Dispatch from Police Headquarters

[boomerang]

Nothing has changed about how the police behave legally. In terms of what is a justified self defense and what is not. The only thing that changed is the media race baiting.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! The media and their bias drives the agenda. Our choice is whether to respond or not. And we do have a choice.

 

[fskimospy]

Perhaps they should burn protest and loot like the crybabies in Ferguson? Maybe blacks should see being shot as criticism for their violence and learn to control it? I can often see your point although we often disagree but Mr."hey see what I do next" was not being constructively critical. Personal property being destroyed isn't self pity. You've grouped people in the "bad guy" category. OK as a group blacks shoot more people. Maybe Obama shouldn't look at the lady who was nervous in the elevator as a sign of racism but about how his group created this feeling and not wallow in self pity about how picked on blacks are?

Blue the new Black?

The explicit argument of the police is that when mayor de Blasio said that his son needed to exercise additional caution when interacting with the police, -something that is undeniably true-, that the police felt betrayed and that de Blasio had turned his back on them. Then later when those two cops were murdered they claimed de Blasio had 'blood on his hands' because of the same statement.

The people in ferguson were at least complaining about decades of racial oppression. The NYPD is blubbering about how the mayor said something true about them that made them feel sad. Trying to compare the role of police in their current plight and the plight of black people in the US is ridiculous.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The explicit argument of the police is that when mayor de Blasio said that his son needed to exercise additional caution when interacting with the police, -something that is undeniably true-, that the police felt betrayed and that de Blasio had turned his back on them. Then later when those two cops were murdered they claimed de Blasio had 'blood on his hands' because of the same statement.

The people in ferguson were at least complaining about decades of racial oppression. The NYPD is blubbering about how the mayor said something true about them that made them feel sad. Trying to compare the role of police in their current plight and the plight of black people in the US is ridiculous.

Both are ridiculous or both are not. I can show you ridiculous statements from the main Ferguson thread, but I never said problems of race weren't a concern. There are funerals for targeted officers and of course "blubbering" about the mayor makes the police having low morale crybabies. I'm sure you could be convincing dismissive if you spoke to the families of the dead as to how unimportant they are compared to blacks.

 

[fskimospy]

Both are ridiculous or both are not. I can show you ridiculous statements from the main Ferguson thread, but I never said problems of race weren't a concern. There are funerals for targeted officers and of course "blubbering" about the mayor makes the police having low morale crybabies. I'm sure you could be convincing dismissive if you spoke to the families of the dead as to how unimportant they are compared to blacks.

No one ever said their lives were less important than anyone else's, this is a straw man. The deaths of those two officers was a senseless tragedy.

The complaints of the police here predate these deaths, however. They had already declared war on de Blasio because he had the temerity of criticize their conduct in any way. By the way, this happens with almost every mayor. As soon as they do anything that could be viewed as not entirely supporting the police position the cops go back to the same refrain of how constantly they are picked on. I'm tired of it.

People constantly tell black people about how they need to take some responsibility for their circumstances. They are entirely right to do so. At some point the police need to learn that because of their behavior they bear some responsibility for their circumstances. No one is saying that any cop deserves to be killed, but when they can't even be criticized without flying into a rage? They need to grow up.

 

[Blanky]

As mentioned elsewhere, I've never had a personal problem with police. I also don't support people randomly shooting them. They shouldn't be in fear of their lives while eating lunch.

Their recent murders aside, hopefully if their morale is down for other reasons (community doesn't like them in many cases) it will make them question why this is so.

Too many cops see themselves as soldiers and fighters first. The militarization of police in the US is disgusting. Too many of them are also thugs, break laws with relative impunity, and they know that their brothers in blue won't say a thing about it. They hold themselves to a low standard and habitually get away with criminality in some cases.

If a cop isn't caught breaking a law on video he's more or less golden. And even if it is on video it requires an absurd abuse of the law or preponderance of evidence to get him punished in a way a civilian would.

Police don't see themselves as one of you and me; they are the blue brotherhood and if you're not in it too bad. If one of their own is killed they will happily shut a city down looking for the person. Many (if not most) support laws that dish out worse punishment for killing a cop than a civilian; they see their lives as worth more than yours.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No one ever said their lives were less important than anyone else's, this is a straw man. The deaths of those two officers was a senseless tragedy.

