Dispatch from Police Headquarters

[TreVader]

I'm not getting that sense from some. The one I've exchanged posts with definitely acts that police are corrupt thugs and they need to not be improved but scorned and punished. The hate is palpable. Improvement? Sure, I'm all over that when it comes to accountability, but I don't resent what they earn. Of course when you hate like that anything is fair game. I just lumped him in the "hopeless racist mentality" category and there's nothing to be gained from my interacting with him and others like him.

Yes because hating the police for murdering black people and getting away with it (or defending cops who do) is equivalent to blindly hating people for the color of their skin, right?


It speaks to how tolerant you are of racism in your own life to even make the analogy. You're human garbage, and I likewise consider you to be among the worst racists here.

You obviously are totally ok with summarily executing black children. What aren't you ok with?

Let me guess, white slavery?

 

[fskimospy]

Yep - those numbers are pretty much in line with my numbers as well. We can talk apples to apples now. So is it your contention that police are overpaid? Keep in mind that the general concensus among the trolls here is that police are corrupt thugs and that we need to improve them significantly.

You seriously need to go look at the numbers he linked again, they are not in line with what you are saying. He is talking about how cops enjoy a premium of 62% in median earnings despite being a job with quite low requirements compared to the average job.

I think you're seeing what you want to see, you need to look at the numbers objectively. Police get paid a lot more than people with similar credentials. The police are acting like they are so picked on here, and all I was saying is that they are free to quit any time they want if they don't want the potential for public criticism that comes with their much larger salary. They could also go back to school and increase their qualifications so that they can qualify for a similar paying job that doesn't come with the same scrutiny.

Also, why were you complaining about me using NYPD salaries as a basis for comparison when this thread is about the NYPD? It would have been insane to use any other number.

 

[fskimospy]

I wasn't aware you would be immune to persecution if you converted to a practicing Jew when you weren't one before.

Even if the choices you make are good? No, I don't accept your excuse for bigotry.

Good thing I don't accept bigotry in any form. What you're doing here is precisely the problem you think that criticizing the public actions of public servants is bigotry.

If anything, you're helping to make the problem worse. Whenever you get to a situation where the police cannot be criticized then you are simply enabling more bad behavior. It's important for people to get past that inherent pro-police bias and look at the situation rationally instead of trying to shut down debate with ridiculous Godwining of threads.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes because hating the police for murdering black people and getting away with it (or defending cops who do) is equivalent to blindly hating people for the color of their skin, right?


It speaks to how tolerant you are of racism in your own life to even make the analogy. You're human garbage, and I likewise consider you to be among the worst racists here.

You obviously are totally ok with summarily executing black children. What aren't you ok with?

Let me guess, white slavery?

I forget. Where did I say police should get away with murdering anyone? Oh, I didn't. Did I defend police who don't and do what is right? Yes. Since you are such a bigot that you can't see that your opinions mean nothing. Not to me, and good luck trying to convince that anyone else about me, whom you know nothing about. You are dismissed as the fool you are.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Good thing I don't accept bigotry in any form. What you're doing here is precisely the problem you think that criticizing the public actions of public servants is bigotry.

If anything, you're helping to make the problem worse. Whenever you get to a situation where the police cannot be criticized then you are simply enabling more bad behavior. It's important for people to get past that inherent pro-police bias and look at the situation rationally instead of trying to shut down debate with ridiculous Godwining of threads.

Well rationally leaves you out. You are a bigot full of hatred and have demonstrated that without my assistance. You are also dismissed, and while you don't care (and I know I don't care you do), you have revealed your true self. You lack understanding and wish to remain ignorant. So be it. Go piss on a cop. Say whatever you want in response, as I am dismissing you, literally.

 

[fskimospy]

Well rationally leaves you out. You are a bigot full of hatred and have demonstrated that without my assistance. You are also dismissed, and while you don't care (and I know I don't care you do), you have revealed your true self. You lack understanding and wish to remain ignorant. So be it. Go piss on a cop. Say whatever you want in response, as I am dismissing you, literally.

If you can't argue against someone's position, desperately search for a way to discount their position by other means. Your irrational hatred of people who criticize the police is its own form of bigotry. It's sad that this bigotry is so ingrained in you that you have an irrational and visceral response to anyone that might be threatening your preferred groups.

