Different approaches to a shut down

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snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,289
5,367
146
taj is right, this shutdown is being handled better than Obama's shutdown. Did you all see the pictures posted of Trump hard at work? He was at his desk on his phone, walking outside, and addressing a room full of aides. This is concrete proof that Trump works so much harder than any president before him, especially Obama, which counts as double considering there is now a shutdown.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...to-show-trump-is-working-during-shutdown.html
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
6,784
126
I respect you. In this case it was Chuck Schumer that objected to consent and caused the shutdown. It's the "Schumer Shutdown"
It is this kind of certainty that sparked the invention of straight jackets, I hope you know. You can wish for and believe anything you want, but when republican madness threatens the nation something is going to have to happen to remove that madness from the scene. You can't be permitted to do evil even when you think it is the good. Your way will lead to chaos, destruction, and a massive revolt. History will put you up there with the Nazis, a plague caused by rage induced irrational dementia.

Not your fault though. You were controlled by shame so badly as a child you will not now allow yourself to feel any guilt or shame today.

It is sadly a fact that those who will not feel their pain will make a world in which everybody will feel it. You hurt so bad you want the world to die and you might succeed. Wish I could reach you. I defeated suffering and know it's a dream state. To change the world and make it perfect requires but the throwing of a single switch, but not one within the reach of ego.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I think this shutdown may be unique. Usually, the mainstream media are out front telling Americans that Democrats are bravely defending them against the evil Republicans no matter which party is in power. However, the Democrats now and before are very upfront that this shutdown is over only one thing - protecting illegal aliens. I can’t see how the media can convince Americans that shutting down the federal government over this is actually protecting them.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It is this kind of certainty that sparked the invention of straight jackets, I hope you know. You can wish for and believe anything you want, but when republican madness threatens the nation something is going to have to happen to remove that madness from the scene. You can't be permitted to do evil even when you think it is the good. Your way will lead to chaos, destruction, and a massive revolt. History will put you up there with the Nazis, a plague caused by rage induced irrational dementia.

Not your fault though. You were controlled by shame so badly as a child you will not now allow yourself to feel any guilt or shame today.

It is sadly a fact that those who will not feel their pain will make a world in which everybody will feel it. You hurt so bad you want the world to die and you might succeed. Wish I could reach you. I defeated suffering and know it's a dream state. To change the world and make it perfect requires but the throwing of a single switch, but not one within the reach of ego.
Dang, the shutdown has already cut off Moonie’s meds. ;)
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,255
4,928
136
Lol....facts...loollll. thanks man, needed that
Those pesky alternative facts, you keep washing and rinsing yet they keep coming back...what to do? Just like the Trump inaugural crowd. You know I looked at that for myself using Fox News's own footage keeping the time stamp in mind as I went along. When they realized that the crowd wasn't going to grow they stopped showing footage of it and focused on other areas. An astute viewer would pick up that immediately instead of calling factual reporting fake news.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I think this shutdown may be unique. Usually, the mainstream media are out front telling Americans that Democrats are bravely defending them against the evil Republicans no matter which party is in power. However, the Democrats now and before are very upfront that this shutdown is over only one thing - protecting illegal aliens. I can’t see how the media can convince Americans that shutting down the federal government over this is actually protecting them.

Please. DACA defined the Dreamers as our fellow Americans & now you want to take that away from them. What's right about that?
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Trump is the one that reneged on his promise to support the agreement that the gang of 6 arrived at so keep your facts straight.:D
We can rely on partisans to call it according to their loyalty. You can call it the Trump shutdown, i'll call it the Schumer shutdown.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Please. DACA defined the Dreamers as our fellow Americans & now you want to take that away from them. What's right about that?

It was an unconstitutional action when Obama did it, even he admitted it. You should too. Illegal is illegal is illegal.



https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted


"President Donald Trump has caught a lot of heat for rescinding the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program with a six-month wind-down. Few people seem aware that he's ending an administrative amnesty for illegal aliens that President Barack Obama lacked the constitutional and legal authority to implement.

How do we know? Because even Obama admitted it – repeatedly.