The complaints of the police here predate these deaths, however. They had already declared war on de Blasio because he had the temerity of criticize their conduct in any way. By the way, this happens with almost every mayor. As soon as they do anything that could be viewed as not entirely supporting the police position the cops go back to the same refrain of how constantly they are picked on. I'm tired of it.

People constantly tell black people about how they need to take some responsibility for their circumstances. They are entirely right to do so. At some point the police need to learn that because of their behavior they bear some responsibility for their circumstances. No one is saying that any cop deserves to be killed, but when they can't even be criticized without flying into a rage? They need to grow up.

Your attitude in the post I originally quoted was strikingly similar to complaints regarding blacks. Get a job, stop being violent, stop complaining about people commenting about your own failures. I've noticed that many on the right do just that, but on the left? In this case it's not the right or wrong which matters but what group. Just substitute police for blacks and good to go. Are some complaints whining? Sure, but Wilson was guilty because he was a cop as surely as Brown was, all before there was any forensic evidence revealed. I understand that police have abused their authority, probably more than most here. I also know like other groups, whether by birth or choice, could be demoralized by being portrayed as "the biggest bunch of whiners". If I were a principled officer, or an honest principled black I'd be disheartened by their corresponding uncaring critics. Evidently people are people, left or right.

 

[TreVader]

Your attitude in the post I originally quoted was strikingly similar to complaints regarding blacks. Get a job, stop being violent, stop complaining about people commenting about your own failures. I've noticed that many on the right do just that, but on the left? In this case it's not the right or wrong which matters but what group. Just substitute police for blacks and good to go. Are some complaints whining? Sure, but Wilson was guilty because he was a cop as surely as Brown was, all before there was any forensic evidence revealed. I understand that police have abused their authority, probably more than most here. I also know like other groups, whether by birth or choice, could be demoralized by being portrayed as "the biggest bunch of whiners". If I were a principled officer, or an honest principled black I'd be disheartened by their corresponding uncaring critics. Evidently people are people, left or right.

Repeating the same terrible argument over and over wont make it any more valid a comparison. Cops choose to be cops, and can stop whenever they want. A person's skin color is not the same as their employment!


Do I need to explain further? Are you really that fucking stupid?


And they aren't being "persecuted" at all! All deblasio said was the truth. What scares you so much about the truth?

 

[Pulsar]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! The media and their bias drives the agenda. Our choice is whether to respond or not. And we do have a choice.

Yep. The media needs the narrative, and we have a generation of trained victims in the inner city who have spent the last 20 years growing up in a tribal-hierachy system that trains them to never respect authority.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Yep. The media needs the narrative, and we have a generation of trained victims in the inner city who have spent the last 20 years growing up in a tribal-hierachy system that trains them to never respect authority.

First you can't make a blanket statement like that.....
Second -- so that gives the Police the right to violate whatever right these people may have??

Interesting concept you have....

 

[Moonbeam]

Your attitude in the post ....

I see your discussion with eskimo here indicative of a phenomenon I may have trouble putting into words. I think people are divided along an authoritarian anti authoritarian line. Maybe that's authoritarian libertarian, I don't know but anyway, I think people differ in their reaction to aggression depending on where they are on that spectrum. Authoritarians are more sympathetic to police aggression and the philosophy used to justify it and those with more sympathy for victims of run amok authoritarianism are more sensitive to police abuse.

In talking about the issue under discussion here, whenever anybody makes a statement about it, the statement will fall somewhere on the line or seem to as we read it. eskimo said he was tired of hearing something which means he has a negative attitude toward something, and I think it's that you picked up on. It's what I saw that would explain how you saw his comment as having an attitude anyway. The problem with that of course, and which I think he tried to explain, is that one can have negative reactions to more than one thing.

You are, in my opinion, extremely sensitive to injustice in this world, regardless of who or where its coming from and won't allow a one sided view of it go unchallenged. But I also think that eskimo was doing just the same thing in the other direction.

So I'm thinking between the two of you the platter has been licked clean.


