tot'n Murican?

Most 'Muricans know the difference between playing and reality. Most of these guys don't.

 

[Markbnj]

That's because the majority of these SWAT units consist of cowards. Men who signed up for police work because they enjoy the feeling of power and superiority that comes with a badge, a gun and the right to use it.

Put 'em in a fair fight and they will shit their pants and cry.

Ouch. I don't think that's fair at all. I think the reality is that there are very few situations were the police need a SWAT team to show up and engage an actively combatant force. Situations aren't predictable, and it has often been noted that police don't prevent crime, they react to it. In the Columbine case the information fog made any decision to storm into a school very risky. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Markbnj]

Isn't that exactly the point though? We want to be prepared in case it happens. I mean you don't expect Colorado to be the shootout capital of America but Aurora and Columbine happened.

Yeah but we don't react to everything that might happen. Some sober assessment of real risk is required, rather than an emotional over-reaction to every bad thing that occurrs.

 

[smitbret]

Ouch. I don't think that's fair at all. I think the reality is that there are very few situations were the police need a SWAT team to show up and engage an actively combatant force. Situations aren't predictable, and it has often been noted that police don't prevent crime, they react to it. In the Columbine case the information fog made any decision to storm into a school very risky. Hindsight is 20/20.

Isn't that supposed to be the reason that we equip, staff and train them this way? What service did they actually provide that a normal traffic cop couldn't?

 

[clamum]

How is that any different than any other gun tot'n Murican?

HURR DURR

To answer the OP, no they don't look like what I normally would think of "the police" as looking like (regular beat cops). But these guys are SWAT, which yes, they do look like (except usually SWAT teams have black uniforms instead of the OD green uniforms these guys have).

 

[Markbnj]

Isn't that supposed to be the reason that we equip, staff and train them this way? What service did they actually provide that a normal traffic cop couldn't?

I'm not arguing that Columbine is a justification for SWAT teams. I'm saying the police weren't cowards for not storming into the building and killing the gunmen.

 

[Thebobo]

This may shock you, but some situations requiring surveillance and/or precision marksmanship can occur in places other than commercial highrise areas. Turns out in States with rural settings, a SWAT officer is better served by wearing camouflage than flat black fatigues with ID and comm equipment strapped to him in plain view. Arkansas, huh. Go figure. Would that be necessary or appropriate for a team in Chicago or Atlanta? Probably not.

Yes it does shock me. No matter what your excuse for them this is not the direction this country should be going.


BTW Here is a much better recrutiment video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0KgEjt7suY#t=39


.

 

[Brovane]

Your opinion is noted, however due to the sheer variety of criminal situations that can arise, I don't feel comfortable with blankets statements like that. What military are you familiar with that sees no need in training how to deal with CQB? Deploying sharp shooters, dealing with explosives, traps?

That may very well be true, but does not invalidate the need to be prepared for situations that are far more serious and not exactly rare. A determined and well positioned gunmen can kill dozens of people before cops get to him, so I think your qualifier of a "couple of pistols and a old rifle" is comically obtuse.

Who said they were?

If you say so. Please enter standard correlation vs causation reply here.



I don't doubt at all there are some image obsessed blowhards working SWAT at various places in the country. Hell I've worked out with a few of them. I'm actually a big critic of that kind of thing, one of the reasons I can't stand the state of Louisiana. For profit corrections systems are a blight on this country, but that doesn't change the fact that SWAT is for a role normal LEOs don't fill, and that some people are freaked out by their appearances.

I am sorry there is a lot of image obsessed blowhards working in SWAT. They are just way to many SWAT teams in the United States. Now that they have this tool to them everything looks like a nail and needs to be used way to often. Every city doesn't need a SWAT team. The police are not a occupying military force and they need to be reminded of that.

I would like to see a systematic gathering on data on the use of SWAT teams in the United States. Right now all the departments don't accurately report the use of SWAT teams and what they are being used.

I would like to see the following data gathered at a national level.

#1- How many times SWAT teams where used and what where they used for.