Your position here is deeply ironic. In other threads you constantly worry about people you perceive to be in power hurting those less than them. When that injury comes by independent people choosing not to engage with someone economically you freak out. When people are criticizing the police for engaging in actual, physical abuse of power, you jump to the defense of those in power.

You don't really care about power or lack thereof, you care that your favored groups are treated better. Gross.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This message is hidden because eskimospy is on your ignore list.

Please, continue.

 

[fskimospy]

Lol.

"I CAN'T HEAAAAARRRRR YOUUUUUU"

 

[shady28]

Yep - those numbers are pretty much in line with my numbers as well. We can talk apples to apples now. So is it your contention that police are overpaid? Keep in mind that the general concensus among the trolls here is that police are corrupt thugs and that we need to improve them significantly.

You know, if police were doing a professional job and didn't have a long well documented history of widespread framing of innocent people, physical abuse, murder, and non-accountability I probably wouldn't have a problem with their pay.

ie, if they act like professionals then sure pay them like professionals.

But they aren't, neither are the police chiefs, nor the DA's, and in some cases even the judges.

So yes, I think they are vastly over paid for the shitty job they are doing with little to no accountability.



" A man has brought forth evidence that a team of police officers repeatedly intimidated him with prison time if he didn’t find someone to frame up with a weapons charge."

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/st-louis-police-framing-gun-charges/


"An attorney for a man who accused two Los Angeles police officers of lying about his arrest and trying to frame him blasted a judge's decision on Tuesday not to jail the officers."

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/ju...or-police-perjury-as-way-too-lenient-20130625


"A dash cam video obtained by investigative reporter Sarah Wallace has helped clear Marcus Jeter of Bloomfield, New Jersey who was facing several criminal charges, which included eluding police and assault... The police of course were in possession of the dash cam video but none who viewed it sought to prevent an innocent man from going to prison, instead they filed a false report that the video did not show any wrongdoing by officers."

http://www.blacktalkradionetwork.co...rsey-cops-plan-to-frame-innocent-man-exposed/


"Taylor could not have committed the slayings because he was in police custody on a disorderly conduct charge at the time they were committed, police “fabricated evidence” against him. That evidence included, according to the lawsuit, falsifying a police report to include an encounter between Taylor and police outside one victim’s apartment the night of the slayings at a time they already knew he was in police custody."

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/02/03/man-cleared-of-double-murder-sues-chicago-police/

 

[Pulsar]

You seriously need to go look at the numbers he linked again, they are not in line with what you are saying. He is talking about how cops enjoy a premium of 62% in median earnings despite being a job with quite low requirements compared to the average job.

I think you're seeing what you want to see, you need to look at the numbers objectively. Police get paid a lot more than people with similar credentials. The police are acting like they are so picked on here, and all I was saying is that they are free to quit any time they want if they don't want the potential for public criticism that comes with their much larger salary. They could also go back to school and increase their qualifications so that they can qualify for a similar paying job that doesn't come with the same scrutiny.

Also, why were you complaining about me using NYPD salaries as a basis for comparison when this thread is about the NYPD? It would have been insane to use any other number.

First, there's the general disingenuousness of your statement. People don't normally include all their benefits and overtime when talking about salary. That's like saying a Big 3 line worker makes $85-90k a year, when in reality their 'wage' is around $55k.

Secondly, if you're going to talk about that you also need to talk about the prices of living in New York. The median income in New York is around $54k. The median income in the US is around $42k.

If you want to extrapolate that to overall expenses, it's 28% more expensive in New York than the country average. Oddly enough, police make a median SALARY of $50k. With is BELOW the median salary of cops around country - around $56k according to both Shady and I.

Which actually suggests that New York cops are slightly underpaid. I know that flies in the face of the point you were trying to make, and I understand that the $90k including benefits and overtime seems like a really big number to you - but much to the contrary it's pretty normal.

So let's get past the entire intellectual dishonesty of that issue. 62%? So now you're going to include benefits and overtime in their salary calculation and compare that to the base rate of households? You're intentionally doing this. You've got to be.

But, you're ignoring the point I made before. Do you want to increase the requirements to be a cop? They already can't fill all the positions in many places. Or do you want to decrease the salary? Again - they already can't fill all the position in many places. Increased training? Fine - but that costs money too.

