Do these guys look like police to you?

[OutHouse]

these are real cops, and they did not shoot the dog.

http://youtu.be/F8QBrvY7drg

 

[MtnMan]

I have a better idea: how about you stop acting like a little whiny bitch who thinks their assumptions speak for others, and I'll refrain from pointing all the ways you suck at comprehension and dealing with a subject. Deal?


I can't promise others will read that reply and not notice all the straw sticking out, or your clear anti-LEO attitude for that matter. On your own there. 🙂

Hope your misguided view of reality doesn't bitch slap you, but I suspect you will have a change of heart in the next 10 years, as your friendly local police stomp all over your rights.

We are not far from "your papers komrad" as routine, especially with the likes of you as cheerleaders for the militarization of law enforcement. I taught my children that cops were your friend, today that is the worst advise you can give a child.

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

 

[MarkXIX]

So, here's my technical analysis as a Soldier and Military Police Officer.

1) What purpose do these guys have for a PEQ-15 attached to the top rail of their rifles? For those not inclined, a PEQ-15 is a laser designator for a rifle that has both a visible (red dot) and an infrared laser (for co-use with night vision goggles). There are far cheaper alternatives out there and having these mounted on these weapons implies they also have night vision systems to go with them.

2) Given that they have helmet mounts for NVGs, I'm assuming they have those as well. Which brings me to my next observation that they have some pretty high speed NVG helmet mounts with spring loaded retention lanyards. Lanyards are usually used in places where you're moving under cover of darkness and you don't want your shit to hit a tree, fall off, and get lost, fucking up your mission and turning high speed gear over to the bad guys. Pretty fucking hard to do that raiding a fucking residence here in the U.S.A. and expect that you can't just flip on a fucking flashlight and go find the shit without getting your entire team killed by bad guys.

3) If we paid as taxpayers to camouflage those rifles when they could have stayed factory color, that's an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars. Such a modification to the weapons is purely cosmetic. Hell, even the best of the best in military SF units usually don't camo their weapons and even then, they do it with spray paint and tape more often than not. More wasteful spending of taxpayer dollars, even if they did paint them themselves. That was time and resources better used elsewhere.

4) How many fucking flashlights do these guys need? Note that they have one on their rifle and one on their helmet. What situation will they find themselves in where they need both? Those helmet lights aren't cheap either and even the Army won't typically purchase those for use. More wasteful spending. Also, I would love to have a nice little light right near my face for the bad guy to aim for in a low light situation...fucking rookies. Must be all that map analysis they're doing out in the middle of nowhere under a fucking poncho...

5) Silencers? Really? I needn't say anything else...

6) Those scopes are for long shots, not close quarter combat role that I would think most SWAT encounters would call for. Sure, they might run into a long shot scenario once in a while, but that silencer kinda negates the situation now doesn't it? Bullets travel faster than sound, sooooo...with a scope like that you'll have hit the intended target before he/she even hears the shot anyway. Why the need for a silencer on the one rifle then?

7) These guys appear to have thigh holsters probably with pistols accompanied by those pistol type magazines at their waist. How many rounds are they planning on expending from those rifles where they might need to switch to a pistol? Better yet, are they going to use that pistol from the vehicle window while they're being engaged because the rifle is too long and unwieldy?

What scenario are they planning for where they are completely covert and making long distance shots using fucking lasers, night vision systems, flashlights, silencers, drones, and armored vehicles with fucking hydraulic ramp for upper level floor breaching? There are Army Infantry units that don't have this equipment and they've actually needed it and had people maimed and killed because of it. Yet, these motherfuckers, because they CAN are in the clear to just get all this shit with my taxpaper dollars? It's egregious and it's overstepping and the more I type, the more pissed off I get.

Just think about this, I generally support Police. What I see here is so far beyond ridiculous that as a taxpayer and as a citizen I am pissed. There's easily close to $250k just in that one picture in hardware that will probably never be utilized, ever.

 

[phucheneh]

OP: 'Do these guys look like police?!'

Me: No, they look more like military, because they're a SWAT unit using lots of military gear. They are functionally no different for it.

OP: Duh, I'm not just talking about how they look.

Me: You're retarded.

 

[Markbnj]

OP: 'Do these guys look like police?!'

