Do high end user use AMD instead of Intel?

[2is]

You said 'BNIB". I'm just playing along.

I also suggested how you could have better worded it to support your position. I'm secure enough that I don't mind helping you with your argument. I suggested I also correct your spelling when I quote you. Mostly just because it's easy though.

Anyone know if AMD is still making the FX8's? The 9590 kept dropping out of stock at Newegg last time I was watching it.

I said BNIB, I didn't say BNIB means current. That was your false interpretation. Not unlike your claim that Intel labels the i3 low end and were unable to provide anything to back that up when called out on it. As far as FX8 is concerned, it is AMD's current "high end for them" processor...

 

[Ramses]

I said BNIB, I didn't say BNIB means current. That was your false interpretation. Not unlike your claim that Intel labels the i3 low end and were unable to provide anything to back that up when called out on it. As far as FX8 is concerned, it is AMD's current "high end for them" processor...

You asked, I explained. Is misunderstanding the same as false interpretation?
I don't think I've ever heard that term used that way.

I even offered a way in which you could have worded it such that I'd not have interpreted it the way I did(and been moved to bring up the p2 and 486 which was deliberate and illustrative), and it was an honest suggestion.



You are making mountains out of molehills I think, my opinions don't matter, and I'm always very careful to qualify my thoughts with that they are just that, my thoughts. It's also possible to put forth one's thoughts and beliefs online for others to read and learn from without attacking them and accusing them of assorted things. It's counter-productive. It's easy and it's something to do, but it's not productive. I'm not upset since I've been doing this for twenty years now and as they say it ain't my first rodeo, you have a lot of info you could share but your delivery is leaving a bad taste in a lot of mouths. User CriticalOne's post on his i3 experience is a fine example of how to do it. Your side of our conversation the last couple pages is, in my opinion, not. I'm going to give it a rest and let you have what I expect will be a last gloating post as I said I would earlier, and that's OK too. I don't expect you to change your mind or tactics or personality as I assume you are a grown man with reasons for being who you are just as I have, but my morals dictate that I make the effort. Cheers.. :thumbsup:

 

[2is]

"BNIB" and "current" are mutually exclusive terms. You can have something that's current and not BNIB and you can have something that's BNIB and not current. I used both of them and my wording never said, suggested or implied one equates the other.

At this point, it seems like you're just trolling, because there is absolutely no way an intelligent, rational adult male or female would interpret what I said as anything related to a BNIB 486DX2 66. ESPECIALLY given the context of this thread.

 

[AtenRa]

i am looking at average framerate.

Edit: and I dont know where you are getting data for a 4.4 ghz FX. I am comparing stock to stock 8350 vs the i3.

There is an FX9370 at 4.4GHz in the graph above the Core i3 4330.

 

[escrow4]

An earth shattering 1 FPS more for minimum whilst using three times the power. SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[2is]

An earth shattering 1 FPS more for minimum whilst using three times the power. SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!

While having 3 fps lower average lol

 

[BSim500]

Cherry picking ??? i posted 4-5 games where the FX is faster and another 2-3 games where the FX is very close.

Sigh. Another one of "those" threads... The problem is, there are dozens of games where it isn't:-

AC Unity : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Action-Assassins_Creed_Unity-test-ac_proz.jpg
Alien Isolation : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ction-Alien_Isolation_-test-alien_proz_nv.jpg
BF4 Dragons Teeth : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...lefield_4_Dragons_Teeth-test-bf4_proz_amd.jpg
Borderlands PS : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...erlands_-_The_Pre-Sequel-test-border_proz.jpg
Bound by Flame : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-Action-Bound_By_Flame-test-bbf_proz.jpg
Civ Beyond Earth : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ion_Beyond_Earth-test-civilizationbe_proz.jpg
CoD AW : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Duty_Advanced_Warfare-test-cod_proz_intel.jpg
DayZ : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ories-Test_GPU-Action-DayZ-test-dayz_proz.jpg
Dead Rising 3 : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-Action-Dead_Rising_3-test-dr_3_proz.jpg
Evil Within : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ion-The_Evil_Within_-test-evilwithin_proz.jpg
Fable Anniversary : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt..._Anniversary_-test-Fable_Anniversary_proz.jpg
Far Cry 4 : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Test_GPU-Action-Far_Cry_4-nv-test-fc_proz.jpg
Grid Autosport : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...RID_Autosport-test-GRIDAutosport_proz_amd.jpg
Lichdom Battlemage : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ction-Lichdom_Battlemage-test-lb_proz_amd.jpg
Lords Of The Fallen : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt..._Of_The_Fallen-test-LordsOfTheFallen_proz.jpg
Metal Gear Solid V : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Gear_Solid_V_Ground_Zeroes_-test-mgs_proz.jpg
Metro LL Redux : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Metro_Last_Light_Redux-test-mtero_ll_proz.jpg
Shadow of Mordor : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...hadow_of_Mordor-test-ShadowOfMordor_proze.jpg
Styx Master of Shadows : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Styx_Master_of_Shadows-test-StyxGame_proz.jpg
Thief : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Thief_-test-proz.jpg
Vanishing Ethan Carter : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...f_Ethan_Carter_-test-AstronautsGame-_proz.jpg
World of Tanks : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-MMO-World_of_Tanks_9.0-test-wotproz.jpg