The majority of what I hear and see is name calling and non-constructive whining. Are there problems? Yep. Is there constructive problem solving going on? Not much around here.

 

[Pulsar]

You know, if police were doing a professional job and didn't

There are 461,000 sworn policemen in the United States. Yet you want to paint them with a broad brush. If they were black, what you're doing would be called racism (and would get you kicked out of this forum). If it was against a religion, it'd be discrimination. I could go on, but I doubt you'll concede the point anyway. So let's keep the generalizations going strong. It can do nothing but help the situation.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well this seems so sad to me. eskimo has presented what I would say is a rational case for his position that NYC police acted over defensively to words said by the Mayor, and he did it with a degree of passion and Hay presented a moral case for why the reactions to Police in NYC took an extremist turn, also arguing with passion that such extremism is equivalent to racists charges against the police.

Both of these positions are perfectly logical and rational to me and both are perfectly valid and also, in my opinion, they are perfectly compatible. So where did this train go off the rails, I ask myself. To me what happened is that the argument devolved into whose emphasis, whose passion, was the best. eskimo, I think, sees the enemy as the huge inertia that must be overcome before the police will reform and Hay sees the enemy as the contempt that arises in people who have their goals and and ambitions blocked.

The revolutionary I think believes that hate facilitates change and there can be no doubt that it does. Even the threat of violence is the streets gets politicians in a more conciliatory mood. But the person who has his eye on justice and compassion see revolutionary zeal as just another form of hate, which it can easily become. So one argues the urgency of redress for a long festering situation and one urges caution about the nature of that redress. One feels that what one calls caution really means do nothing and the other that urgency is driven by the insanity of hate. I believe it's the passion one feel for ones moral position that leads to a kind of deafness to the position of others.

I believe that misunderstandings of the kind I think I see here, and this is only my opinion that my version of this misunderstanding is real, can be reduced if one strives to see what sense of morality drives other people's conviction. Everything we do, even the worst of bigots, is done out of a sense that it is right. We all love the good and hate evil.

Metaphysically the world of duality leads to a triad, the affirming, the denying and the reconciling. There is good and evil and a dimension where they cease to exist.

 

[fskimospy]

First, there's the general disingenuousness of your statement. People don't normally include all their benefits and overtime when talking about salary. That's like saying a Big 3 line worker makes $85-90k a year, when in reality their 'wage' is around $55k.

The $90k figure is not counting benefits and overtime. It is counting base salary, longevity pay, uniform allowance, and things like that. It is all money that appears in their paycheck like a normal salary.

You may be unfamiliar with how police pay is structured in NYC, but none of that excuses accusing people who are accounting for it correctly of being liars. Check your facts first.

Secondly, if you're going to talk about that you also need to talk about the prices of living in New York. The median income in New York is around $54k. The median income in the US is around $42k.

If you want to extrapolate that to overall expenses, it's 28% more expensive in New York than the country average. Oddly enough, police make a median SALARY of $50k. With is BELOW the median salary of cops around country - around $56k according to both Shady and I.

This is factually false. Median household income in NYC is approximately $52,000.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3651000.html

The median income for the US as a whole is about $53,000.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36000.html

This is census bureau data.

So not only is the median income in NYC not 28% higher than the US as a whole, it is actually lower. You may have been confusing Manhattan with NYC as a whole, and few cops live in Manhattan. In fact, plenty don't live in the city at all.

Which actually suggests that New York cops are slightly underpaid. I know that flies in the face of the point you were trying to make, and I understand that the $90k including benefits and overtime seems like a really big number to you - but much to the contrary it's pretty normal.

The data from the census bureau would indicate that the opposite of what you were alleging. Can you acknowledge this? I think people who do not live in NYC do not understand how the city actually is.

EDIT: And again, it's important to remember that your previous statement about $90k being inclusive of salary and benefits was wrong.

So let's get past the entire intellectual dishonesty of that issue. 62%? So now you're going to include benefits and overtime in their salary calculation and compare that to the base rate of households? You're intentionally doing this. You've got to be.

No I'm not doing it, you just didn't know what you were talking about. One thing that's important to remember though is that the numbers you are using appear to be household income numbers instead of individual income numbers. And remember, this is for PATROLMEN, not even the higher ranks that people will attain as they spend more time in.