Responding in October 2010 to demands that he implement immigration reforms unilaterally, Obama declared, "I am not king. I can't do these things just by myself." In March 2011, he said that with "respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that's just not the case." In May 2011, he acknowledged that he couldn't "just bypass Congress and change the (immigration) law myself. ... That's not how a democracy works."
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
It was an unconstitutional action when Obama did it, even he admitted it. You should too. Illegal is illegal is illegal.



https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted


"President Donald Trump has caught a lot of heat for rescinding the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program with a six-month wind-down. Few people seem aware that he's ending an administrative amnesty for illegal aliens that President Barack Obama lacked the constitutional and legal authority to implement.

How do we know? Because even Obama admitted it – repeatedly.

Responding in October 2010 to demands that he implement immigration reforms unilaterally, Obama declared, "I am not king. I can't do these things just by myself." In March 2011, he said that with "respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that's just not the case." In May 2011, he acknowledged that he couldn't "just bypass Congress and change the (immigration) law myself. ... That's not how a democracy works."

So Fuck 'Em! Cuz rules is rules & they's brown, anyway. If that weren't the truth of the matter then the Trumpublicans would step up & do the right thing the right way, wouldn't they? Is there something wrong with allowing young adults who were raised American be American?

Not a fucking chance.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,255
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I can hardly wait for today's post meeting Trump fluffers to get before a microphone and continue with their blame game.
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Maybe because i only have your word about it which is worth very little to me.
So in other words you are willing to engage in NO actual basic research on your own and merely are questioning my word for the heck of it. (You have provided zero evidence by the way that things in this area are different this time, especially since it makes sense conservative media would not focus on such a story.)

Here is some general info about contractors and the government.
http://govcon.mofo.com/acquisition-regulations/contractors-should-prepare-for-potential-shutdown/

Basically while it gets a bit complicated, the general key is what are legally considered non-essential services generally get shut down quickly, and temporary civilian contractors to deal with a shortage of chaplains of a particular denomination are particularly impacted. (While there is allot of talk in the link I provided about basically whether the contracting company can get damages from the sudden shutdown, this often does not impact if the individual employees can actually work during this period, or those employees only get paid if the contractor is nice and or they can get reassigned to non-government work, with the contractor paying them to be nice not meaning they can legally act as basically government employees during the shutdown.) If you look at your article, part of the issue was shut down government facilities and bases to the more general public, and legally speaking the priests became unauthorized personnel until the shutdown ended. Notably if you look at the details of the article, the priests were not actually barred from voluntarily ministering to the soldiers if the soldiers went off base, so the prohibition was by no means truly that complete if you really look at how it worked in practice.

Basically the issue is that essential personnel apply to those who are involved in national defense in a very direct way such as all active military members and civilian personnel where the military is going to have functional problems in the short term if they are furloughed and not available. The other exceptions apply to general health and safety or very basic urgent government functions of agencies on even a temporary basis. Contract priests do not fit in the same way, especially since the article you linked to basically indicated that spiritual counselling was in fact still being provided during the furlough especially if someone was feeling suicidal (although they generally are required to take specific steps in that scenario) or otherwise felt the need for counselling. The short version is any regular military chaplain (who by the way is an active member of the US military) is basically required to provide spiritual (and some degree of effective mental) counselling to any member of the military who walks through their office door, they can not be selective based on that soldier's personal religious beliefs and they are expected to provide counselling that can be useful even for a soldier that is a different religion.

Now especially in relation to bigger bases, the military does tend to try to provide chaplains to cover the major faiths of those who are serving at that base to a degree. (With protestant denominations this often ends up only partially covering the variations due to practical limitations of the burden of having too many chaplains at a base, but this means the chaplains are supposed to be broadly accommodating with their religious services for example.) What happened here was a select limited number of Catholic priests were temporary hired to deal with an issue where there were viewed as not enough to fully accommodate all the Catholic soldiers at various bases, but with a shutdown they could not really be justified as being truly essential so they had to be furloughed which legally limited what they could do. (To put things perspective, those in the military with less commonly practiced religions have to deal with the reality that there is no military chaplain who can explicitly really accommodate their particular religious practices most if not all the time.)
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,965
10,491
136
How are we "unsafe" with the dreamers in the country. Are there packs of rabid dreamers running around with pitchforks and machetes killing people that I don't know about. Or is it once they become citizens they will morph into killers werewolf style and run around ravaging people at amusement parks in middle America.

I think we know why Trump & Co and the Republicans don't want the dreamers here. That will be 700,000 or so new citizens that will never vote Republican in its current form.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,759
2,086
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So Fuck 'Em! Cuz rules is rules & they's brown, anyway. If that weren't the truth of the matter then the Trumpublicans would step up & do the right thing the right way, wouldn't they? Is there something wrong with allowing young adults who were raised American be American?

