Dispatch from Police Headquarters

[Hayabusa Rider]

I've posted these stats in regards to police before on this forum. Certainly bares repeating for those making police safety the focal authoritarian state excuse....

Like you said, meanwhile.....

More People in Utah Are Killed by Police Than Die in Gang or Drug Violence
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...nvolved_homicides_common_newspaper_finds.html

The problem here is this. More police shoot people in Utah than gangs. My question is just what does that mean? How many shootings were done to prevent someone from firing upon a citizen in a robbery or attack? How many of those gang shootings were to prevent a crime? Then we picked Utah, the land of the exceedingly boring. Now how about CA? Just LA? Gang related killings vs wrongful shooting by police? Just what does it mean? I sure can't tell from Slate.

 

[berzerker60]

The problem here is this. More police shoot people in Utah than gangs. My question is just what does that mean? How many shootings were done to prevent someone from firing upon a citizen in a robbery or attack? How many of those gang shootings were to prevent a crime? Then we picked Utah, the land of the exceedingly boring. Now how about CA? Just LA? Gang related killings vs wrongful shooting by police? Just what does it mean? I sure can't tell from Slate.

But you can tell that the tremendously low amount of police officers being shot (and even less once accounting for accident and/or suicide) indicates that the "police put their lives on the line every day, risking life and limb and at great personal peril, who are we to judge?!?" excuse is a bunch of nonsense.

They're way, way, way more likely to die driving to the scene of a crime than they are in a gunfight. Want to save police lives? Take the money that goes to a SWAT team and armored personnel carriers and for every tiny county and spend it on better public transit.

 

[fskimospy]

I wasn't aware you would be immune to persecution if you converted to a practicing Jew when you weren't one before.

Even if the choices you make are good? No, I don't accept your excuse for bigotry.

There's no excusing bigotry here, there is well deserved criticism of the police happening.

This is symptomatic of the whole problem, you can't even say obviously true things about the police without people flipping out. One of the reasons America has such a problem with its police is reasons like this.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

But you can tell that the tremendously low amount of police officers being shot (and even less once accounting for accident and/or suicide) indicates that the "police put their lives on the line every day, risking life and limb and at great personal peril, who are we to judge?!?" excuse is a bunch of nonsense.

They're way, way, way more likely to die driving to the scene of a crime than they are in a gunfight. Want to save police lives? Take the money that goes to a SWAT team and armored personnel carriers and for every tiny county and spend it on better public transit.

I won't disagree with the police job being less dangerous in terms of being shot. To argue otherwise won't hold water. I do wonder how police work would rate in terms of stress relative to other jobs. That could be a useful statistic in understanding what's going on in full context.

 

[fskimospy]

the lesson here is clear. The true victims here are the police as they have to endure people telling them they don't want them to kill quite as many civilians each year.

I wonder how they endure.

 

[Dari]

I won't disagree with the police job being less dangerous in terms of being shot. To argue otherwise won't hold water. I do wonder how police work would rate in terms of stress relative to other jobs. That could be a useful statistic in understanding what's going on in full context.

You do realize that most of their day involves paperwork, right? Or just sitting in the office or cruiser talking to G-d knows who. And the vast majority of their calls are not hot. Just complaints.

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You do realize that most of their day involves paperwork, right? Or just sitting in the office or cruiser talking to G-d knows who. And the vast majority of their calls are not hot. Just complaints.

I understand that. I also know that when in war standing around waiting and doing busy work occupies the most time for most soldiers. Yet I would say that seeing combat and it's consequences makes for a different situation than the domestic restocking of shelves. The truth is that I don't know what the stress of various jobs is and I don't know of comparative studies which explore this issue, something important to health care in general if not the public at large.

 

[her209]

Wow lol you're like a walking talking stereotype

Objectively, some of the shootings are justified legally, others are not. Its a case by case basis. In the scenario described where the unarmed guy was shot in the stairwell they probably took action against the cop.

Only action to date is that the gun and badge has been taken and he's been on modified duty pending a grand jury decision. Based on past history, the grand jury will fail to indict Officer Liang on any charges.