Me: No, they look more like military, because they're a SWAT unit using lots of military gear. They are functionally no different for it.

OP: Duh, I'm not just talking about how they look.

Me: You're retarded.

Yes, I think that is a fair memorialization of your lack of contribution to the thread. You may move on now.

 

[kage69]

I am sorry there is a lot of image obsessed blowhards working in SWAT. They are just way to many SWAT teams in the United States. Now that they have this tool to them everything looks like a nail and needs to be used way to often. Every city doesn't need a SWAT team. The police are not a occupying military force and they need to be reminded of that.

I would like to see a systematic gathering on data on the use of SWAT teams in the United States. Right now all the departments don't accurately report the use of SWAT teams and what they are being used.

I would like to see the following data gathered at a national level.

#1- How many times SWAT teams where used and what where they used for.

#2- When they where used what weapons where found if any? What illegal drugs where found? How many times where people arrested during the Swat raid? Also if no illegal substances or firearms etc where found?

#3- If the SWAT team was executing a warrant. Was a no knock warrant or regular warrant execution.

#4- If a animal was shot during the execution of the warrant? If so was the animal killed?

#5- What firearms where used for the execution of the warrant. Where flash stun grenades deployed?

I think we need to start gathering this data at a national level and take a close look at how SWAT units are deployed. We need to understand why they are being used using good metrics and we need some oversight. Right now I feel their is no oversight as to the use of SWAT teams. The LE agencies employing the SWAT teams should be able to justify the deployment of these teams with good statistical data as to how they are employed.

Excellent points.

I was going to do my usual point by point reply, but as it happens I agree with almost all of that. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing there are too few SWAT teams in this country, or that they are all law and ROE abiding examples of professionalism. I am all for stringent oversight as well as the judicious and appropriate use of man power and money. None of that makes me have a problem with modern SWAT gear. Similar needs in similar settings results in similar technology. No need to re-invent the wheel as it were. If a military grade night vision scope is needed for night action by SWAT, fine. If drug dens have become hardened with reinforced walls and doors in order to deny warrant serving entry teams, skipping the hammer and bringing the door down with ram-equipped up armored SUV is also fine.

SWAT turning into some kind of club, where military wannabes go to play dress up at the tax payers expense is obviously bullshit and needs the kabash yesterday. Same for any departments that view administration and oversight as unneeded or unwelcome. Funny that you brought up the animal element. That one makes my blood boil like few things do.

 

[Train]

So, here's my technical analysis as a Soldier and Military Police Officer.

1) What purpose do these guys have for a PEQ-15 attached to the top rail of their rifles? For those not inclined, a PEQ-15 is a laser designator for a rifle that has both a visible (red dot) and an infrared laser (for co-use with night vision goggles). There are far cheaper alternatives out there and having these mounted on these weapons implies they also have night vision systems to go with them.

2) Given that they have helmet mounts for NVGs, I'm assuming they have those as well. Which brings me to my next observation that they have some pretty high speed NVG helmet mounts with spring loaded retention lanyards. Lanyards are usually used in places where you're moving under cover of darkness and you don't want your shit to hit a tree, fall off, and get lost, fucking up your mission and turning high speed gear over to the bad guys. Pretty fucking hard to do that raiding a fucking residence here in the U.S.A. and expect that you can't just flip on a fucking flashlight and go find the shit without getting your entire team killed by bad guys.

3) If we paid as taxpayers to camouflage those rifles when they could have stayed factory color, that's an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars. Such a modification to the weapons is purely cosmetic. Hell, even the best of the best in military SF units usually don't camo their weapons and even then, they do it with spray paint and tape more often than not. More wasteful spending of taxpayer dollars, even if they did paint them themselves. That was time and resources better used elsewhere.

4) How many fucking flashlights do these guys need? Note that they have one on their rifle and one on their helmet. What situation will they find themselves in where they need both? Those helmet lights aren't cheap either and even the Army won't typically purchase those for use. More wasteful spending. Also, I would love to have a nice little light right near my face for the bad guy to aim for in a low light situation...fucking rookies. Must be all that map analysis they're doing out in the middle of nowhere under a fucking poncho...

