Dispatch from Police Headquarters

[Darwin333]

Yep - those numbers are pretty much in line with my numbers as well. We can talk apples to apples now. So is it your contention that police are overpaid? Keep in mind that the general concensus among the trolls here is that police are corrupt thugs and that we need to improve them significantly.

Considering the absurd amount of benefits they get, their ability to supplement their income doing side work which the public still "insures" them while doing said side work, after working 20 or 30 years they get to quit and continue getting paid for life, and all of the other benefits that come with being a cop an argument can be made that they are.

One thing is for sure, they are not underpaid.

 

[WelshBloke]

Perhaps if you didn't make arrogance such a large part of your conversation, it would be easier to come to mutual understandings.

You really shouldn't call someone arrogant just because they can put together well reasoned arguments that are succinct and address relevant points in a way that you find hard to argue against.

I don't agree with every point he makes but he makes those points well and he does it with out excessively attacking other posters.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ok, I'm going to try to detach emotionally from this, but it isn't easy. If you look at any of these threads I've approached police abuse from as analytical perspective as possible. You won't find where you will find an example of abuse where I've said something akin to "good, the thug had it coming to him, I don't care if he was guilty or not."
So I'm not critical of criticism or even angst, but I think my being upset with you in particular is that you usually present arguments of value without blanket statements. Police abuse is wrong I'll remind you that those questions I asked about being beaten weren't abstractions. That precisely happened to me. I know first hand all those things, so I don't have to imagine, I know. So I deal with this as understanding that not every cop is going to attack me. They are individuals AND a group. There will be those on the force which will bitch about the minor things, but while I know you were in the service I don't know how many deaths you've had to deal with there and elsewhere. I won't discuss my past, but I do understand just how that plays out with a force who saw their own executed, and while (again) I know there are people who are scoundrels who need to be severely dealt with, I understand that it's more than my being upset with abuse which accounts for how people feel and act in this situation. So people are not dealing well with these incidents, not all of which are evil, and the solution of "well if they don't like it quit" irks me. It completely disregards good people, and offers no solution at all. Now maybe I missed your ideas somewhere but they all seem to center about turning your back to the issues and people and just went with "quit". It seems you are operating from a grudge perspective than anything else, and as I say I know what people really suffer.

If we don't approach this constructively from all perspectives to understand a complex situation then all is lost. Perhaps you were expressing frustration on things not moving along as we should, and maybe I was upset seeing someone who generally views things from a larger perspective doing the opposite.

So anyway that's what it is.

 

[cubby1223]

You really shouldn't call someone arrogant just because they can put together well reasoned arguments that are succinct and address relevant points in a way that you find hard to argue against.

I don't agree with every point he makes but he makes those points well and he does it with out excessively attacking other posters.

I was referring to the back and forth where he was making up a characterization of Hayabusa Rider and arguing against that characterization. Then Hayabusa would say, no, your description of me is incorrect, this is what I believe. Then eskimospy kept responding reinforcing his initial characterization of him.

That is not a well-reasoned argument, succinct, and addressing relevant points. It's childish bickering.

The complaints of the police here predate these deaths, however. They had already declared war on de Blasio because he had the temerity of criticize their conduct in any way. By the way, this happens with almost every mayor. As soon as they do anything that could be viewed as not entirely supporting the police position the cops go back to the same refrain of how constantly they are picked on. I'm tired of it.

Beginning with the base opinion of "[the police have] already declared war on de Blasio" does not make a rational, well-thought out argument. The arguments beyond have been thought-out. But the original basis, in my opinion, has not.

To me, seems like the mayor cannot take an ounce of criticism, else it is called "declaring war"? It's an extremist argumentative style. Highly unproductive.

If it's a well-thought out argument to attack the police in this manner over criticism, then it is equally well-thought out to say the same to those making arguments of war when a little criticism comes back in the reverse direction.
.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If saying 'his reasoning can be extended to the Jews in Germany' isn't calling someone a Nazi, what is?