On a good day, AMD FX-8xxx are as fast as an i5. On a bad day, 220w $230 FX-9xxx can get beaten by even a 55w $110 i3, even in quite a large number of 2014-2015 AAA games. AMD's problem isn't performance on a good day or "embarrassingly parallel" integer apps or synthetics, it's a severe lack of consistency averaged over hundreds, even thousands of games, old & new. Regardless of how they're "branded" or "marketed" on the basis of "a 3 is lower than a 5 or 7 so it's 'low', whilst an 8 is higher than a 4 or 6 so it must be 'high'", there's a very good reason why they're priced relative to the i3. Neither i3's nor FX-8350 are "high end" chips. You only have to look at their prices and min fps slowdowns in many AAA games to see that.

That doesn't mean either are "useless" for gaming, especially if you are a "middle-weight" gamer who doesn't obsess over playing only bleeding edge games on Ultra. If you limit yourself only to certain types of newer games, it may be less of a problem, but in general, the more "wider" your collection of games, the more likely it is you will "bump heads" with FX chips getting any one core saturated far earlier due to lower IPC. Even 10-20 year old games like Operation Flashpoint : Cold War Crisis with 3,000-5,000m draw distance, Morrowind / Oblivion, or larger community modules on NWN1 or even Thief (1997) extra large community mods or 10,000 monster Doom WADs can still saturate a single modern CPU core (when everything runs on only one core) and result in 25-35fps on FX chips with 1 core at 100% and 7x sitting virtually idle, whilst even a Haswell Pentium manages +50fps. Fewer faster cores will give more consistency than slower MOAR CORES. It's exactly the same reason why i5 Intel gamers aren't going to "upgrade" to a 16-core Intel Atom based "gaming rig".

AMD have "bet the farm" on all software developers everywhere magically hand-tweaking every line of code for 8 cores, only to find half the software doesn't naturally scale that well, whilst the other half can scale slightly better but simply isn't worth the effort or increased debugging complexity, etc, (ie, games being booted out as quickly & cheaply as possible with little mind to optimization for budgetary / time constraint reasons). Benchmarks showing a CPU (FX-8350) with +300% more cores plus +30% higher clock speed on top gaining as little as +10-15% speed overall vs a dual-core being a perfect illustration of poor "many weak core" multi-thread scaling vs better "strong IPC" (thread independent) scaling in games in general, even in cases where the i3 occasionally loses.

As for the context of the thread, genuinely "high end" gamers will have top-end rigs in general : high-end (or multiple) GPU's, 16-32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, expensive monitors, gaming mice, headsets, etc. Suddenly arguing over $10-20 budget CPU price differences for a +$1,000 multi-GPU rig is utterly pointless, and an exercise in low-end to mid-range people on a tight budget sticking "high end" power-geek identity labels on themselves to not feel left out.

Really this stuff has all been done to death, over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over again...

 

[frozentundra123456]

Very well said BSim.

 

[AtenRa]

Sigh. Another one of "those" threads... The problem is, there are dozens of games where it isn't:-