5) Silencers? Really? I needn't say anything else...

6) Those scopes are for long shots, not close quarter combat role that I would think most SWAT encounters would call for. Sure, they might run into a long shot scenario once in a while, but that silencer kinda negates the situation now doesn't it? Bullets travel faster than sound, sooooo...with a scope like that you'll have hit the intended target before he/she even hears the shot anyway. Why the need for a silencer on the one rifle then?

7) These guys appear to have thigh holsters probably with pistols accompanied by those pistol type magazines at their waist. How many rounds are they planning on expending from those rifles where they might need to switch to a pistol? Better yet, are they going to use that pistol from the vehicle window while they're being engaged because the rifle is too long and unwieldy?

What scenario are they planning for where they are completely covert and making long distance shots using fucking lasers, night vision systems, flashlights, silencers, drones, and armored vehicles with fucking hydraulic ramp for upper level floor breaching? There are Army Infantry units that don't have this equipment and they've actually needed it and had people maimed and killed because of it. Yet, these motherfuckers, because they CAN are in the clear to just get all this shit with my taxpaper dollars? It's egregious and it's overstepping and the more I type, the more pissed off I get.

Just think about this, I generally support Police. What I see here is so far beyond ridiculous that as a taxpayer and as a citizen I am pissed. There's easily close to $250k just in that one picture in hardware that will probably never be utilized, ever.

This is basically everything I would have typed out if I weren't lazy.

I think the short answer to the all the waste is Federal spending is gonna federal spend. Defense contractors need money. Senators need donations. Iraq war over, Afghan war spinning down. Solution? Federal grant to LEA's to buy "swat" shit.

The vast majority of those small dept's would have NEVER considered spending so much money on a friggin armored vehicle like the one in the pic. Soooo overpriced. But with Federal money earmarked for certain things.... shit ,why NOT buy all the cool shit that guys in the Army/Marines don't even bother using.

 

[mizzou]

They look like a specialized tactical team, which is exactly what their job descriptions says they are.

I don't understand what you are missing OP?

 

[kage69]

Hope your misguided view of reality doesn't bitch slap you, but I suspect you will have a change of heart in the next 10 years, as your friendly local police stomp all over your rights.

We are not far from "your papers komrad" as routine, especially with the likes of you as cheerleaders for the militarization of law enforcement. I taught my children that cops were your friend, today that is the worst advise you can give a child.

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

Poor guy. Must suck being delusional like that. The pompous, indignant know-it-all attitude isn't the heaviest stone you carry, is it?

Get help, for the sake of your children if not your own.

 

[mizzou]

It doesn't really make sense to me. There job should be law enforcement, not engaging in combat. For those rare times when a department actually encounters the sort of enemy those officers in the picture are equipped to encounter, I would rather they just secure the area and bring in actual soldiers. I don't like this trend of militarizing police departments at all. I'm no black helicopter bunker patriot. I'm pretty far from that in every way, but this is one stand-out feature of modern society that really worries me.

Some countries have a quasi military standing army to protect the civilians, along with a police force for regular duties. We dont' have that in the US, so would you rather have the national guard be patrolling the streets? I don't see much of a difference either way, other then a uniform. Many officers are active military or prior military, so you will likely get the same person, just a fresher face.

I already said this numerous times before, show me a highly uber tactical regular patrol officer and tell me what county/jurisdiction they serve because I am curious to know.

I want to see where regular uniformed patrolmen are serving the streets in camo and armored cars w/ drones.

 

[OutHouse]

So, here's my technical analysis as a Soldier and Military Police Officer.

1) What purpose do these guys have for a PEQ-15 attached to the top rail of their rifles? For those not inclined, a PEQ-15 is a laser designator for a rifle that has both a visible (red dot) and an infrared laser (for co-use with night vision goggles). There are far cheaper alternatives out there and having these mounted on these weapons implies they also have night vision systems to go with them.

2) Given that they have helmet mounts for NVGs, I'm assuming they have those as well. Which brings me to my next observation that they have some pretty high speed NVG helmet mounts with spring loaded retention lanyards. Lanyards are usually used in places where you're moving under cover of darkness and you don't want your shit to hit a tree, fall off, and get lost, fucking up your mission and turning high speed gear over to the bad guys. Pretty fucking hard to do that raiding a fucking residence here in the U.S.A. and expect that you can't just flip on a fucking flashlight and go find the shit without getting your entire team killed by bad guys.