Back in the 1920's there were people who weren't nazis but did witness horrific events, and the suffering of the Germans can hardly be overstated. The Nazis came to power because they took advantage of people's tendencies to generalize, in this case the Jews. The German people did not get up and say "let's become Nazis so we can gas the Jews, but their thought processes led to it. That's what I was getting at. That's why police have been executed. That's why white police who abuse minorities act as they do. "They" are worthy of contempt, and that all it takes in too many cases. You are not a Nazi.

 

[fskimospy]

Beginning with the base opinion of "[the police have] already declared war on de Blasio" does not make a rational, well-thought out argument. The arguments beyond have been thought-out. But the original basis, in my opinion, has not.

To me, seems like the mayor cannot take an ounce of criticism, else it is called "declaring war"? It's an extremist argumentative style. Highly unproductive.

If it's a well-thought out argument to attack the police in this manner over criticism, then it is equally well-thought out to say the same to those making arguments of war when a little criticism comes back in the reverse direction.
.

Look at what the police have done since de Blasio said that his son needed to take special care in his interactions with police:

- Circulated a petition asking de Blasio not to attend the funeral of any officer killed in the line of duty

- Released a public statement saying that de Blasio is partially responsible for the recent murder of those two officers

- Chartered a plane to fly around the city trailing a banner attacking the mayor

- Orchestrated a plan to turn their backs to the mayor in a nationally publicized funeral for the two murdered cops (this last one was particularly tasteless)

I mean they aren't shooting at the guy or anything, but in political terms this is about as much as I can think they could do to attack the mayor. All because he said something that most people agree is 100% true.

Does that seem like a reasonable response to you?

 

[fskimospy]

Ok, I'm going to try to detach emotionally from this, but it isn't easy. If you look at any of these threads I've approached police abuse from as analytical perspective as possible. You won't find where you will find an example of abuse where I've said something akin to "good, the thug had it coming to him, I don't care if he was guilty or not."
So I'm not critical of criticism or even angst, but I think my being upset with you in particular is that you usually present arguments of value without blanket statements. Police abuse is wrong I'll remind you that those questions I asked about being beaten weren't abstractions. That precisely happened to me. I know first hand all those things, so I don't have to imagine, I know. So I deal with this as understanding that not every cop is going to attack me. They are individuals AND a group. There will be those on the force which will bitch about the minor things, but while I know you were in the service I don't know how many deaths you've had to deal with there and elsewhere. I won't discuss my past, but I do understand just how that plays out with a force who saw their own executed, and while (again) I know there are people who are scoundrels who need to be severely dealt with, I understand that it's more than my being upset with abuse which accounts for how people feel and act in this situation. So people are not dealing well with these incidents, not all of which are evil, and the solution of "well if they don't like it quit" irks me. It completely disregards good people, and offers no solution at all. Now maybe I missed your ideas somewhere but they all seem to center about turning your back to the issues and people and just went with "quit". It seems you are operating from a grudge perspective than anything else, and as I say I know what people really suffer.

If we don't approach this constructively from all perspectives to understand a complex situation then all is lost. Perhaps you were expressing frustration on things not moving along as we should, and maybe I was upset seeing someone who generally views things from a larger perspective doing the opposite.

So anyway that's what it is.

In my opinion the real issue here is that the community and the police are totally estranged from one another. People in poor communities think that the police are simply out of control and are not accountable for abusive conduct.

To me the first and most obvious step (as I've mentioned before) is to empower the CCRB to discipline officers itself and to refer complaints to the state's attorneys office for prosecution of problematic cops. The current situation where the police police themselves naturally has a huge conflict of interest inherent in it and it feeds community distrust. (as well as enables further abuses)

I would say that I am personally offended by the conduct of the police in recent weeks; I think their reaction to de Blasio's statements has been totally inappropriate. Maybe that causes me to react more poorly to their position than I would otherwise, but these guys are coming off horribly. There is simply no excuse for saying the mayor bears partial responsibility for these murders.

There are plenty of wonderful cops in the world, and you're right that people trying to do the right thing are unfairly tarred with the same brush as the Pat Lynches of the world. I don't mean to attack the people who are doing the right thing, I am aiming at the people in charge who aren't.