My view is that it is senseless to become tired of police 'reacting like babies' when their modality of behavior is challenged because it is a mechanical reaction they have due to lack of conscious awareness, something that is in rather short supply in our society. You can get very tired of people who snore, if you want to, but you really need to wake them up to get them to stop. Sleeping machines aren't responsible for anything.

The live of unconscious machines we call humanity, in my opinion again, is to flatter our egos because we were made to feel bad. Police perform a valuable service to society. Whenever the ego attaches to something good it creates vanity and the justification for self serving behavior. The good always precedes the application of evil. We only do evil to be good.

This is why, in all the discussions we have, what I look for is the answer to what causes one person to want to be consciously aware of what really is and another to want to deny, or more particularly, whether that is a permanent or malleable condition. Is it possible for an ego to expand is such a was as to see the whole world and everything in it as oneself.

 

[Moonbeam]

Repeating the same terrible argument over and over wont make it any more valid a comparison. Cops choose to be cops, and can stop whenever they want. A person's skin color is not the same as their employment!


Do I need to explain further? Are you really that fucking stupid?


And they aren't being "persecuted" at all! All deblasio said was the truth. What scares you so much about the truth?

You are prepared, I suppose, to meet fearlessly, the person for whom truth is beating you to death.

 

[fskimospy]

Your attitude in the post I originally quoted was strikingly similar to complaints regarding blacks. Get a job, stop being violent, stop complaining about people commenting about your own failures. I've noticed that many on the right do just that, but on the left? In this case it's not the right or wrong which matters but what group. Just substitute police for blacks and good to go. Are some complaints whining? Sure, but Wilson was guilty because he was a cop as surely as Brown was, all before there was any forensic evidence revealed. I understand that police have abused their authority, probably more than most here. I also know like other groups, whether by birth or choice, could be demoralized by being portrayed as "the biggest bunch of whiners". If I were a principled officer, or an honest principled black I'd be disheartened by their corresponding uncaring critics. Evidently people are people, left or right.

They aren't remotely the same. I cannot for the life of me see how you would equate people hired as public employees doing their jobs badly with perceptions of black people in the US.

Cops weren't born cops and don't have to be them. Cops are public employees that a big segment of the public thinks are doing a bad job.

 

[smitbret]

Liberals
oh shut the hell up. There is no self pity - what they are talking about is REAL. This isn't about being "picked on", it's about being targeted by factions that have no sense of reality.

So the roles are reversed? The people they targeted with no sense of reality are now hunting them. Sounds like they are getting what they deserve.

 

[Dari]

Perhaps they should burn protest and loot like the crybabies in Ferguson? Maybe blacks should see being shot as criticism for their violence and learn to control it? I can often see your point although we often disagree but Mr."hey see what I do next" was not being constructively critical. Personal property being destroyed isn't self pity. You've grouped people in the "bad guy" category. OK as a group blacks shoot more people. Maybe Obama shouldn't look at the lady who was nervous in the elevator as a sign of racism but about how his group created this feeling and not wallow in self pity about how picked on blacks are?

Blue the new Black?

You're spewing the same garbage as Svlna and LegendKiller, while ignoring reality. I thought you were better than this.

 

[Moonbeam]

They aren't remotely the same. I cannot for the life of me see how you would equate people hired as public employees doing their jobs badly with perceptions of black people in the US.

Cops weren't born cops and don't have to be them. Cops are public employees that a big segment of the public thinks are doing a bad job.

He can answer for himself when he's back online but what I see him saying is not that cops and blacks aren't the same but that the process of stereotyping them as good or evil is. Police and blacks are people. Police and blacks can be mechanically programmed to act certain ways. It is the program that needs fixing and that doesn't happen by holding the programmed in contempt or by becoming tired of how they act. Those feelings are also mechanical. There is only the seeing of what is. See with compassion. It's what cops and blacks and all of us need. You can knock on the door of truth with logic and reason or grief for the agony of the world but if the door opens, there is only love.