Not a fucking chance.
So you're don't believe in the rule of law when it's inconvenient for your political opinions, yes we got it Jhhnn.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,759
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Aegeon, millions upon millions upon millions of US citizens smoke marijuana which is against federal law, why would it be a big deal if a contract federal employee voluntarily gave mass. Who cares? Not me, only Obama.
Make an issue of it, write your Senator and Congressman. Whoopeee do,

So in other words you are willing to engage in NO actual basic research on your own and merely are questioning my word for the heck of it. (You have provided zero evidence by the way that things in this area are different this time, especially since it makes sense conservative media would not focus on such a story.)

Here is some general info about contractors and the government.
http://govcon.mofo.com/acquisition-regulations/contractors-should-prepare-for-potential-shutdown/

Basically while it gets a bit complicated, the general key is what are legally considered non-essential services generally get shut down quickly, and temporary civilian contractors to deal with a shortage of chaplains of a particular denomination are particularly impacted. (While there is allot of talk in the link I provided about basically whether the contracting company can get damages from the sudden shutdown, this often does not impact if the individual employees can actually work during this period, or those employees only get paid if the contractor is nice and or they can get reassigned to non-government work, with the contractor paying them to be nice not meaning they can legally act as basically government employees during the shutdown.) If you look at your article, part of the issue was shut down government facilities and bases to the more general public, and legally speaking the priests became unauthorized personnel until the shutdown ended. Notably if you look at the details of the article, the priests were not actually barred from voluntarily ministering to the soldiers if the soldiers went off base, so the prohibition was by no means truly that complete if you really look at how it worked in practice.

Basically the issue is that essential personnel apply to those who are involved in national defense in a very direct way such as all active military members and civilian personnel where the military is going to have functional problems in the short term if they are furloughed and not available. The other exceptions apply to general health and safety or very basic urgent government functions of agencies on even a temporary basis. Contract priests do not fit in the same way, especially since the article you linked to basically indicated that spiritual counselling was in fact still being provided during the furlough especially if someone was feeling suicidal (although they generally are required to take specific steps in that scenario) or otherwise felt the need for counselling. The short version is any regular military chaplain (who by the way is an active member of the US military) is basically required to provide spiritual (and some degree of effective mental) counselling to any member of the military who walks through their office door, they can not be selective based on that soldier's personal religious beliefs and they are expected to provide counselling that can be useful even for a soldier that is a different religion.

Now especially in relation to bigger bases, the military does tend to try to provide chaplains to cover the major faiths of those who are serving at that base to a degree. (With protestant denominations this often ends up only partially covering the variations due to practical limitations of the burden of having too many chaplains at a base, but this means the chaplains are supposed to be broadly accommodating with their religious services for example.) What happened here was a select limited number of Catholic priests were temporary hired to deal with an issue where there were viewed as not enough to fully accommodate all the Catholic soldiers at various bases, but with a shutdown they could not really be justified as being truly essential so they had to be furloughed which legally limited what they could do. (To put things perspective, those in the military with less commonly practiced religions have to deal with the reality that there is no military chaplain who can explicitly really accommodate their particular religious practices most if not all the time.)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
6,784
126
We can rely on partisans to call it according to their loyalty. You can call it the Trump shutdown, i'll call it the Schumer shutdown.
This fact has been scientifically studied and verified to happen to both some liberals and some conservatives and additionally proven that conservatives do it in greater numbers than liberals do. The evidence is scientifically compelling because there are measurable brain differences in exactly the areas of the brain that are known to be involved in such things. People who self profess to be conservative, for example, have a larger part of the amygdala that involves the activation of fear and self confessed liberals have a larger portion of the brain that suppresses fear when making logical decisions. Science, at least does not support your side in this. The problem, of course, is that unlike myself, many people have an unconscious bigotry against being irrational. I, myself, wouldn't trade my irrationality for the world. Who wants to take all day figuring things our when you can know the truth instantly. You seem to devote a great deal of effort to appear sane. That says to me your fighting something you already feel.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,759
2,086
136
This fact has been scientifically studied and verified to happen to both some liberals and some conservatives and additionally proven that conservatives do it in greater numbers than liberals do. The evidence is scientifically compelling because there are measurable brain differences in exactly the areas of the brain that are known to be involved in such things. People who self profess to be conservative, for example, have a larger part of the amygdala that involves the activation of fear and self confessed liberals have a larger portion of the brain that suppresses fear when making logical decisions. Science, at least does not support your side in this. The problem, of course, is that unlike myself, many people have an unconscious bigotry against being irrational. I, myself, wouldn't trade my irrationality for the world. Who wants to take all day figuring things our when you can know the truth instantly. You seem to devote a great deal of effort to appear sane. That says to me your fighting something you already feel.
Yes, we know you like Chris Mooney. Moonie
https://www.amazon.com/Republican-Brain-Science-Science-Reality/dp/1118094514
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Aegeon, millions upon millions upon millions of US citizens smoke marijuana which is against federal law, why would it be a big deal if a contract federal employee voluntarily gave mass. Who cares? Not me, only Obama.
Make an issue of it, write your Senator and Congressman. Whoopeee do,
Uh, obviously the US government basically mostly applies the law basically equally to both situations if you actually really look at the facts, and this included the Obama administration.