3) If we paid as taxpayers to camouflage those rifles when they could have stayed factory color, that's an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars. Such a modification to the weapons is purely cosmetic. Hell, even the best of the best in military SF units usually don't camo their weapons and even then, they do it with spray paint and tape more often than not. More wasteful spending of taxpayer dollars, even if they did paint them themselves. That was time and resources better used elsewhere.

4) How many fucking flashlights do these guys need? Note that they have one on their rifle and one on their helmet. What situation will they find themselves in where they need both? Those helmet lights aren't cheap either and even the Army won't typically purchase those for use. More wasteful spending. Also, I would love to have a nice little light right near my face for the bad guy to aim for in a low light situation...fucking rookies. Must be all that map analysis they're doing out in the middle of nowhere under a fucking poncho...

5) Silencers? Really? I needn't say anything else...

6) Those scopes are for long shots, not close quarter combat role that I would think most SWAT encounters would call for. Sure, they might run into a long shot scenario once in a while, but that silencer kinda negates the situation now doesn't it? Bullets travel faster than sound, sooooo...with a scope like that you'll have hit the intended target before he/she even hears the shot anyway. Why the need for a silencer on the one rifle then?

7) These guys appear to have thigh holsters probably with pistols accompanied by those pistol type magazines at their waist. How many rounds are they planning on expending from those rifles where they might need to switch to a pistol? Better yet, are they going to use that pistol from the vehicle window while they're being engaged because the rifle is too long and unwieldy?

What scenario are they planning for where they are completely covert and making long distance shots using fucking lasers, night vision systems, flashlights, silencers, drones, and armored vehicles with fucking hydraulic ramp for upper level floor breaching? There are Army Infantry units that don't have this equipment and they've actually needed it and had people maimed and killed because of it. Yet, these motherfuckers, because they CAN are in the clear to just get all this shit with my taxpaper dollars? It's egregious and it's overstepping and the more I type, the more pissed off I get.

Just think about this, I generally support Police. What I see here is so far beyond ridiculous that as a taxpayer and as a citizen I am pissed. There's easily close to $250k just in that one picture in hardware that will probably never be utilized, ever.

that drone ws 250K alone.

your post is spot on. especially the pistol rounds, how many fricken pistol mags are they carrying? are they planning to get in a gun fight with Saddam Hussein sons in Iraq?

 

[OutHouse]

Many officers are active military or prior military

you mean national guard or reserves.

 

[Brovane]

Excellent points.

I was going to do my usual point by point reply, but as it happens I agree with almost all of that. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing there are too few SWAT teams in this country, or that they are all law and ROE abiding examples of professionalism. I am all for stringent oversight as well as the judicious and appropriate use of man power and money. None of that makes me have a problem with modern SWAT gear. Similar needs in similar settings results in similar technology. No need to re-invent the wheel as it were. If a military grade night vision scope is needed for night action by SWAT, fine. If drug dens have become hardened with reinforced walls and doors in order to deny warrant serving entry teams, skipping the hammer and bringing the door down with ram-equipped up armored SUV is also fine.

SWAT turning into some kind of club, where military wannabes go to play dress up at the tax payers expense is obviously bullshit and needs the kabash yesterday. Same for any departments that view administration and oversight as unneeded or unwelcome. Funny that you brought up the animal element. That one makes my blood boil like few things do.

Thank you. I appreciatte the reply and honesty. SWAT units have their place but strict oversight needs to be in place. The shooting of animals also makes my blood boil and needs to stop. It is digusting the callous disregard that LE shows for private citizens animals. However when one of their K-9's get shot you would think that the world is coming to a end.

 

[mizzou]

that drone ws 250K alone.

your post is spot on. especially the pistol rounds, how many fricken pistol mags are they carrying? are they planning to get in a gun fight with Saddam Hussein sons in Iraq?

$$$ wasting is definitely a concern...honestly

It would be better served putting more uniformed people on the streets who know what they are doing.