 

[berzerker60]

Police act like they're under some grave threat all the time, despite the fact that they're not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs. Maybe loggers or truck drivers should go around shooting everyone they want without consequences, since they're under ACTUAL threat each day.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/30/law-enforcement-deaths/4247393/

According to the NLEOMF, 111 federal, state, local, tribal and territorial officers were killed in the line of duty nationwide in 2013. This was the fewest for the law enforcement profession since 1959 when 110 officers died. This also represents an 8 per cent drop from 2012, when 121 officers died. ...
The primary cause for officer fatalities this year was traffic-related incidents, which claimed 46 lives.

Firearms-related incidents accounted for 33 deaths, a drop of one-third over 2012 and the lowest since 1887 when 27 officers were shot to death, the NLEOMF reports.

Thirty-two officers died of other causes in 2013, including 14 who suffered heart attacks while on duty.

33 fire-arms related deaths out of ~780,000 officers.

Meanwhile,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/11/police-killings-hundreds/18818663/

Police killings highest in two decades

The number of felony suspects fatally shot by police last year — 461— was the most in two decades, according to a new FBI report. ...

The new 2013 total of justifiable killings represents the third consecutive increase in the annual toll. Criminal justice analysts said the inherent limitations of the database — the killings are self-reported by law enforcement, and not all police agencies participate in the annual counts — continue to frustrate efforts to identify the universe of lethal force incidents involving police.

Per capita, everyday citizens have FAR more to fear from police shooting them than police do from being shot.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I was prepared to allow for more latitude M until this:

They aren't remotely the same. I cannot for the life of me see how you would equate people hired as public employees doing their jobs badly with perceptions of black people in the US.

Cops weren't born cops and don't have to be them. Cops are public employees that a big segment of the public thinks are doing a bad job.

His argument hinges on if one were wronged because they picked a calling or were wronged because they were born a certain way. That if you identify with something strongly if it's race or a calling you are still a person with something that they inherently value. I don't have to agree with a perspective to have empathy with them. Here I see someone saying that "This person has more value than another because they were born rather than choose". Well no that's not true. The things people do and embrace are often an integral part of themselves, and their occupation is an opportunity to express that. Those who seek power over others and abuse it should be prevented from doing so, but tainting the perspective of others against those who are trying to do good? I don't accept line of reasoning than I do that blacks are inherently savages because they commit more shootings than whites. It's more complex that that by far.

I can extend his argument to Jews in Hitler's Germany. They could have converted to another religion. They weren't born a religion, but were raised in a tradition they could have given up. It's their fault because they didn't "quit".

This line of reasoning demeans people and I can't find my way to see it. The abuse of someone because they have the power to do so if it's government or the bully down the street or the employer who doesn't like your hair is wrong. Sometimes things are simple.

Those who seek to do good shouldn't be discarded because of they look or seek to do what is right.

You and I don't ask if it is the Jew or the Samaritan before seeing if the man lying in the road needs help. Clearly this is not a universally shared idea.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You're spewing the same garbage as Svlna and LegendKiller, while ignoring reality. I thought you were better than this.

It wasn't a case of my beliefs, but a statement of irony.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

He can answer for himself when he's back online but what I see him saying is not that cops and blacks aren't the same but that the process of stereotyping them as good or evil is. Police and blacks are people.

Yes!

Police who abuse power should be prevented from doing so, and punished if the situation warrants. Blacks who shoot others should be prevented from doing so and punished as appropriate. Whites, Hindu's, atheists, all have one thing in common here. They can do good or ill. The former should be encouraged and the latter corrected, but I cannot look at these "boxes" and find any of them less human than others.

 

[Knowing]

I have a friend, who, after leaving the military went on to contract for several years in the middle east. He bought a house for himself, a house for his mother, and filled the garages with cars. Driving in SoCal in a mid-high market European sedan he bought with cash he was pulled over for DWB. That being said, he's been shot at less domestically than he was downrange which leads me to believe that there's something more than skin melanin ppm that indicates the differentiating factor between stop and identify and the shooting death of "boys" (who have achieved the age of majority) who were "just getting their lives back together."

Further, it is high time to have a discussion about the role of police and whether they really do need tacticool select fire weapons so that they can be Fudd operators while managing traffic and collecting the king's taxes. (that's not a dig on the president, but rather using subjective criteria to "punish" while having the ridiculous incentive of also linking it to the public budget) This, in a world where the average person is more likely to be killed by the very police who allegedly exist to protect and serve. The itchy trigger fingers for babies and the bedridden really need to be resolved.