But anyways, thank you for a civil and reasonable post. I genuinely appreciate it!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

In my opinion the real issue here is that the community and the police are totally estranged from one another. People in poor communities think that the police are simply out of control and are not accountable for abusive conduct.

To me the first and most obvious step (as I've mentioned before) is to empower the CCRB to discipline officers itself and to refer complaints to the state's attorneys office for prosecution of problematic cops. The current situation where the police police themselves naturally has a huge conflict of interest inherent in it and it feeds community distrust. (as well as enables further abuses)

I would say that I am personally offended by the conduct of the police in recent weeks; I think their reaction to de Blasio's statements has been totally inappropriate. Maybe that causes me to react more poorly to their position than I would otherwise, but these guys are coming off horribly. There is simply no excuse for saying the mayor bears partial responsibility for these murders.

There are plenty of wonderful cops in the world, and you're right that people trying to do the right thing are unfairly tarred with the same brush as the Pat Lynches of the world. I don't mean to attack the people who are doing the right thing, I am aiming at the people in charge who aren't.

But anyways, thank you for a civil and reasonable post. I genuinely appreciate it!

Sometimes I become too passionate I suppose and that's on me. Anyway I can see your points and I understand how this division cannot do anything other than cause misunderstanding and trouble. Anyway I should not have lost my temper, but hell I'm far from perfect. I suppose we would never argue is neither of us cared and in fairness I believe you do.

 

[shady28]

There are 461,000 sworn policemen in the United States. Yet you want to paint them with a broad brush. If they were black, what you're doing would be called racism (and would get you kicked out of this forum). If it was against a religion, it'd be discrimination. I could go on, but I doubt you'll concede the point anyway. So let's keep the generalizations going strong. It can do nothing but help the situation.

Ah, the one bad apple argument, 99.9% of cops are good guys, etc etc.

 

[Moonbeam]

I believe there are people who have deep wisdom living in the world and I think I ran into one once upon a time. He operated a kind of deprogramming school before he died and one of the things he said that has stuck with me was this. "Who shouldn't criticize? You!

To criticize another, I would think you would have to believe you know what the truth is better than they do. But how would we know that?

eskimo has said that the police are oversensitive to criticism of their tactics. It seems that when the Mayor was criticized for his comments about the police he seemed to want to back track. When Hay criticized the mentality of demonizing the police as a group he got criticized as a defender of the status quo to which he also reacted. eskimo didn't seem to enjoy being lumped in with racists.

It seems to me then that nobody is really defending police brutality or murdering police personal indiscriminately for their common use of force and profiling and that there is at least that communality Everybody wants just where their morality applies. We are all moral but we emphasize different aspects of morality. This can cause people to talk past each other, I think, and cause them to criticize.

I don't know about you but when I heard that I shouldn't criticize, it made me a little defensive. Can't imagine why.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sometimes I become too passionate I suppose and that's on me. Anyway I can see your points and I understand how this division cannot do anything other than cause misunderstanding and trouble. Anyway I should not have lost my temper, but hell I'm far from perfect. I suppose we would never argue is neither of us cared and in fairness I believe you do.

You're a joy. If it worth anything, I didn't see him as a Nazi or you as a police sympathizer trying to prevent police reform.

 

[Pulsar]

Ah, the one bad apple argument, 99.9% of cops are good guys, etc etc.

What is it with people around here wanting to put words in other people's mouths. Is it really that difficult to form a coherent argument?

In our country, we have about 2 million people in prison. That's about 1% give or take. Assuming that cops are half as likely as the general population (since they can't have any convictions to hire in) that leaves 2100 cops likely to commit felonies and end up in prison.

So while you try reductio-ad-absurdum to attempt to discredit the argument, that's the simple reality of the situation. That's 50 cops per state.

Kind of puts reality in perspective, doesn't it?

OH, and a jury released one of the officers in your 3 year old video. Another 2 plead out because they knew they'd lose in court.

 

[JockoJohnson]

The cops need to shut up because this country is a few more dead black kids from gutting every police force in the nation. And rightfully so, the police have shown themselves to be a community bent on avoiding responsibility at all costs.