#2- When they where used what weapons where found if any? What illegal drugs where found? How many times where people arrested during the Swat raid? Also if no illegal substances or firearms etc where found?

#3- If the SWAT team was executing a warrant. Was a no knock warrant or regular warrant execution.

#4- If a animal was shot during the execution of the warrant? If so was the animal killed? Also what type of animal. If it was a dog, what breed or if a mixed bread. Size of the dog shot.

#5- What firearms where used for the execution of the warrant. Where flash stun grenades deployed?

I think we need to start gathering this data at a national level and take a close look at how SWAT units are deployed. We need to understand why they are being used using good metrics and we need some oversight. Right now I feel their is no oversight as to the use of SWAT teams. The LE agencies employing the SWAT teams should be able to justify the deployment of these teams with good statistical data as to how they are employed.

 

[Markbnj]

To answer the OP, no they don't look like what I normally would think of "the police" as looking like (regular beat cops). But these guys are SWAT, which yes, they do look like (except usually SWAT teams have black uniforms instead of the OD green uniforms these guys have).

That seems to be one side of the argument: these guys are SWAT and that is what SWAT guys look like and these are the things SWAT guys do. But that's begging the question a little, isn't it? I'm asking why we need these people to be trained this way and equipped this way. How common are situations where this sort of armed police response is really required, and could those situations be dealt with effectively through some other mechanism than local paramilitary police?

 

[MtnMan]

Yet in a situation like Columbine where a SWAT could have made a difference the SWAT team sat outside and secured the perimeter.

The police dept. in columbine should have been disbanded, as their cowardice and lack of a plan (besides hiding behind armored vehicles) caused the death of many of those kids.

No a cop with the balls to actually do something could have stopped those guys and the body count would have been much much lower. These shooters take their own life as soon as they are challenged, and cops hiding outside are no threat to them, and they knew it.

Or how about a teacher or administrator that has a CCW permit, and allowed to carry at school. These punks choose school because they knew they were totally safe from anyone shooting at them for at least 10 - 15 minutes.

Firefighters enter extremely dangerous situations daily, the cop mentality is to hide behind their cars and yell through bull horns.

 

[kage69]

You're right, I used the word "look" in the title. This thread is now about fashion.

Doesn't really say anything to refute the need of SWAT or it's tools or tactics, and worse yet avoids the entire comparison to normal police proffered in the OP. Thanks for throwing some peach in here though, we did need that.

That assertion is yet to be proven.

lol Do you really think police or any kind of emergency responders base their kit on the statistical averages of past encounters when dealing with life or death scenarios? Seriously?

I can see it now.

You're up rookie! And don't worry, even though we're in downtown Detroit, it's 3am, and that crackhead might be a lookout that just spotted us, statistically people don't get shot too often doing this kind of thing so you just leave that carbine and extra ballistic protection in the van. Cake runs like this are done with harsh language and sometimes we point a pistol to make them know we're serious. What's that face for, you allergic to lead or something? Look, you'll be fine, and if it turns out they have a hostage, just holler and let us know. We'll send Chuck back to the station for a rifle and spotter scope, shouldn't take him too long.

 

[BUTCH1]

Ouch. I don't think that's fair at all. I think the reality is that there are very few situations were the police need a SWAT team to show up and engage an actively combatant force. Situations aren't predictable, and it has often been noted that police don't prevent crime, they react to it. In the Columbine case the information fog made any decision to storm into a school very risky. Hindsight is 20/20.

While your right about situations being unpredictable, some of the students that managed to flee the building early on did give the cops, SWAT, descriptions and info that was needed to go in and act, the perps were both wearing long rain-coat type garments so there should have been little or no issue of accidentally shooting at innocent kids, "securing a perimeter" while kids were still being shot at and killed is inexcusable IMHO..

 

[Newell Steamer]

The truck says SWAT,.. but, I am going to have to say,.. Mall Cops,... am I right?

 

[Newell Steamer]

You're right, I used the word "look" in the title. This thread is now about fashion.

Actually, with this pic,.. you've made it a thread about fat chicks...

,.. I feel sick.