Finally, it is entirely legitimate and understandable that the police would feel threatened by the language that people are using particularly since those people don't have a functional understanding of evidence. Logging workers are not targeted by logs that have it out for them, shingles do not post on twitter asserting that they will attack a roofer at random if one more uses staples instead of tacks.

 

[fskimospy]

I was prepared to allow for more latitude M until this:



His argument hinges on if one were wronged because they picked a calling or were wronged because they were born a certain way. That if you identify with something strongly if it's race or a calling you are still a person with something that they inherently value. I don't have to agree with a perspective to have empathy with them. Here I see someone saying that "This person has more value than another because they were born rather than choose". Well no that's not true. The things people do and embrace are often an integral part of themselves, and their occupation is an opportunity to express that. Those who seek power over others and abuse it should be prevented from doing so, but tainting the perspective of others against those who are trying to do good? I don't accept line of reasoning than I do that blacks are inherently savages because they commit more shootings than whites. It's more complex that that by far.

I can extend his argument to Jews in Hitler's Germany. They could have converted to another religion. They weren't born a religion, but were raised in a tradition they could have given up. It's their fault because they didn't "quit".

This line of reasoning demeans people and I can't find my way to see it. The abuse of someone because they have the power to do so if it's government or the bully down the street or the employer who doesn't like your hair is wrong. Sometimes things are simple.

Those who seek to do good shouldn't be discarded because of they look or seek to do what is right.

You and I don't ask if it is the Jew or the Samaritan before seeing if the man lying in the road needs help. Clearly this is not a universally shared idea.

Real quick, before you go all Godwin on a thread you should check your facts. Jews were not targeted by Hitler for their religion, but their race. You could be a completely secular, non-practicing Jew and it didn't matter.

But yes, consequences of your choices are inherently more open to criticism than your innate characteristics.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Jews were not targeted by Hitler for their religion, but their race. You could be a completely secular, non-practicing Jew and it didn't matter.

I wasn't aware you would be immune to persecution if you converted to a practicing Jew when you weren't one before.

But yes, consequences of your choices are inherently more open to criticism than your innate characteristics.

Even if the choices you make are good? No, I don't accept your excuse for bigotry.

 

[Pulsar]

so that gives the Police the right to violate whatever right these people may have??

Interesting concept you have....

You said it. I didn't. Go troll elsewhere.

 

[Darwin333]

Or you could be polite/respectful towards the officer and get a verbal and/or written warning. This has been my experiece 7 times over the last 30 years. Other posters have stated such in here as well.

Maybe in your location but it is quite a well known fact that many municipalities use cops as revenue generators. They have absolutely no reason or motivation to let people go with warnings.

I've lucked out once with a warning but have gotten a BS ticket piled on another time and I am always absolutely polite and respectful to everyone, not just cops, until given reason not to. We have "scam cams" that are proven to make intersections less safe. To top it off, it you just pay the ticket outright, regardless of reasons/actual guilt, it doesn't get reported to your insurance. If you try to fight the ticket and lose it does go against your insurance. It is purely a revenue generating system that has been proven to cause more accidents, often actually reducing the yellow light time (instead of lengthening it like every study says works at reducing accidents but doesn't catch as many people running lights) and they use extortion to get you not to contest it.

In Ferguson court fees and fines are the 2nd largest source of the towns revenue. They can't afford not to ticket people and the way their system is set up creates a literal debtors prison.

 

[bradley]

Police act like they're under some grave threat all the time, despite the fact that they're not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs. Maybe loggers or truck drivers should go around shooting everyone they want without consequences, since they're under ACTUAL threat each day.


Per capita, everyday citizens have FAR more to fear from police shooting them than police do from being shot.

I've posted these stats in regards to police before on this forum. Certainly bares repeating for those making police safety the focal authoritarian state excuse....

Like you said, meanwhile.....

More People in Utah Are Killed by Police Than Die in Gang or Drug Violence
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...nvolved_homicides_common_newspaper_finds.html