I would love it if they took this time to reflect and maybe just maybe fire some of the murderers they protect. I'm not holding my breath.

Nobody is pitying you. We hate you.

Except for the last line, you are accurate. You know what else is accurate...substitute police with black community.

At what point do we ask the black community to take responsibility? They blame everybody but themselves. Until the police and the black communities recognize their faults and start taking responsible actions to correct these faults, we are going to continue this vicious cycle.

 

[Pulsar]

Considering the absurd amount of benefits they get, their ability to supplement their income doing side work which the public still "insures" them while doing said side work, after working 20 or 30 years they get to quit and continue getting paid for life, and all of the other benefits that come with being a cop an argument can be made that they are.

One thing is for sure, they are not underpaid.

Their benefits are, frankly, the same as the ones you'd find at union jobs in the big 3. I don't think they can really be classified as 'absurd'. How exactly can you find fault with them taking second jobs outside their primary one? Isn't that something to be admired? Why would you consider that part of their pay package?

I haven't been able to locate something that says police are still insured with their governmental insurance when they work a second job. I don't doubt you, but can you find a cite for it? I'm curious to read about how it works.

Regarding the 20/30 years they quit and continue getting paid for life, that's a pension and is pretty much standard in government work. I'll say it again though: a lot of police departments have trouble filling their positions. With the push (especially around here) to improve the quality of the police departments, is it really constructive to look at cutting their compensation?

 

[Pulsar]

The $90k figure is not counting benefits and overtime. It is counting base salary, longevity pay, uniform allowance, and things like that. It is all money that appears in their paycheck like a normal salary.

You may be unfamiliar with how police pay is structured in NYC, but none of that excuses accusing people who are accounting for it correctly of being liars. Check your facts first.



This is factually false. Median household income in NYC is approximately $52,000.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3651000.html

The median income for the US as a whole is about $53,000.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36000.html

This is census bureau data.

So not only is the median income in NYC not 28% higher than the US as a whole, it is actually lower. You may have been confusing Manhattan with NYC as a whole, and few cops live in Manhattan. In fact, plenty don't live in the city at all.



The data from the census bureau would indicate that the opposite of what you were alleging. Can you acknowledge this? I think people who do not live in NYC do not understand how the city actually is.

EDIT: And again, it's important to remember that your previous statement about $90k being inclusive of salary and benefits was wrong.

No I'm not doing it, you just didn't know what you were talking about. One thing that's important to remember though is that the numbers you are using appear to be household income numbers instead of individual income numbers. And remember, this is for PATROLMEN, not even the higher ranks that people will attain as they spend more time in.

If we are going to talk about purposeful misrepresentation of data the attempt to compare household income to individual income as if they were the same thing might be a good place to start, no?

EDIT 2! Actually to be fair I see earlier you were comparing individual to individual, which is good, so that's wrong on my part. That in no way changes the incorrect cost of living median income adjustments you were trying to do though.

I've already said what I recommend, which is to invest the CCRB with an independent ability to initiate prosecution and disciplinary action against the police.

So before you start trying to call people liars, declare that people are just whining, maybe check your facts.

Speaking of non-constructive whining, that's been my point from the beginning. The cops are whining when they are in fact quite coddled.

Ok. First, so you know I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass:
Salary.com says $61k for New York, New York. I originally quoted Albany, New York, which is a lower number.
http://www1.salary.com/NY/New-York/police-officer-salary.html

"By comparison, the New York City police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, makes $189,700, and average annual pay for city police officers ranges from $43,062 for a cadet entering the academy to $90,829 for an officer with five and a half years on the job, including overtime and other earnings, according to Paul J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman. In New York City, salaries for captains start at $108,342, and grow after four years to $135,524."

So that's including overtime and other earnings.

Payscale.com suggests that NYPD is paid on par with other police departments and still isn't citing the figure you are:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=New_York_Police_Department_(NYPD)/Salary

Where are you getting the $90k salary from, NOT including overtime, vacation, and benefits?