I've yet to be surprised by any of the verdicts on these cases. The media is trolling the liberals hard.

There can be no verdict if there is no trial.

:awe:

 

[berzerker60]

I won't disagree with the police job being less dangerous in terms of being shot. To argue otherwise won't hold water. I do wonder how police work would rate in terms of stress relative to other jobs. That could be a useful statistic in understanding what's going on in full context.

If people want to argue for better psychological counseling and violent situation deescalation training for cops, I'm 100% in favor of that. Giving people with PTSD bigger and more dangerous guns and immunity from the law for killing people would not be my preferred solution.

 

[rommelrommel]

There can be no verdict if there is no trial.

:awe:

You're a pedophile then until you go to trial for it.

See how that one works?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If people want to argue for better psychological counseling and violent situation deescalation training for cops, I'm 100% in favor of that. Giving people with PTSD bigger and more dangerous guns and immunity from the law for killing people would not be my preferred solution.

I think you have something here. Clearly something is broken in the system, and there's no doubt a whole lot of reasons for it, which I don't pretend to understand. One place to start perhaps would be outside independent oversight which requires some sort of mandatory counselling. That's going to be hard to implement because police have circled the wagons and there is a culture of protectionism which exists for real or imagined reasons but needs to be dealt with anyway. Your suggestion doesn't demonize anyone nor are you suggesting unaccountability. It's a place to start a discussion on how one might approach rational reform.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Clearly something is broken in the system

But getting the police and others to admit that is the problem.....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

But getting the police and others to admit that is the problem.....

That is true. It's also true that there are police who chose the career because it was a way of serving. I've known some of the latter and I was once beaten by one with no concern of reprisal merely because I was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Oh, I know all this well. I posted about it a couple of times over the years.

Yet I don't hate or wish to hate. Injustice needs to end without becoming one of the bigots. How to go about it is the puzzle.

 

[TreVader]

Everyone here is aware that cops, like "Jews" or "republicans" are people who can be stereotyped. Nobody is disputing that people do stereotype them. How does that invalidate any of the criticisms currently being levied at the police?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Everyone here is aware that cops, like "Jews" or "republicans" are people who can be stereotyped. Nobody is disputing that people do stereotype them. How does that invalidate any of the criticisms currently being levied at the police?

What criticism? That there are systemic problems and individuals which are distinct problems at the very least and executioners at worst, or that the ones who are exactly the opposite should be painted in the same light? I'll go along with the former, but I understand those who do try to do good being demoralized nonetheless, just like I can understand the majority of blacks who are good citizens being dismayed by being stigmatized by the few who are scoundrels. That one group of good people is deserving of abuse and the other not isn't something I subscribe to. But I never said that as an organization the police is guiltless. Indeed, I remember just how painful that fact can be.

 

[Moonbeam]

When oppression exists there is a reaction to it. The reaction can be as bad as the repression. The fear of the reaction to oppression by oppressors leads to the logic that further and more excessive oppression is required, leading to worst reactions to it. This is why a just society must be awake to it's own repression so this cycle of destruction doesn't start.

One can jump in on this circle at any point, where black crime demands police response or police brutality demands reform. In all of it there is nobody to blame but the system. The cog of black profiling by police connects to many other wheels in our system, poverty, ghettoization, racism,. etc. etc.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

When oppression exists there is a reaction to it. The reaction can be as bad as the repression. The fear of the reaction to oppression by oppressors leads to the logic that further and more excessive oppression is required, leading to worst reactions to it. This is why a just society must be awake to it's own repression so this cycle of destruction doesn't start.

One can jump in on this circle at any point, where black crime demands police response or police brutality demands reform. In all of it there is nobody to blame but the system. The cog of black profiling by police connects to many other wheels in our system, poverty, ghettoization, racism,. etc. etc.

All true. It seems to me that it's all entwined as you say. Perhaps we as individuals must say "no more" and encourage others to not participate in the trap of hate as best we can. I can't fix the world, but I don't have to contribute to its ills, and maybe, just maybe, you and I and others can do some good where we are. Maybe it's not enough, but it's something.