AC Unity : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Action-Assassins_Creed_Unity-test-ac_proz.jpg
Alien Isolation : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ction-Alien_Isolation_-test-alien_proz_nv.jpg
BF4 Dragons Teeth : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...lefield_4_Dragons_Teeth-test-bf4_proz_amd.jpg
Borderlands PS : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...erlands_-_The_Pre-Sequel-test-border_proz.jpg
Bound by Flame : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-Action-Bound_By_Flame-test-bbf_proz.jpg
Civ Beyond Earth : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ion_Beyond_Earth-test-civilizationbe_proz.jpg
CoD AW : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Duty_Advanced_Warfare-test-cod_proz_intel.jpg
DayZ : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ories-Test_GPU-Action-DayZ-test-dayz_proz.jpg
Dead Rising 3 : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-Action-Dead_Rising_3-test-dr_3_proz.jpg
Evil Within : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ion-The_Evil_Within_-test-evilwithin_proz.jpg
Fable Anniversary : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt..._Anniversary_-test-Fable_Anniversary_proz.jpg
Far Cry 4 : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Test_GPU-Action-Far_Cry_4-nv-test-fc_proz.jpg
Grid Autosport : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...RID_Autosport-test-GRIDAutosport_proz_amd.jpg
Lichdom Battlemage : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...ction-Lichdom_Battlemage-test-lb_proz_amd.jpg
Lords Of The Fallen : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt..._Of_The_Fallen-test-LordsOfTheFallen_proz.jpg
Metal Gear Solid V : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Gear_Solid_V_Ground_Zeroes_-test-mgs_proz.jpg
Metro LL Redux : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Metro_Last_Light_Redux-test-mtero_ll_proz.jpg
Shadow of Mordor : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...hadow_of_Mordor-test-ShadowOfMordor_proze.jpg
Styx Master of Shadows : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...Styx_Master_of_Shadows-test-StyxGame_proz.jpg
Thief : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Thief_-test-proz.jpg
Vanishing Ethan Carter : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...f_Ethan_Carter_-test-AstronautsGame-_proz.jpg
World of Tanks : http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/htt...t_GPU-MMO-World_of_Tanks_9.0-test-wotproz.jpg

Cherry picking ??? i posted 4-5 games where the FX is faster and another 2-3 games where the FX is very close.
Well, its unlocked (unlike the Core i3) and ready to be overclocked and beat any Intel CPU at the same price.

Now have a look at those graphs above and see that i was correct (FX 4,4GHz), although i was talking about the latest AAA titles and dont forget i was explicitly referring to Mantle and DX-12 in my first post.
Ohh, you seam to forgot to include the latest games that the FX is faster by some reason, you know Witcher 3, GTA V, Watch Dogs, Dragon Age I etc etc.

ps. fanny there are 3 Mantle games in the links above and not even one was run with Mantle API.

 

[crashtech]

Can't we just call this fight and wait for Zen? Seriously, it's getting embarrassing.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You keep shifting goalposts. 4.4Ghz FX, then FX8320E etc. All depending on what you have been humiliated on last.

Even AMD dont want to use the FX crap.

 

[AtenRa]

You keep shifting goalposts. 4.4Ghz FX, then FX8320E etc.

Its one and the same

 

[ShintaiDK]

Its one and the same

Is it? Last time I checked an FX 8320E didnt do 4.4Ghz with stock settings.

But I am sure you will soon come up with how everyone overclocks, no new cooler is needed and that it still zips power. When the company selling them wont even use it. it should be a big freaking hint of epic proportions.

 

[AtenRa]

Is it? Last time I checked an FX 8320E didnt do 4.4Ghz with stock settings.

But I am sure you will soon come up with how everyone overclocks, no new cooler is needed and that it still zips power. When the company selling them wont even use it. it should be a big freaking hint of epic proportions.

I know you dont like Overclocking when the conversation includes LOCKED Intel CPUs, but the fact remains that an FX8320E can OC to 4.4GHz period.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I know you dont like Overclocking when the conversation includes LOCKED Intel CPUs, but the fact remains that an FX8320E can OC to 4.4GHz period.

And you like to avoid that everyone doesnt OC, that you cant guarantee their data. Not to mention you like to avoid the power consumption at 4.4Ghz, extra noise/heat, extra cost associated and so on.

Again, even AMD dont use FX CPUs.

 

[Enigmoid]

There is an FX9370 at 4.4GHz in the graph above the Core i3 4330.

The two are the same. If its not more than 5% difference its not significant by any means.

In a nearest fps chart like that the minimums could be 40.4 and 40.6. When coupled with run to run variation there is no significance.

 

[AtenRa]

And you like to avoid that everyone doesnt OC, that you cant guarantee their data. Not to mention you like to avoid the power consumption at 4.4Ghz, extra noise/heat, extra cost associated and so on.

Again, even AMD dont use FX CPUs.

And you like to avoid that here is the CPU and Overclocking forum and not everyone cares about power consumption.
Im sure you would be the first to promote an Overclocked Core i3 if intel would make such a SKU

 

[BSim500]

Now have a look at those graphs above and see that i was correct (FX 4,4GHz), although i was talking about the latest AAA titles and dont forget i was explicitly referring to Mantle and DX-12 in my first post.