You're right about the US median income being higher than I originally stated. This was the search I performed and I didn't notice that it said 2004 =/. Mea culpa.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=median income in the us

I said around $54000. You said $52000 with regards to New York. Really? Do you want to argue over $2k?

 

[fskimospy]

Ok. First, so you know I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass:
Salary.com says $61k for New York, New York. I originally quoted Albany, New York, which is a lower number.
http://www1.salary.com/NY/New-York/police-officer-salary.html

I'm using the census bureau data though, which I think we can both agree is probably more accurate than salary.com.

"By comparison, the New York City police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, makes $189,700, and average annual pay for city police officers ranges from $43,062 for a cadet entering the academy to $90,829 for an officer with five and a half years on the job, including overtime and other earnings, according to Paul J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman. In New York City, salaries for captains start at $108,342, and grow after four years to $135,524."

So that's including overtime and other earnings.

Payscale.com suggests that NYPD is paid on par with other police departments and still isn't citing the figure you are:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=New_York_Police_Department_(NYPD)/Salary

Where are you getting the $90k salary from, NOT including overtime, vacation, and benefits?

From the NYPD itself:

http://www.nypdrecruit.com/benefits-salary/overview

At 5.5 years the base salary is ~$76,000 and total pay is about $90,000.

To quote the NYPD :

The above total compensation includes top base pay, longevity pay, holiday pay, uniform allowance, and average night shift differential. It does not include overtime.

And to be clear, longevity pay is a big part of that but should absolutely be counted as part of their normal salary. It is simply extra pay you get for having spent more time working at the NYPD.

You're right about the US median income being higher than I originally stated. This was the search I performed and I didn't notice that it said 2004 =/. Mea culpa.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=median income in the us

I said around $54000. You said $52000 with regards to New York. Really? Do you want to argue over $2k?

I wasn't really arguing over that number, I was arguing over the differential in pay between the US median household income and the NYC median household income. Had it simply been the $2k difference I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it. I was using it to show that NYC does not actually have a higher median income than the US as a whole, so adding the 28% premium on top wasn't correct.

The important takeaway there is that after 5.5 years the average NYPD patrolman is making in individual income close to twice the median household income for the city as a whole, and doing so in a job that only requires a high school diploma. This doesn't mean that we need to cut their pay, but I think it certainly means we can demand a higher standard of conduct out of them.

 

[Moonbeam]

but I think it certainly means we can demand a higher standard of conduct out of them.

My guess is that you would not draw a straight across ratio between what we should expect by way of morality from people and what we pay them. I don't think anybody would accept inhumane treatment of people from folk earning minimum wage. I think it's fair to expect people perform with decency at any level of compensation. The question then becomes what are we talking about when we talk of a higher level of conduct.

As I have suggested elsewhere in this thread, the police culture is the product of mechanical forces, human nature constantly exposed to the worst of our natures, the ease with which the justification for the use of force to subdue violent and atrocious behavior can be rationalized and is actually required at times. We are asking police to deal with the worst behaviors in our society and not be tainted by that.

The result, in my opinion, is that long established police organizations will develop an us vs. them mentality that will inevitably draw public condemnation augmenting that us vs. them feeling.

In order to affect the mechanical nature of the process we are discussing requires, in my opinion, conscious understanding. I don't think, strictly speaking, we can demand anything. You can't demand that one gear in a transmission stop. To alter the situation requires that we do systemic change.

Consciousness has to be raised. We will or we will not want to live in a police state. If we don't, we will also want to find ways the reduce the need for police. I believe that conscious awareness and morality go hand in hand. We want, I think, to build a world that is more life affirming. That always begins with the self. As individuals acquire better and better self understanding the nature of the machine changes. The more people who awaken to the nature of the machine, the more people awaken, I think.

 

[OutHouse]

Honestly, is there any group in America that is less able to take criticism?

Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton

 

[Pulsar]

I'm using the census bureau data though, which I think we can both agree is probably more accurate than salary.com.

From the NYPD itself:

Ok. I always admit when I am wrong. That is astounding. I will say this about it though:

(html tags are not working right now? I couldn't italicize this to show it was a quote. Wierd).