If we are going to talk about purposeful misrepresentation of data the attempt to compare household income to individual income as if they were the same thing might be a good place to start, no?

EDIT 2! Actually to be fair I see earlier you were comparing individual to individual, which is good, so that's wrong on my part. That in no way changes the incorrect cost of living median income adjustments you were trying to do though.

But, you're ignoring the point I made before. Do you want to increase the requirements to be a cop? They already can't fill all the positions in many places. Or do you want to decrease the salary? Again - they already can't fill all the position in many places. Increased training? Fine - but that costs money too.

The majority of what I hear and see is name calling and non-constructive whining. Are there problems? Yep. Is there constructive problem solving going on? Not much around here.

I've already said what I recommend, which is to invest the CCRB with an independent ability to initiate prosecution and disciplinary action against the police.

So before you start trying to call people liars, declare that people are just whining, maybe check your facts.

Speaking of non-constructive whining, that's been my point from the beginning. The cops are whining when they are in fact quite coddled.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If you can't argue against someone's position, desperately search for a way to discount their position by other means. Your irrational hatred of people who criticize the police is its own form of bigotry. It's sad that this bigotry is so ingrained in you that you have an irrational and visceral response to anyone that might be threatening your preferred groups.

Your position here is deeply ironic. In other threads you constantly worry about people you perceive to be in power hurting those less than them. When that injury comes by independent people choosing not to engage with someone economically you freak out. When people are criticizing the police for engaging in actual, physical abuse of power, you jump to the defense of those in power.

You don't really care about power or lack thereof, you care that your favored groups are treated better. Gross.

Well reading Moonbeams post and getting away from the keyboard helped me deal with you. Your complete misrepresentation of all that I have said demonstrates that you are far from one who should throw stones. You see aggregates, you see in very narrow terms where it suits you. Have I said there are not problems with the police? No. I've said the opposite. In fact I've said there are real problems unless "murderers" is something you consider to be mild talk. Yet I don't look at police as some evil people that you clearly hate. You have no empathy for any of them as displayed by your utter contempt. You don't consider those who do right and might be demoralized by these turns of events. Bigot? You define the term. Abuse of power? You've embraced the powerful employer destroying individuals even if they have an irrational dislike of them for no reason as an expression of freedom of speech, selecting the right of one person over that of many. I haven't defended one person in the police who have harmed another. I haven't said that they should be allowed to abuse their authority. None of that. What I have done is stand up for those who have not and no where excused abusers. You won't find it. You however assign them "bad people status" which is precisely what racists do. It doesn't matter what they as individuals are like, it's their box they are put in. All tainted. That is precisely what you have done. You offered no insight, no empathy, no resolution, indeed only displayed contempt even jealous of what they earn. And just when where you beaten? How long did you lie on the sidewalk? When where you threatened with resisting arrest if you complained? But you don't see people. You only care about groups and protect your favorite and broadly accuse those you don't like and you are incapable of understanding people. Don't think so? Find a quote where I said that police who abuse their power should have it ignored. People? Unimportant to you, merely the tags you hang on them. So that's a liberal, eh?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well this seems so sad to me

It is M. If this were just about being upset with a mayor then that would be one thing, however police were executed, and the OP mentions nothing about why feelings are what they are. Criticism applied to how the police as a group is perfectly reasonable. Lack of understanding the context of how people react based on how they are as individuals in a given situation is not. That's what I hate about the "kick them off welfare because they are lazy bums" people. Sometimes there are those who abuse our systems and they ought not to get away with it, however when there is no job to get a job with, then what? Blacks live in inner cities in poor economic and educational situations and that's how it is. So crime and violence born of desperation or frustration or hopelessness is a factor. And those who do harm another are not let off the hook, but an understanding of why a thing happens and that not all qualities of a selected group can be universally applied is necessary. This has not been done. The person, the individual is completely lost in a sea of statistics and prejudice. I simply cannot hate as those people do, and it offends me to the point of frustration to see injustice applied. But I'll have to live with it as there's really no option.

Edit:
One thing more, these people are ultimately destructive. There are systemic problems which do need to be addressed. "Well if they don't like it quit" How does that help? It can't possibly do so because others will join and the cycle continue. Not one thing besides complain about compensation and "quit" It solves nothing, but insight from those who won't relinquish their hate long enough to consider how to constructively change things is less than useless.