 

[Zorkorist]

A lot of it has to do with our Government, forcing things on society (bussing.) Their power over our every day relations (minimum wage,) and their spending out of control (inflation,) making it impossible for a low wage person to survive, if not on the Government dole.

Once low wage people are on the Government Dole, here we are.

-John

 

[fskimospy]

Can I also say that if these cops are so sad about their job, so depressed about how horribly treated they are, they are free to quit any time. I'm sure there are plenty of places lining up to pay people with a high school diploma close to $100k a year after 5 years on the job.

 

[Pulsar]

Can I also say that if these cops are so sad about their job, so depressed about how horribly treated they are, they are free to quit any time. I'm sure there are plenty of places lining up to pay people with a high school diploma close to $100k a year after 5 years on the job.

Unfortunately you're a snapshot of the type of thing Hyabusa is talking about. You can't take your emotion and bias out of the issue, and are ready to jump on board with rhetoric and twisted facts.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Employment Statistics Survey, as of May 2008, the average annual wage for police and sheriff's patrol officers was $52,810 versus $42,270 for all occupations combined.

The median annual wage for police and detectives was $56,980 in May 2012. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less.

Police Officer Law Enforcement $66,000
Military Law Enforcement Officer $66,000
Upscale Security Officer Guard $21,000
Explosive Ordnance Disposal $123,000
Police Officer Recruit $56,000
Police Officer GL $36,000
Police Officer Lateral $70,000
Special Police Officer $33,000
Traditional Security Officer Guard $20,000
Security Officer Tso $19,000
Custom Protection Security Officer $25,000
Security Officer Security Guard $20,000
Police Recruit $49,000
Corrections Sergeant Master $41,000
Critical Facility Security Officer $26,000

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm

Salary
The current yearly salary for a Police Officer Recruit in the Police Academy is $46,412 After graduating the academy as a Police Officer, you receive a pay increase to $49,632. There are scheduled increases in pay to the present maximum of $64,459 a year. Overtime is paid at the level of time and a half. There are excellent opportunities for promotion, which will result in a corresponding raise in salaries. Police Officers are paid biweekly. Salary does not include your annual uniform allowance or holiday time.

https://www.tulsapolice.org/join-tpd/salary-and-benefits.aspx

Austin, one of the higher paid locations:
http://austintexas.gov/page/benefits-and-salary

New Jersey, the HIGHEST paid location and clearly way out of whack with reality:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/nj_police_salaries_rank_highes.html

Recruiter.com:
A Police Patrol Officer will normally get a compensation between 32000 and 48000 depending on education and tenure levels. Police Patrol Officers earn a compensation of Forty Eight Thousand Four Hundred dollars per year.

So if your point was to pick the highest paid location in the country and claim that it is representative of the country as a whole, you managed it. *golf clap*

 

[shady28]

Unfortunately you're a snapshot of the type of thing Hyabusa is talking about. You can't take your emotion and bias out of the issue, and are ready to jump on board with rhetoric and twisted facts.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Employment Statistics Survey, as of May 2008, the average annual wage for police and sheriff's patrol officers was $52,810 versus $42,270 for all occupations combined.

The median annual wage for police and detectives was $56,980 in May 2012. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less.
...
...
So if your point was to pick the highest paid location in the country and claim that it is representative of the country as a whole, you managed it. *golf clap*

First, the 90K is the Average salary in New York for a cop, that's without benefits and without overtime :

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-New-York,-NY.html

This shows the median for all occupations in the USA, as well as the mean :

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000

The median wage in the USA is 16.87 / hr.

Without overtime that 16.87/hr comes out to 35,089.

If we compare apples to apples here (no overtime pay) then we are comparing 35,089 to 56,980. Even so, we're still not comparing benefits beyond the 'median' through the country - my guess is pension alone makes the cop job worth another 10k/yr easy, probably more.

But lets stick with what we know.

Cop without overtime : 56,980
Everyone w/o overtime: 35,089

Cops across the country get paid 62% higher than the median for all other occupations (MANY of which require certifications and/or degrees).