Members of the military are still not allowed to smoke Marijuana, and people can continue to be arrested for smoking marijuana if they do so on a Federal National Park for example even in states where it is legal. (The main difference is up to now the Federal government has basically avoided spending resources to crack down on businesses selling recreational or medical marijuana and long as they are not causing any notable unusual issues, which is not that unheard of in terms of the federal government prioritizing enforcement.) There was nothing in the article suggesting the priests would have been jailed for life or something if they had violated the law. (By contrast some people arrested and charged for smoking marijuana in National Parks did not even realize they were violating the law if the state had legalized it.)

You are saying you do not care when a Presidential administration blatantly breaks the Anti-deficiency Act which was passed by Congress in the first place. (Notably since the Republicans have controlled Congress for awhile they could seek to change the law if they wanted to, but to my knowledge they have not attempted to do so.) As noted the Obama Administration did not in fact actually truly actually prevent the priests from voluntarily giving mass if you looked at the details of the article in question.

It certainly appears you are incredibly selective about when you care about the President enforcing or attempting to be selective in their enforcement of US laws and your motivation with regards to Dreamers is something other than merely just enforcing the law.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,759
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Uh, obviously the US government basically applies the law basically equally to both situations if you actually really look at the facts, and this included the Obama administration. Selective? Hell yes, you're the one supporting hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens and hold them above the law.

Members of the military are still not allowed to smoke Marijuana, and people can continue to be arrested for smoking marijuana if they do so on a Federal National Park for example even in states where it is legal. (The main difference is up to now the Federal government has basically avoided spending resources to crack down on businesses selling recreational or medical marijuana and long as they are not causing any notable unusual issues, which is not that unheard of in terms of the federal government prioritizing enforcement.)

You are saying you do not care when a Presidential administration blatantly breaks the Anti-deficiency Act which was passed by Congress in the first place. (Notably since the Republicans have controlled Congress for awhile they could seek to change the law if they wanted to, but to my knowledge they have not attempted to do so.) As noted the Obama Administration did not in fact actually truly actually prevent the priests from voluntarily giving mass if you looked at the details of the article in question.

It certainly appears you are incredibly selective about when you care about the President enforcing or attempting to be selective in their enforcement of US laws and your motivation with regards to Dreamers is something other than merely just enforcing the law.
I'm saying it won't happen. Who would be a big enough idiot to charge a priest with giving mass when the priest is a contract employee? No one, the only difference is the Obama Administration made a big deal about it in his 2013 shutdown. Selective? Hell yes, you're the one who's supporting the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, not me.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
136
Calling this the "Schumer Shutdown" makes absolutely no sense AND by the way is an impossible term to apply.
One must remember that...
#1. Schumer IS NOT the president.
#2. Schumer is not part of any majority and thus incapable of shutting down anything.
#3. Donald Trump is the acting president and republicans are in fact in complete control of all branches of government.
Republicans in congress hold all the cards.
And one would need to be completely deaf and blind no to realize republicans in congress, Donald Trump, and 100% of "his" base are quite enjoying this shutdown.
Schumer has no control.
Republicans hold all the control and everyone knows quite well how republicans feel about the government. Just dig up Ronald Reagan and ask Ronnie if you need any proof of that.