 

[fskimospy]

Well reading Moonbeams post and getting away from the keyboard helped me deal with you. Your complete misrepresentation of all that I have said demonstrates that you are far from one who should throw stones.

It is ironic that you would complain about me misrepresenting your arguments and then immediately follow it with a post that does exactly that to me.

You see aggregates, you see in very narrow terms where it suits you. Have I said there are not problems with the police? No. I've said the opposite. In fact I've said there are real problems unless "murderers" is something you consider to be mild talk.

You are 'acknowledging problems' with the police and then saying that people who are pointing out their bad behavior are horrible bigots. It's lip service and nothing more.

Yet I don't look at police as some evil people that you clearly hate. You have no empathy for any of them as displayed by your utter contempt. You don't consider those who do right and might be demoralized by these turns of events.

This is an ignorant and ridiculous claim. I have friends in law enforcement back in California. (lots of ex-military join the cops) I have no personal problem with individual police officers at all. I have a problem with the systemic issues that have been ongoing.

Like I said before, you are attempting to delegitimize people who point out problems with the police by saying they are motivated by irrational hatred. I assume this is because you want to defend the police but can't engage on the merits.

Bigot? You define the term.

Please.

Abuse of power? You've embraced the powerful employer destroying individuals even if they have an irrational dislike of them for no reason as an expression of freedom of speech, selecting the right of one person over that of many.

I haven't defended one person in the police who have harmed another. I haven't said that they should be allowed to abuse their authority. None of that. What I have done is stand up for those who have not and no where excused abusers. You won't find it.

Of course you have. You've deliberately and repeatedly attempted to marginalize people who are attempting to reign in these abuses. It's the standard playbook of 'deal with the few bad apples' instead of addressing the systemic problems. Like I said, you're a big part of the problem. The worst part is that you see this enabling of powerful people to abuse others as something noble instead of something terrible.

You however assign them "bad people status" which is precisely what racists do. It doesn't matter what they as individuals are like, it's their box they are put in. All tainted. That is precisely what you have done.

Straw man. I've done nothing of the sort. You're just repeating the same nonsense. You don't realize that your bigotry is preventing you from seeing that you've boxed all the people who complain about police abuses as Nazis.

You offered no insight, no empathy, no resolution, indeed only displayed contempt even jealous of what they earn.

I am in no way jealous of what they earn, haha. I have also specifically offered a resolution, which you have conveniently ignored because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

It is in fact you that has offered no insight or resolution, just protection of the status quo despite its demonstrated terribleness. You bear some of the responsibility for it continuing, and that's all on your head.

And just when where you beaten? How long did you lie on the sidewalk? When where you threatened with resisting arrest if you complained? But you don't see people. You only care about groups and protect your favorite and broadly accuse those you don't like and you are incapable of understanding people.

I have never had a poor interaction with the police in my life. That doesn't mean I'm incapable of looking at the world as it is.

Don't think so? Find a quote where I said that police who abuse their power should have it ignored. People? Unimportant to you, merely the tags you hang on them. So that's a liberal, eh?

Again, the tired 'few bad apples' argument. I'm a liberal because I reject bigotry and I try to deal with the world as it is. You're just trying to shut down contrary opinions by - as I said - attacking their legitimacy instead of engaging on the merits.

 

[fskimospy]

Edit:
One thing more, these people are ultimately destructive. There are systemic problems which do need to be addressed. "Well if they don't like it quit" How does that help? It can't possibly do so because others will join and the cycle continue. Not one thing besides complain about compensation and "quit" It solves nothing, but insight from those who won't relinquish their hate long enough to consider how to constructively change things is less than useless.

Don't like it? Quit. Is not only a perfectly valid argument, but one that applies to every job.

The police are complaining about people trying to change the system to hold them more accountable. I want as many people as possible to quit if they don't want to be held to account. Not only does that enable actually reforming the system, but it clears out those 'bad apples'.

You need to relinquish your hatred of people who are simply pointing out the problems in the system. You've dug in your heels because your bigotry made you label people who disagreed with you as Nazis and racists and evil people.

Take a step back, re-evaluate what people are actually saying, and engage them.

 

[cubby1223]

Take a step back, re-evaluate what people are actually saying, and engage them.

Difficult to do, isn't it?