 

[MarkXIX]

that drone ws 250K alone.

your post is spot on. especially the pistol rounds, how many fricken pistol mags are they carrying? are they planning to get in a gun fight with Saddam Hussein sons in Iraq?

Which is an insane price to pay for that drone too! Hell, I had two Raven UAS kits assigned to my combat support MP company and those were the same price and I guarantee more capable. Quieter, better loiter capability, better imagery...

 

[OutHouse]

Which is an insane price to pay for that drone too! Hell, I had two Raven UAS kits assigned to my combat support MP company and those were the same price and I guarantee more capable. Quieter, better loiter capability, better imagery...

well they crashed it in lake conroe 2 weeks ago. so its gone. divers have been trying to find it but no luck.

i hope somebody shot it down.

 

[Ns1]

well they crashed it in lake conroe 2 weeks ago. so its gone. divers have been trying to find it but no luck.

I can't find a face palm emoticon big enough.

 

[sourceninja]

I'm just going to touch on a small subset of this quote

So, here's my technical analysis as a Soldier and Military Police Officer.

.....



5) Silencers? Really? I needn't say anything else...

6) Those scopes are for long shots, not close quarter combat role that I would think most SWAT encounters would call for. Sure, they might run into a long shot scenario once in a while, but that silencer kinda negates the situation now doesn't it? Bullets travel faster than sound, sooooo...with a scope like that you'll have hit the intended target before he/she even hears the shot anyway. Why the need for a silencer on the one rifle then?

....

The real question is why wouldn't you always use a silencer (suppressor) on a rifle for close quarter use. Yes, most of us think of a suppressor as being all about lowering the sound a weapon makes, but in reality that is only a very small part of what a suppressor does. But if you really wanted to you could still use subsonic rounds for that extra quiet shooting experience. But I'm getting off my topic. Let's talk about what a suppressor can do for us.

It can make identifying the position of a shooter difficult. A suppressor reduces muzzle flash. It reduces muzzle blast. Even with supersonic rounds, this is going to make pinpointing a shooter much more difficult.

The reduced noise level of firing a suppressed weapon has another, often unappreciated advantage. It is well known that firing can produce temporary and permanent reductions in hearing, which is why shooters wear ear protectors when possible. When hunting or in combat this is often not practical, but firing will also reduce your hearing efficiency under the conditions when you need your senses at an optimum. Using a suppressed weapon helps protect a shooter's hearing. One of the reasons that many SWAT teams use suppressed SMGs is to reduce the sound hazards from gunfire in confined spaces, such as building interiors.

Suppressors also have a recoil reducing effect. This is partially due to gas pressure against the end cap, but also due to reduced velocity of the gas leaving the suppressor muzzle. This phenomenon is explained better here. Unlike a muzzle brake, the suppressor does not throw gases out to the side, to the detriment and discomfort of companions. On certain weapons it has been noticed that the fitting of a suppressor reduces muzzle flip and climb when firing.

For some weapons the use of a suppressor improves accuracy, since the bullet emerging from the gun receives less buffering from turbulent gases.

Honestly, if I had it my way all of my weapons would be suppressed. The only reason I think the military is not making suppressor standard issue is probably because of the maintenance factor. Suppressors need a lot of cleaning and maintenance to remain effective. This is not practical for long term field use. Luckily our SWAT teams are typically only deployed for a few hours in pretty controlled situations. This is a major boon to them. It improves their safety and that is imho a good thing.

 

[MarkXIX]

well they crashed it in lake conroe 2 weeks ago. so its gone. divers have been trying to find it but no luck.

i hope somebody shot it down.

Nope, one of the links posted earlier indicated they found it, but appeared to be total loss. Hell, at least a Raven's parts float by design...

Also, sorry for all the "f-bombs" in my first reply, I just re-read it and realized how angry this all makes me. I used the f-word 4+ times in just my second bullet.

The management of these police agencies should be thrown in jail for such levels of fraud and the government agencies offering this stuff up should have their budgets cut. Elected officials should have to answer for it all to their voters. Citizens should be furious that their local police have, in some instances, more capability than actual military units fighting terrorists on foreign soil.