Comparisons
The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that police officers across the nation as a whole receive an average annual salary of $56,260. This amounts to less than the total compensation package of a NYPD officer with three-and-a-half years on the job. NYPD police officers are among the highest paid in the country, although cops in the San Jose, Sunnyvale and Santa Clara area of California are the top earners with annual salaries of $96,030.


The NYPD are not representative of the normal payscale - not even close.

 

[Pulsar]

Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton

Blacks.......

(Note to mods: No, I am not trolling or being racist. If you look at the black community's response to criticism from people of their own color suggesting that they need to take partial responsibility for their situation you will find a plethora of examples of total denial and outright hostility.)

 

[TreVader]

Except for the last line, you are accurate. You know what else is accurate...substitute police with black community.



At what point do we ask the black community to take responsibility? They blame everybody but themselves. Until the police and the black communities recognize their faults and start taking responsible actions to correct these faults, we are going to continue this vicious cycle.

First of all the two communities are fundamentally different in nature. Police officers are PAYED to be police officers, and can stop whenever they want. Black people are not payed to be anything! On top of that, there really is no cohesive "black community" anyway. You are just talking about people in the ghetto and poor people, and extrapolating their actions and beliefs onto the predominant skin color you see when you look at the ghetto on TV. Holding black people as a whole or individually responsible for the actions of one guy in the ghetto one time is bullshit and you're either intellectually dishonest or stupid to suggest otherwise.



Also, even if your stupid idea that people with one skin color should be held responsible for all others with that skin color is true, how have any of these black murders avoided responsibility? Last time I checked they usually get put in prison or killed! I don't see black guys who just shot cops in press conferences the next day, drinking soda and casually discussing their cop murders. They certainly at least get indicted!

You are so wrapped up in your bullshit ideas about black people that you excuse cops who murder citizens in general ALL THE TIME and almost always get away with it!

 

[Blanky]

Ah, the one bad apple argument, 99.9% of cops are good guys, etc etc.

I personally think a small percentage of cops are truly assholes, it's just the bulk of the rest of them are either of questionable moral character or, more likely, simply lack the backbone or have not been given the tools to do what's right, which is why they will quite happily watch another cop break the law and they do nothing at all to report it. They are simply human and people tend to not want to rock the boat, so they are content enough to watch another cop act in a criminal manner and do nothing about it because it's basically a huge hassle.

 

[Linux23]

"A dash cam video obtained by investigative reporter Sarah Wallace has helped clear Marcus Jeter of Bloomfield, New Jersey who was facing several criminal charges, which included eluding police and assault... The police of course were in possession of the dash cam video but none who viewed it sought to prevent an innocent man from going to prison, instead they filed a false report that the video did not show any wrongdoing by officers."

http://www.blacktalkradionetwork.co...rsey-cops-plan-to-frame-innocent-man-exposed/

Sad, that poor SOB would have been sitting in prison had it not been for the dash cam footage. Pissed me off seeing these thugs violating this mans rights.

And the sad thing is this is systemic. It's not just this isolated incident.

 

[Blanky]

Sad, that poor SOB would have been sitting in prison had it not been for the dash cam footage. Pissed me off seeing these thugs violating this mans rights.

And the sad thing is this is systemic. It's not just this isolated incident.

the two Bloomfield police officers, one white and one non-white, who tried to frame him for a crime he did not commit have been indicted for falsifying reports and one of the thug officers was charged with assault. A third officer pled guilty but faced no jail time and was allowed to retire. None of the other officers involved in the conspiracy to cover up this injustice have been charged.

When so little is done to punish these thugs they lack the motivation to not break the law. Knowingly working toward somebody going to prison for something they didn't commit should have an automatic and unavoidable jail sentence.

 

[Kushina]

Or you could be polite/respectful towards the officer and get a verbal and/or written warning. This has been my experiece 7 times over the last 30 years. Other posters have stated such in here as well.

Depends on your area IMO, there's some officers I've gotten along with great, nice friendly guys. Peter Parker types. Some more serious but still decent people. Some just angry, short sighted and stupid. The latter are often in bigger cities.