Perhaps if you didn't make arrogance such a large part of your conversation, it would be easier to come to mutual understandings.

 

[fskimospy]

Difficult to do, isn't it?

It can be tough for anyone to do. That's why a good start is to not start calling people who disagree with you Nazis and such, because once you do that it's hard to get your head back in a place where you can understand they might have a point.

The discussion here is pretty simple. I think the police are being incredibly thin skinned in this situation. They need to be able to accept criticism, especially after some high profile missteps on their part.

Remember, this entire thing started when de Blasio said his son should take special care when interacting with the police because he is black. Does anyone here really deny this is a good idea? The cops are declaring war on the mayor because he said something that was true but unflattering about them. I would prefer that they changed so that's not true anymore.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Don't like it? Quit. Is not only a perfectly valid argument, but one that applies to every job.

The police are complaining about people trying to change the system to hold them more accountable. I want as many people as possible to quit if they don't want to be held to account. Not only does that enable actually reforming the system, but it clears out those 'bad apples'.

You need to relinquish your hatred of people who are simply pointing out the problems in the system. You've dug in your heels because your bigotry made you label people who disagreed with you as Nazis and racists and evil people.

Take a step back, re-evaluate what people are actually saying, and engage them.

Here I thought the OP was about how police were reacting to what's going on and here it's about the Mayor and police statements.

Then we have your erudite comments of problems within police abuse.

Honestly, is there any group in America that is less able to take criticism?

How the police fall into a swoon immediately upon anyone mentioning the fact that large portions of the communities they ostensibly serve are afraid of being beaten and killed by them is pathetic.

They should take the criticism as a chance to reflect on what might have brought them to this point, not to wallow in self pity about how picked on they are.

But you speak of the tragic shooting in passing and fall back on the mayor and low moral couldn't be possibly related to deaths of fellow officers. They pathetic and fall into a swoon.

And what magic power is it I have to shut down criticism of police abuse? Who did I ban? In fact I did not once object for legitimate complaints. I object to you because on one hand you defend one group, which I assumed was because it's not fair to attribute blanket qualities. When people spoke of blacks stuck I didn't say "well just quit". When there's high crime in an area I didnt say "well that's THOSE people for you". When independent oversight and management coupled with providing help and guidance with the goal of reforming the system was suggested your enlightened response was

Can I also say that if these cops are so sad about their job, so depressed about how horribly treated they are, they are free to quit any time.

Christ on a bike, that's your solution to a real problem which isn't so simply dealt with? But you aren't bigoted. You look at a bad situation, list real problems (like crybabies) come up with rational approaches (fuck you, hit the road) and worry because someone doesn't let you get away with it, which is tantamount to shutting down people who are concerned about genuine abuse.

It wasn't well played on your part.

 

[fskimospy]

Here I thought the OP was about how police were reacting to what's going on and here it's about the Mayor and police statements.

Then we have your erudite comments of problems within police abuse.

Considering the police have repeatedly made that argument themselves, it seems relevant. Unless you know better than the police do?

But you speak of the tragic shooting in passing and fall back on the mayor and low moral couldn't be possibly related to deaths of fellow officers. They pathetic and fall into a swoon.

I've actually spoken repeatedly about how horrible this is in several threads. Do I need to include a disclaimer that I think their senseless killing is terrible in every post I make that criticizes the cops?

This is what I'm talking about, btw. You keep trying to paint other people with this brush where they are senseless cop haters when I probably think it's just as tragic as you do, if not more.

And what magic power is it I have to shut down criticism of police abuse? Who did I ban? In fact I did not once object for legitimate complaints. I object to you because on one hand you defend one group, which I assumed was because it's not fair to attribute blanket qualities. When people spoke of blacks stuck I didn't say "well just quit". When there's high crime in an area I didnt say "well that's THOSE people for you". When independent oversight and management coupled with providing help and guidance with the goal of reforming the system was suggested your enlightened response was

The continued attempt to demonize people who criticize the police is an explicit attempt to shut down debate. Sure you can't ban people, but you're just trying to marginalize opinions that you don't like through ad homenium attacks on those making the arguments.

On what planet would you think that meant 'each and every individual cop' instead of the actions of the entity 'the police' as a whole? There is collective action there that is clearly what I am referring to.

