Did you discover your atheism for yourself?

[Thorn]

<< &quot;I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.&quot;
..........Galileo Galilei


I bet that was pretty blasphemous back when he said it. >>


Yes it was, and he was executed for it (beheaded). That really bothers me too... he's one of my favorite philosophers.

 

[BoberFett]

Zucchini

And you're missing my point. There is no Christian God. There is no Muslim God. There is no God that belongs to a particular religion. If God exists, he is God whether or not any given religion has a correct interpretation of his existance. So often I see that argument that &quot;if God is for real, why are there so many religions, and which one is right?&quot; Perhaps I'm reading your posts the wrong way, but that's the reasoning I see you and many others using. I'm amazed at how many otherwise intelligent people use that line of thinking.

 

[FettsBabe]

Smiz -

1. None really. I went when I was young 2-3, and then again (forced to go) when I turned 14-15. I hated it too. I only now came around to the belief in God. My parents didn't call me and bager me. Its something I realized on my own.

2. I was born in Jacksonville Florida.

3. My parents are Pentecostal Holliness, and I am Methodist. I chose Methodist because I support their views.

4. Nope, because only you and God are in the relationship. Others Need Not Apply!!!

 

[BoberFett]

<< kill everyone not like us!!! >>

Wrong again. You're making things up. According to the old testament, there were laws set forth by God. When those laws were broken, punishment awaited. It's no different than breaking the laws set forth by man.

I have yet to read anything in the bible that instructed people to kill anybody who is different. But I see you find arguing with people is too difficult. It really is much easier to knock down Straw Men.

 

[Zucchini]

Bobberfett,

Your forgetting that organized religions don't stop at just believing god exists. They then take the leap and explain how he is, what he believes, and all sorts of creative things. so yes, there is a christian god, a muslim god, etc.. they might all point to the same god(ignoring polythiesm), but that just shows that many must be wrong in their interpretation.

 

[FettsBabe]

There is only one God. There are just many different people interpreting the Word (Bible).

 

[Zucchini]

but not all religions are based on the bible.

 

[MisFit]

!!How much bearing did your upbringing have on your current religious beliefs? Was who you were born to or what part of the world you were born in a major factor regarding the God you believe in? Have you ever truly considered converting to another religion? Do you believe that you would have the same beliefs if you were born on the opposite side of the world?!!


I was born into a family who did not believe in God or follow any spiritual teaching, my best friend was a church goer and I used to go to church with them. Even at an early age the contradictions that I saw in the way many of these people lived their lives was enough to sour me. I stopped going after I turned 15. For the next few years I experimented with various religions, JW's, Bahai' (excuse sp.) and so on. With each one I became more disillusioned until I realized that my search for &quot;God&quot; was in no way bound to religion. The two were separate. My beliefs tend to be based in a mix of Spiritualism and Karma, so according to many religions I DON'T believe in God, but I think the higher spiritual entity knows better.

 

[FettsBabe]

Most religions are based on the bible. There are people who worship satan, etc. but thats not what we are talking about here. The organized religions you are referring to do worship &quot;our&quot; God and are based on the Bible.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< ...., all I know is I didn't have to learn to be an Atheist. I'm just this way cause I only believe in Sense and Reason... >>



Do you believe in Love?

 

[SmiZ]

Bobber:

By killing people I am refering to the Old Testament describing God being on the side of the likes of Joshua, David, Moses, etc. as they destroyed cities, killed giants, and dropped ocean like waves on pursuers (sp?). All of which read more like Grim's Fairy tales than a historical journal.

 

[Zucchini]

World religion breakdown, just for kicks

 

[Athanasius]

Zucchini:

You have a point about, at least in human perspective, the conflict of the &quot;christian&quot; versus the &quot;hindu,&quot; etc.

But I think it is a &quot;form&quot; versus &quot;function&quot; thing. Many atheists say that &quot;shame&quot; is the result of societal or religious pressure and that &quot;mystery&quot; is a result of man's attempts to explain the unknown. I see it differently. I see societal and religious pressure as weak, man-made attmepts to deal with shame and mystery. In some cases, it is also a convenient mode of scapegoating in order to avoid dealing with my own shame.