 

[BudAshes]

In my town we have dilapidated public schools but our cops all got brand new suv's and motorcycles. And they "saved" the town a bunch of money by buying a used swat team outfit and vehicle . It would have cost 50% more new so they saved the town hundreds of thousands of dollars by wasting hundreds of thousands on something they will never use. Ever. Not even once. This town is 10k people and most of their houses are worth 700k - 1.5 million and they work in silicon valley.

 

[MarkXIX]

I'm just going to touch on a small subset of this quote



The real question is why wouldn't you always use a silencer (suppressor) on a rifle for close quarter use. Yes, most of us think of a suppressor as being all about lowering the sound a weapon makes, but in reality that is only a very small part of what a suppressor does. But if you really wanted to you could still use subsonic rounds for that extra quiet shooting experience. But I'm getting off my topic. Let's talk about what a suppressor can do for us.

It can make identifying the position of a shooter difficult. A suppressor reduces muzzle flash. It reduces muzzle blast. Even with supersonic rounds, this is going to make pinpointing a shooter much more difficult.

The reduced noise level of firing a suppressed weapon has another, often unappreciated advantage. It is well known that firing can produce temporary and permanent reductions in hearing, which is why shooters wear ear protectors when possible. When hunting or in combat this is often not practical, but firing will also reduce your hearing efficiency under the conditions when you need your senses at an optimum. Using a suppressed weapon helps protect a shooter's hearing. One of the reasons that many SWAT teams use suppressed SMGs is to reduce the sound hazards from gunfire in confined spaces, such as building interiors.

Suppressors also have a recoil reducing effect. This is partially due to gas pressure against the end cap, but also due to reduced velocity of the gas leaving the suppressor muzzle. This phenomenon is explained better here. Unlike a muzzle brake, the suppressor does not throw gases out to the side, to the detriment and discomfort of companions. On certain weapons it has been noticed that the fitting of a suppressor reduces muzzle flip and climb when firing.

For some weapons the use of a suppressor improves accuracy, since the bullet emerging from the gun receives less buffering from turbulent gases.

Honestly, if I had it my way all of my weapons would be suppressed. The only reason I think the military is not making suppressor standard issue is probably because of the maintenance factor. Suppressors need a lot of cleaning and maintenance to remain effective. This is not practical for long term field use. Luckily our SWAT teams are typically only deployed for a few hours in pretty controlled situations. This is a major boon to them. It improves their safety and that is imho a good thing.

No, this is all your "dick hard" bullshit coming out for your fantasy weapons wish list.

Military units who engage our enemies won't have them because they don't fucking matter in 99.99999% of enemy engagements. Flash hiders are less maintenance heavy and less subject to being screwed up in the rigors of combat operations. We move in big trucks and loud vehicles, stealth operations are limited to elite units for a reason and for very specific scenarios. Even then, a stealthy engagement in the military is going to happen under cover of darkness by trained units using things like infrared designators, night vision systems, and the element of surprise and overwhelming firepower. By then, the enemy is dead before they heard the rounds pop off anyway.

Nothing about a municipal SWAT team screams some kind of Navy SEAL, ninja style fucking operation, nothing. Their calls come in 99.9999% by some victim calling 911 or through some known street intel where they have the tactical advantage regardless of the situation on domestic soil with a full legal process and the full support of every local, state, and federal asset at their beck and call. Even then, having this long appendage off the end of a weapon while conducting CQB and room clearing just means that it sticks out further, is subject to hitting door frames, etc., and provides a nice "grab handle" for the bad guy to leverage the weapon out of the shooter's hands as it rounds the corner. Let's be honest, when you're clearing a fucking building you're loud, noisy, and communicating, not sneaking around like a fucking fat, donut eating ninja. Give me a scenario in which the SWAT team is going to enter a building or domicile completely stealth and need to engage a CQB target with a silencer so as not to alert others to the shooter's presence. Give me one...and it better not be some shit from a CoD game you played either.

So, get your dick hardening weapons wish list and justification out here; these guys have no need for this stuff, ever, under any circumstance. If you want to shoot fucking Diet Coke cans super accurately as a private citizen with a fucking silencer, have at it, that's your right. If I'm buying shit with my tax dollars, I'll be damned if it shouldn't make perfect sense and be useful to the citizenry.

 

[Drako]

Looks like a SWAT team to me. Are they not police?