You can't quit being black last time I checked, btw. You can certainly find a better job if your current one makes you sad though, especially now that the economy is improving!

Christ on a bike, that's your solution to a real problem which isn't so simply dealt with? But you aren't bigoted. You look at a bad situation, list real problems (like crybabies) come up with rational approaches (fuck you, hit the road) and worry because someone doesn't let you get away with it, which is tantamount to shutting down people who are concerned about genuine abuse.

It wasn't well played on your part.

Actually I already offered my solution, repeatedly.

That being said, considering the overall criticism of the police has been exceptionally mild considering the circumstances, if someone thinks even such mild criticism is too much then I most certainly wouldn't be sad if they went to find a new job, yes. It is unlikely they will be able to make the necessary reforms.

 

[Dari]

Someone in the other thread mentioned that it was the higher ups that wanted the crackdown on the sale of loosies. It as also higher ups, from the Giluiani era(sic???), that instituted stop-and-frisks in high crime areas. So, we can be tough on the street cops but a lot of these policies are coming from the top brass and they need to be held responsible. They are putting the word out to not be so aggressive anymore but who knows when that'll change (again).

 

[cubby1223]

It can be tough for anyone to do. That's why a good start is to not start calling people who disagree with you Nazis and such, because once you do that it's hard to get your head back in a place where you can understand they might have a point.

The discussion here is pretty simple. I think the police are being incredibly thin skinned in this situation. They need to be able to accept criticism, especially after some high profile missteps on their part.

Remember, this entire thing started when de Blasio said his son should take special care when interacting with the police because he is black. Does anyone here really deny this is a good idea? The cops are declaring war on the mayor because he said something that was true but unflattering about them. I would prefer that they changed so that's not true anymore.

The interesting thing is, you're the only person in this thread to use the word Nazi. Maybe it was said in another thread, I don't know. Unless I'm pointed to it, I'm assuming not. It wouldn't be in Hyabusa's character to use such language.

You're entire tactic to "win" this thread argument is to make up a false image of your opponent then attack that image. It's childish. It is highly disrespectful to many. And it's a complete waste of time.

because once you do that it's hard to get your head back in a place where you can understand they might have a point.

 

[yllus]

Or you could be polite/respectful towards the officer and get a verbal and/or written warning. This has been my experiece 7 times over the last 30 years. Other posters have stated such in here as well.

The problem with being polite and respectful is it's harder to do when you've been stopped ten times in the last year for no reason and forced to show identification and provide justification for being in your own neighbourhood.

Even then, of course, you should try to be polite and respectful, but at a point you're going to feel somewhat upset by the delays. And that's assuming everything goes well and the officer isn't having a bad day and doesn't decide to get a little bit aggressive or violent, or that you're not in a rush to get somewhere, or someone that looks vaguely like you hasn't been reported to have done something in the area recently.

I actually don't have any answers - on the other hand I can see the aggressive interdiction being helpful to clean up an area - but I think a reasonable person can understand why people who continuously get stopped by the police sometimes lose their cool. We're human; that happens. It's the officers who are supposed to be able to deescalate things.

 

[fskimospy]

The interesting thing is, you're the only person in this thread to use the word Nazi. Maybe it was said in another thread, I don't know. Unless I'm pointed to it, I'm assuming not. It wouldn't be in Hyabusa's character to use such language.

You're entire tactic to "win" this thread argument is to make up a false image of your opponent then attack that image. It's childish. It is highly disrespectful to many. And it's a complete waste of time.

I can extend his argument to Jews in Hitler's Germany. They could have converted to another religion. They weren't born a religion, but were raised in a tradition they could have given up. It's their fault because they didn't "quit".

This line of reasoning demeans people and I can't find my way to see it. The abuse of someone because they have the power to do so if it's government or the bully down the street or the employer who doesn't like your hair is wrong. Sometimes things are simple.

Those who seek to do good shouldn't be discarded because of they look or seek to do what is right.

You and I don't ask if it is the Jew or the Samaritan before seeing if the man lying in the road needs help. Clearly this is not a universally shared idea.

If saying 'his reasoning can be extended to the Jews in Germany' isn't calling someone a Nazi, what is?

It's funny that you posted that considering it was his tactic to make a false image of me and then attack that image. I do agree that it is childish and highly disrespectful to many though. I assume you agree.