Discussion Do Human need animal products?

[whm1974]

I've watching a few YouTube videos and reading some online articles about both Veganism and Carnivore diets. One thing is for sure, it is hard to get actual facts along with a lot of Pseudo-scientific nonsense to shift through.

Personally based on the few actual science based articles I've read I'm convinced that Humans are Omnivores that are capable of consuming and thriving on a wide variety of foods. Basically our prehistoric Hunter-Gather ancestors simply ate whatever whatever was seasonally available.

One thing that is well known and documented , is that the Standard American Diet isn't healthy at all, and Americans really need to cut down on processed foods.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[Iron Woode]

Eating a healthy diet isn't hard. It's just not as easy as fast food.

The best way to a healthy diet would be to imitate a proper diabetic diet.

And get some exercise.

 

[whm1974]

Eating a healthy diet isn't hard. It's just not as easy as fast food.

The best way to a healthy diet would be to imitate a proper diabetic diet.

And get some exercise.

Several items I find to be quite interesting is that every Hunter-Gather group will consume bone marrow and greatly prefer their foods to be cooked.

To be clear, I am not saying that we in the Developed World need to live like them, but maybe we would be better off eating whole foods prepared and cooked at home.

 

[sandorski]

Depends on how you look at it. Everyone couldn't become Vegan overnight, because so much of the Food Production consists of Animal Products.

From a purely Health/Biological Need perspective it can be done, but for certain nutrients it gets somewhat tricky to accomplish and, IIRC, there are some people whose metabolism prevents them from achieving the ideal balance on a Vegan diet.

<< Not a Nutritionist, but has a lot of Vitamin O(pinion) in his diet.

 

[whm1974]

Depends on how you look at it. Everyone couldn't become Vegan overnight, because so much of the Food Production consists of Animal Products.

From a purely Health/Biological Need perspective it can be done, but for certain nutrients it gets somewhat tricky to accomplish and, IIRC, there are some people whose metabolism prevents them from achieving the ideal balance on a Vegan diet.

<< Not a Nutritionist, but has a lot of Vitamin O(pinion) in his diet.

One nutrient I know with an amount of reasonable certainly is that their is no known plant sources of Vitamin B12, our species do need to consume animal products in order to get it.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I've always wondered this myself. Meat is very wasteful in terms of the amount of resources it takes to produce, and I'd like to live semi off grid one of these days and I always like to think of ways I could try to be more self sufficient. But even if not self sufficient I still like to consider the impact of what I buy.

Always kinda wondered if by simply eating things that can be grown in a normal indoor environment (ex: LED grow lights and 20-25C temperatures) you could actually get all the nutrients you need. Of course I would not do this, I would still splurge and buy most of my food at the grocery store and freeze and portion out etc but it would be cool to slowly move towards self grown food and essentially be near 100% self sufficient. Yeah, you can raise animals and stuff too, but you have to feed them, so isin't it easier to just feed yourself with the resources you would need to use to feed livestock.

I have a feeling we will see more studies like this when the idea of a permanent Mars habitat becomes more serious. I highly doubt they will want to be raising livestock on Mars. Maybe chickens, at most.

 

[whm1974]

I've always wondered this myself. Meat is very wasteful in terms of the amount of resources it takes to produce, and I'd like to live semi off grid one of these days and I always like to think of ways I could try to be more self sufficient. But even if not self sufficient I still like to consider the impact of what I buy.

Always kinda wondered if by simply eating things that can be grown in a normal indoor environment (ex: LED grow lights and 20-25C temperatures) you could actually get all the nutrients you need. Of course I would not do this, I would still splurge and buy most of my food at the grocery store and freeze and portion out etc but it would be cool to slowly move towards self grown food and essentially be near 100% self sufficient. Yeah, you can raise animals and stuff too, but you have to feed them, so isin't it easier to just feed yourself with the resources you would need to use to feed livestock.

I have a feeling we will see more studies like this when the idea of a permanent Mars habitat becomes more serious. I highly doubt they will want to be raising livestock on Mars. Maybe chickens, at most.

Featherless chickens perhaps? To my knowledge chickens are more valuable for their eggs instead of their meat. Although on Mars I have no idea what we would feed chickens.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If you want to know what an animal eats in nature look at its digestive tract and teeth. We evolved to eat plants and meat and that is what we should consume. The particulars depend on climate, genetics, and environmental factors. People in Australia will eat differently than in the more abundant regions.

Our environment has changed but H. sapiens as a natural herbivore is scientifically absurd. Going to the other extreme is also unknown as even the Inuit gather plants in the two month or so long growing season for nutrients not found in animal products.

The bottom line is that we are generally evolved to eat a variety of things and not one or the other. The balance may be in question, but not the basics.

 

[TheVrolok]

One nutrient I know with an amount of reasonable certainly is that their is no known plant sources of Vitamin B12, our species do need to consume animal products in order to get it.

Yep. This absolutely needs to be supplemented if one does not consume any animal products. If we're talking about ideal health, it would probably be best to be, by and large, a vegetarian with some occasional fresh lean animal proteins.

And as was said, eat less fucking carbs.

 

[whm1974]

Yep. This absolutely needs to be supplemented if one does not consume any animal products. If we're talking about ideal health, it would probably be best to be, by and large, a vegetarian with some occasional fresh lean animal proteins.

And as was said, eat less fucking carbs.

Well I do eat plenty of cards, but I also avoid refined carbs and sugars as much as possible. I even eat potatoes but with skins on and with butter.

 

[TheVrolok]

Well I do eat plenty of cards, but I also avoid refined carbs and sugars as much as possible. I even eat potatoes but with skins on and with butter.