So a whole slew of "well if you limit the renderer to Mantle, and if you only play certain AAA titles in certain years, and if you overclock only one CPU & ignore the resulting absurd 150-200w vs 55w disparity at same performance level, and if you ignore the 900MHz clock speed disparity against an i3 that's 300Mhz slower than the fastest i3-4370 which is only $9 (7%) more on Newegg for an 8.5% higher clock (3.8 vs 3.5GHz), and if..." exclusions then? Which ironically reinforces my overall point - FX chips are OK for a handful of games optimized for FX chips but when averaged across thousands of games (instead of the tiny percentage that use Mantle) however, IPC and fewer stronger cores are still king overall. Go back and reread my earlier post - on a good day, no-one disputes FX-8350 vs i3. The problem is - "good days" occur only half of the time, even in modern 2015 games. The issue isn't performance in the 5 games you managed to quote, or the next 5, or the 5 after that, it's consistency of performance in ALL of them (as in "thousands of them" of which a "high end" gamer will often own hundreds which will typically be a mix of old / new / middle aged, of well threaded / badly threaded / mostly somewhere in between, etc.)

Ohh, you seam to forgot to include the latest games that the FX is faster by some reason, you know Witcher 3, GTA V, Watch Dogs, Dragon Age I etc etc.

I didn't "forget", I simply pointed out what others did - "cherry picking" is a two-way door. You posted 5 games, then demanded the "need" for Mantle for future comparisons and then one-sided overclocking, and your $140 "premium high end gamer" isn't even what most people regard as high-end in terms of pricing for either brand. Meanwhile, I posted 22 in general and only stopped there because I got bored & lost interest, and it's been done to death so many times before. As I said, genuinely "high end" gamers don't nit-pick over $20 CPU price differences of low/mid-range CPU's for +$1,000 multi-GPU rigs or set themselves silly arbitrary budgets like "high end gaming CPU = exactly $139.99 and not one cent more", or move the goalposts where everyone's "high end CPU budget" magically drops by $50 on the same day as AMD announces $50 price cuts even if in a different tier of hardware, etc, to "talk up" the budget offerings. Seen and heard the sales pitch before my friend, with both CPU's, APU's & dGPU's alike...

 

[2is]

Seems AtenRa is running out of places to shift that goal post to.

 

[AtenRa]

So a whole slew of "well if you limit the renderer to Mantle, and if you only play certain AAA titles in certain years,

Why dont you first read my original post, then think for a minute and then say what you believe. ???

1: Play games especially Mantle and DX-12. But even latest DX-11 games are faster with the FX 8-core than Haswell Core i3.

As you can see i specifically mentioned the FX being faster in the latest AAA games and in Mantle/DX12. I was not talking about old games, i was not talking about DX-9 games i was not even talking about early DX-11 games.

I posted 22 in general and only stopped there because I got bored & lost interest,

It would have saved you all the trouble to gather all those benchmarks if you would only had read my original post. You know the one quoted above that speaks about latest AAA games and Mantle/DX-12. :whiste:

 

[myocardia]

As you can see i specifically mentioned the FX being faster in the latest AAA games and in Mantle/DX12. I was not talking about old games, i was not talking about DX-9 games i was not even talking about early DX-11 games.

Yes, you were talking about a cherry-picked, very small group of games, which is what he's been making fun of this entire time.

 

[AtenRa]

Yes, you were talking about a cherry-picked, very small group of games, which is what he's been making fun of this entire time.

Then he would have to commend about that games if he would like to say something about MY post, not posting 22 links of 2-3-4-5 years old games or older. He was responding to MY post after all, he was not talking in general.

 

[BSim500]

i was not talking about DX-9 games i was not even talking about early DX-11 games.

Yes but other people are, because as mentioned that's what real "heavy gamers" in the real world own - a large collection of them, and they typically want the highest and most consistent performance. How many DX12 games do you own? "You don't want to talk about DX9-11 games that form 99% of the PC gaming market because that's just silly". You are simply talking around people with empty fluff not to them, then tying yourself up in knots when they don't share the same arbitrary benchmarking restrictions as your imaginary "Mr. 5-game 'power' gamer"...

 

[myocardia]

Then he would have to commend about that games if he would like to say something about MY post, not posting 22 links of 2-3-4-5 years old games or older. He was responding to MY post after all, he was not talking in general.

I think that possibly this is a case of you and I not understanding each other, because of language 'issues'. To phrase it another way, he quoted you because he was ridiculing you. He was ridiculing you, because of your cherry-picking.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I know you dont like Overclocking when the conversation includes LOCKED Intel CPUs, but the fact remains that an FX8320E can OC to 4.4GHz period.

Why are we arguing about an 8320e at 4.4 GHz? Yeah, it's cheap, can be obtained even on some questionable 4+1 boards (and definitely on 6+2/8+2 boards), and doesn't suck up that much power compared to the 8350 or other, older FX chips.

Is that high-end? No. Why is that even in this discussion? No 8320e is going to push the kind of frames a true high-end user is going to want, certainly not in the latest game titles.

8320es with mild overclocks are for budget rigs. They can do "okay" in games. You can probably push one hard enough to get your minimum frames above 30 often enough to be respectable. But that ain't high-end.