Now if we narrow this down a bit more, what do people who have only a HS diploma or "some college" make?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html

In 2010, those with just a HS diploma median was 30,000/yr. Those with a HS diploma + some college median was 33,000.

Note: This is for YEAR ROUND FULL TIME WORKERS ONLY. It wouldn't include people having 2 part time jobs, for example. Obviously, the number would be lower than 30k/33k if it covered everyone.

So what do we have -

For those that hold full time year-round jobs :

Cop with no degree : 56k/yr

Normal person with no degree : 30-33k.
Normal person with an AA degree : 38k
Normal person with Bachelors degree : 47k
Normal person with a Masters Degree : 57k
Normal person with a PHD : 77k

So each step of this way we've given something to the cops that doesn't show here. Overtime, comparison only with those holding full time/ year round jobs, and discounting benefits.

And even with those concessions, a normal person needs a masters degree to make a cops base salary.

And I am pretty sure we're talking about a 'beat cop' here, where the other numbers are medians for many levels of advancement within many fields.

 

[Pulsar]

First, the 90K is the Average salary in New York for a cop, that's without benefits and without overtime :

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-New-York,-NY.html

This shows the median for all occupations in the USA, as well as the mean :

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000

The median wage in the USA is 16.87 / hr.

Without overtime that 16.87/hr comes out to 35,089.

If we compare apples to apples here (no overtime pay) then we are comparing 35,089 to 56,980. Even so, we're still not comparing benefits beyond the 'median' through the country - my guess is pension alone makes the cop job worth another 10k/yr easy, probably more.

But lets stick with what we know.

Cop without overtime : 56,980
Everyone w/o overtime: 35,089

Cops across the country get paid 62% higher than the median for all other occupations (MANY of which require certifications and/or degrees).

Now if we narrow this down a bit more, what do people who have only a HS diploma or "some college" make?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html

In 2010, those with just a HS diploma median was 30,000/yr. Those with a HS diploma + some college median was 33,000.

Note: This is for YEAR ROUND FULL TIME WORKERS ONLY. It wouldn't include people having 2 part time jobs, for example. Obviously, the number would be lower than 30k/33k if it covered everyone.

So what do we have -

For those that hold full time year-round jobs :

Cop with no degree : 56k/yr

Normal person with no degree : 30-33k.
Normal person with an AA degree : 38k
Normal person with Bachelors degree : 47k
Normal person with a Masters Degree : 57k
Normal person with a PHD : 77k

So each step of this way we've given something to the cops that doesn't show here. Overtime, comparison only with those holding full time/ year round jobs, and discounting benefits.

And even with those concessions, a normal person needs a masters degree to make a cops base salary.

And I am pretty sure we're talking about a 'beat cop' here, where the other numbers are medians for many levels of advancement within many fields.

Yep - those numbers are pretty much in line with my numbers as well. We can talk apples to apples now. So is it your contention that police are overpaid? Keep in mind that the general concensus among the trolls here is that police are corrupt thugs and that we need to improve them significantly.

 

[TreVader]

It sounds even worse when you actually put the salaries for people with advanced degrees up there for comparison.

Who here can argue that a beat cop represents a community asset equivalent to someone with a Masters degree (without overtime). In reality these cops pull about as much as a doctor in residency with all the bullshit overtime they run up stuffing their faces at Krispy Creme.


It's disgusting and I am SO glad this country is finally fed up with our fat and petulant overlords. They had a good run but they got cocky.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yep - those numbers are pretty much in line with my numbers as well. We can talk apples to apples now. So is it your contention that police are overpaid? Keep in mind that the general concensus among the trolls here is that police are corrupt thugs and that we need to improve them significantly.

I'm not getting that sense from some. The one I've exchanged posts with definitely acts that police are corrupt thugs and they need to not be improved but scorned and punished. The hate is palpable. Improvement? Sure, I'm all over that when it comes to accountability, but I don't resent what they earn. Of course when you hate like that anything is fair game. I just lumped him in the "hopeless racist mentality" category and there's nothing to be gained from my interacting with him and others like him.