Avoiding refined carbs is a good idea. Natural carbs are definitely better. Americans, in general, just eat way too many carbs.

 

[balloonshark]

One nutrient I know with an amount of reasonable certainly is that their is no known plant sources of Vitamin B12, our species do need to consume animal products in order to get it.

This is not true. We could get B12 the same way the animals we eat but we decided it's much safer to wash our foods and drink clean water. https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/vitamin-b12/ They also make vegan b12 supplements.

If you want to find the perfect diet look at what people in blue zones eat.

 

[whm1974]

This is not true. We could get B12 the same way the animals we eat but we decided it's much safer to wash our foods and drink clean water. https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/vitamin-b12/ They also make vegan b12 supplements.

If you want to find the perfect diet look at what people in blue zones eat.

I didn't that you are going to get people to eat shit. And the other Apes still eat bugs which are part of the animal kingdom.

 

[Iron Woode]

This is not true. We could get B12 the same way the animals we eat but we decided it's much safer to wash our foods and drink clean water. https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/vitamin-b12/ They also make vegan b12 supplements.

If you want to find the perfect diet look at what people in blue zones eat.

you still can't get it that way because our digestive system is very different from ruminants. Humans must consume meat or take a supplement.

 

[whm1974]

you still can't get it that way because our digestive system is very different from ruminants. Humans must consume meat or take a supplement.

It really seems that there are no primitive native societies that are completely vegan. Even those that are near vegetarian due to local resources will consume animal products when available.

 

[Iron Woode]

It really seems that there are no primitive native societies that are completely vegan. Even those that are near vegetarian due to local resources will consume animal products when available.

That shouldn't surprise anyone. Humans evolved to be omnivores. There were not enough nutrients for our ancient ancestors in plants. They even ate insects for the needed protein.

 

[balloonshark]

you still can't get it that way because our digestive system is very different from ruminants. Humans must consume meat or take a supplement.

Damn! I knew I shouldn't have believed info from only one source. I can't even remember who it was.

So the process of making one form of a b12 supplement uses fermentation so perhaps they got that from idea from ruminants. Interesting if true.

 

[Iron Woode]

Damn! I knew I shouldn't have believed info from only one source. I can't even remember who it was.

So the process of making one form of a b12 supplement uses fermentation so perhaps they got that from idea from ruminants. Interesting if true.

The bacteria need to grow and it won't happen in our digestive system because we are not herbivores.

We have gut flora but it has evolved to live there.

EDIT:

The only organisms to produce vitamin B12 are certain bacteria, and archaea. Some of these bacteria are found in the soil around the grasses that ruminants eat; they are taken into the animal, proliferate, form part of their gut flora, and continue to produce vitamin B12.

 

[Iron Woode]

also, this might explain it better:

B12 is only produced in nature by certain bacteria, and archaea.[17][18][19] It is synthesized by some bacteria in the gut flora in humans and other animals, but humans cannot absorb this as it is made in the colon, downstream from the small intestine, where the absorption of most nutrients occurs.[20] Ruminants, such as cows and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their guts.[20] For gut bacteria of ruminants to produce B12 the animal must consume sufficient amounts of cobalt.[21] These grazing animals acquire the bacteria that produce vitamin B12, and the vitamin itself.

 

[whm1974]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency
So a severe lack of B12 can cause some brain disorders and sufferers will slowly go insane. Sure does explains the behavior of long term strict vegans.

 

[Iron Woode]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency
So a severe lack of B12 can cause some brain disorders and sufferers will slowly go insane. Sure does explains the behavior of long term strict vegans.

it can also happen to those with Celiac's.

 

[whm1974]

I wonder why it is so hard for vegans to accept that Human do need to consume animal products, especially for ethnic groups that live in stressful and really cold environments such as the Polar regions where plant foods are scarce?

And while I do share ethical concerns with the factory farming of animals, it takes life to get life.

 

[balloonshark]

The bacteria need to grow and it won't happen in our digestive system because we are not herbivores.

We have gut flora but it has evolved to live there.

also, this might explain it better:

B12 is only produced in nature by certain bacteria, and archaea.[17][18][19] It is synthesized by some bacteria in the gut flora in humans and other animals, but humans cannot absorb this as it is made in the colon, downstream from the small intestine, where the absorption of most nutrients occurs.[20] Ruminants, such as cows and sheep, absorb B12 produced by bacteria in their guts.[20] For gut bacteria of ruminants to produce B12 the animal must consume sufficient amounts of cobalt.[21] These grazing animals acquire the bacteria that produce vitamin B12, and the vitamin itself.

So we can produce b12 in our colons where it doesn't matter. This is fascinating to me.

I also found this tidbit. I have no idea if eating the following would effective for vegans. All of the sources I'm familiar with say vegans should take a vegan B12 supplement which is sound advice.

Natural sources of B12 include dried and fermented plant foods, such as tempeh, nori[27] and laver, a seaweed.[28][29][30] Many other types of algae are rich in vitamin B12, with some species, such as Porphyra yezoensis,[28] containing as much cobalamin as liver.[31][/QUOTE]

 

[whm1974]

So we can produce b12 in our colons where it doesn't matter. This is fascinating to me.

I also found this tidbit. I have no idea if eating the following would effective for vegans. All of the sources I'm familiar with say vegans should take a vegan B12 supplement which is sound advice.

Well the B12 is still provided by bacteria doing the fermenting and on the seaweed. However I don't think we can use it or it could be bind to other substances in the food.

 

[Staples]

From all I have read, if you drink milk and everything else is vegetarian, you will be just fine.