 

[sourceninja]

I see you didn't even get the point. Suppressor ARE NOT ABOUT STEALTH!!!!!!! They are a safety tool.

I own multiple suppressors (well, 2). I don't use them to sneak around and kill me some terrorists. I use them to shoot comfortably, safely, and with more control. Whey the hell wouldn't you want one? They don't effect range or power in a meaningful way and can improve accuracy, If the government didn't make them so freaking hard to own every rifle on the planet for consumer use would probably have one.

I even mentioned that suppressors require more maintenance and would not be favored for 'combat' because of how fragile they are. But I guess you would rather just insult me instead of producing a valid argument. A $300-900 part that can make it safer for police is a good buy for me.

 

[clamum]

That seems to be one side of the argument: these guys are SWAT and that is what SWAT guys look like and these are the things SWAT guys do. But that's begging the question a little, isn't it? I'm asking why we need these people to be trained this way and equipped this way. How common are situations where this sort of armed police response is really required, and could those situations be dealt with effectively through some other mechanism than local paramilitary police?

I do think there's very valid uses for SWAT teams in this country. Should every city have one? Probably not; it's hard to imagine my hometown of Escanaba in the U.P. of Michigan needing a SWAT team.

As for that picture in the OP, I'm not familiar with Montgomery County, TX and its cities and whether or not a SWAT team makes sense. The teams can be invaluable when particular situations arise like hostage or gunman. I would need to see statistics on how many SWAT teams there are and the frequency of these atypical type situations occurring before I said that we have too many SWAT teams.

To be honest, I'd say we probably have more teams than would really be required, but I really don't know.

 

[MarkXIX]

I see you didn't even get the point. Suppressor ARE NOT ABOUT STEALTH!!!!!!! They are a safety tool.

I own multiple suppressors (well, 2). I don't use them to sneak around and kill me some terrorists. I use them to shoot comfortably, safely, and with more control. Whey the hell wouldn't you want one? They don't effect range or power in a meaningful way and can improve accuracy, If the government didn't make them so freaking hard to own every rifle on the planet for consumer use would probably have one.

I even mentioned that suppressors require more maintenance and would not be favored for 'combat' because of how fragile they are. But I guess you would rather just insult me instead of producing a valid argument. A $300-900 part that can make it safer for police is a good buy for me.

I do get your point and I made several counterpoints. They add to the length of the weapon, which IMPEDES CQB operation by making the weapon longer. The M4 was rapidly fielded into US Army hands PRECISELY because of CQB in Iraq, so let's just "Make it longer and say all the other attributes of adding a silencer made it safer too," said no one, ever.

Muzzle rise in a CQB scenario, especially in common urban type areas (residences, offices, etc.) isn't an issue if you've trained properly. You admit that they are subject to increased maintenance and sensitivity, so that means that they INDUCE additional safety concerns as much as they mitigate them. "Shit Bob! I slammed my silencer in the door of the vehicle getting out of it. Sorry, can't stack with you guys until I get this thing off the barrel," or "Damn, how many rounds did I put through this thing at the range? When was it last maintained? Shit, can't remember, well, screw it, let's raid this meth lab anyway and throw caution to the wind..."

I'm not sure where hiding my muzzle flash in a CQB scenario matters if my muzzle is within mere feet of the target. Even at long distances, do you really think a perp is going to see my muzzle flash in an urban area and return super accurate fire on my SWAT position?

Have you ever cleared rooms? Have you ever run CQB drills until your whole body hurts? Have you done it with sim rounds and body armor, much less real rounds? Better yet, ask yourself this question, would police having a silencer have changed the outcome of Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood (x2)...I can keep going, but I won't.

I'm telling you that a silencer is not required and your safety and accuracy concerns don't amount to shit in any real world situation. Super accuracy goes away real fucking quick when the adrenaline and the physical exertion of CQB happens. A silencer on that rifle shown MIGHT be useful if they are a few hundred meters out from a target and that target has the capability to return fire accurately and heavily either through mutually supporting bad guys or some other scenario that again, is not realistic for any municipal SWAT team to encounter. Silencers are and always will be niche products as they don't apply to 99.99999% of scenarios where shooting is required, especially for a SWAT team.