Labeling this as some Schumer Shutdown should give Mr Schumer a lot of pride considering Mr Schumer lacks any power or influence to do so.
Pretending that little inconsequential Mr Schumer could cause all of this or could bring the government to a halt would be like labeling Donald Trump as a genius.
Both Chuck and Donald would be quite proud if they indeed earned and justified the label,
but we all know none of which are true....
Chuck Schumer is totally powerless, and Donald Trump is an absolute idiot.
And instructing old Mitch McConnell and Fox News to continually repeat otherwise does not make it true.

Only republicans, Donald Trump, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell could end this shutdown today, if...... they really wanted to. Which obviously and quite clearly none of them have any desire in doing.
For them it is so much more fun to pretend black is white, point fingers, make idiotic speeches and tweets into the air, sit back and enjoy the chaos.
And if anyone out there enjoys lots and lots of chaos, it certainly is Donald Trump.
I mean really..... lets get truthful about this. Everyone knows exactly what is going on.
 
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Nov 25, 2013
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(translation) Hail Trump!

btw, if it had been the Gestapo, they would have been dead or in a concentration camp.

From the Obama shutdown in 2013 :

'Gestapo' tactics meet senior citizens at Yellowstone

"
NEWBURYPORT — Pat Vaillancourt went on a trip last week that was intended to showcase some of America’s greatest treasures.

Instead, the Salisbury resident said she and others on her tour bus witnessed an ugly spectacle that made her embarrassed, angry and heartbroken for her country.

Vaillancourt was one of thousands of people who found themselves in a national park as the federal government shutdown went into effect on Oct. 1. For many hours her tour group, which included senior citizen visitors from Japan, Australia, Canada and the United States, were locked in a Yellowstone National Park hotel under armed guard.



The tourists were treated harshly by armed park employees, she said, so much so that some of the foreign tourists with limited English skills thought they were under arrest.

When finally allowed to leave, the bus was not allowed to halt at all along the 2.5-hour trip out of the park, not even to stop at private bathrooms that were open along the route.

“We’ve become a country of fear, guns and control,” said Vaillancourt, who grew up in Lawrence. “It was like they brought out the armed forces. Nobody was saying, ‘we’re sorry,’ it was all like — ” as she clenched her fist and banged it against her forearm.

Vaillancourt took part in a nine-day tour of western parks and sites along with about four dozen senior citizen tourists. One of the highlights of the tour was to be Yellowstone, where they arrived just as the shutdown went into effect.

Rangers systematically sent visitors out of the park, though some groups that had hotel reservations — such as Vaillancourt’s — were allowed to stay for two days. Those two days started out on a sour note, she said." ...........

http://www.newburyportnews.com/news...cle_bd36efd7-2593-50d8-b413-bfb888a40038.html

 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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(translation) Hail Trump!

Yet another beauty from President Obama during his 2013 government shutdown.

NBC: Police Remove Vietnam War Veterans at Memorial Wall

"Via William Jacobson, NBC's affiliate in Washington, D.C. reports that police ordered tourists and Vietnam war veterans who were visiting the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall to leave the memorial at one point on Friday.

After one group of veterans went around the barricade, "the park ranger told them the wall was closed," NBC's Mark Seagraves reported. "Later another group of vets showed up and moved the barricades. At that point, the memorial filled with vets and tourists. That's when police came and moved everyone out."

The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall is a black granite outdoor wall on which the names of the 58,272 service members who died or were unaccounted for during the Vietnam war are inscribed.

It takes more manpower and costs the government more money to close down an outdoor wall than to let people walk past it and pay their respects." ............................

Ahhh another fond memory of that douchebag Obama and his lovely shenanigans. Closing down the veterans monuments to show his hate and anger and contempt and disdain to the American people.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/nbc-police-remove-vietnam-war-veterans-memorial-wall/article/759267
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
6,784
126
Actually I also like Johnathan Haidt also whose brain studies caused him to appreciate conservatives much more than he had. I learned al lot from him I think a lot of which went against the grain. We liberals, however, work hard not to let our bias for one scientist over another based the biases we bring to the table affect our judgement in studying new work. It's a liberal thing to seek accurate scientifically peer reviewed data. You have to know that conservative thinking on things like climate science, threaten life on the planet and that I have a moral imperative to do something about it where I can. For me that is completely separate from my party affiliation, something I don't really have much of in the first place. I vote liberal mostly because of the alternative.

Politics is the art of the possible and there are few if any politicians who see the possibilities I see, in my opinion.