That doesn't mean that God delights in guilt trips. &quot;He will not accuse forever.&quot; (Psalm 103). It just means that there is a core issue that mankind must deal with.

The shame is there. Animals don't really feel shame (as far as we can tell). The mystery is also there. Animals don't seem to gaze up into the heavens and wonder (as far as we can tell).

Either the Shame and the Mystery are particular defects of our species, or they are insights reflective of a higher state of consciousness, however convoluted and chaotic that higher state might currently be (as evidenced by the existence of so many religions).

Since the Shame and the Mystery happen to exist in the same species (that we can scientifically observe) that also has attained the highest level of consciousness, I see them as part and parcel of that higher consciousness.

Hence, man is both more angelic and more demonic than the animals. His good acts are higher, not just by degree, but in kind. His bad acts are worse, not just in degree, but in kind.

Man will never succeed in being just a physical creature. We can't turn back the clock. Obviously, that is just my opinion.

 

[Zucchini]

Smiz,

yes, apparently the word was a political tool in its time. It was bent and revised to give the followers hope when necessary. Best not to take it literally.

 

[MisFit]

This question is directed at no one in particular but to everyone in general, does the need to constantly sway the population at large to your way of thinking stem from the fact that you don't find the peace from your beliefs that you say do, or are you constantly trying to reinforce to yourself that was you believe is true?

 

[BoberFett]

Zucchini

I won't argue with you there. I'm anti-religion myself. When talking about God and my relationship to God and the universe in general, I prefer the term spiritual to religious. To me, spiritual keeps it personal where the term religious makes it public. Determining my place in the universe is my business and nobody elses.

 

[BoberFett]

SmiZ

I think if you read those stories though, where God assisted in the destruction of cities and civilizations, you'll find that they were guilty of breaking God's laws and the Jews or whoever was the destroyer was just God's method of punishment.

I'm not defending Christianity here, just trying to keep the argument on level ground.

 

[Zucchini]

athan

The shame is there. Animals don't really feel shame (as far as we can tell). The mystery is also there. Animals don't seem to gaze up into the heavens and wonder (as far as we can tell).

Actually biologists are already showing how this is wrong in behavioral studies on primates. These studies are showing more higher level thought functions then we've ever thought capable because we're ussually too busy thinking that we are above animals. I'm pretty sure they've shown shame is part of more then just human experience. I'm sure you know of coco the gorilla for an example. Its somewhat disturbing to find out we're not all that special. Well obviously we are special, just not as far removed as we'd like to think

Hence, man is both more angelic and more demonic than the animals. His good acts are higher, not just by degree, but in kind. His bad acts are worse, not just in degree, but in kind.

Very true in regards to intelligence. In animals, intelligence seems linked to the level of cruelty possible. Chimps have their little wars, baby killings, dolphins kidnap females and take turns raping them.. then again, still not as far removed as we'd like to think

 

[SmiZ]

<< Best not to take it literally >>




That's what scares me. The bible has been used to justify everything from slavery and beating your wife to genocide. Religion is most dangerous when people stop thinkin for themselves.

 

[Eug]

<< Most religions are based on the bible. >>

Uhh... No, most are not actually. It is also interesting to note that the four original Western religions did not include Christianity.

I don't happen to believe in it, and I find it irritating when people think they must &quot;save&quot; me. I'd rather go read a technical manual on the Pentium IV than read the Bible. And I read about 1/3rd of the Bible as a kid. It was somewhat interesting, but that's about it, and I don't remember much because quite frankly I thought I had better things to do with my time. The more I read, the more I realized this stuff was too strange for my tastes, except as a historical piece of literature. By the way, my family was not religious, but I wouldn't call them atheist either. Probably some are agnostic while some are not. My extended family are practicing buddhists. (Well, sorta. Not really buddhism but buddhism mixed with a whole bunch of other stuff.)

Sure, atheists can be smug and irritating, but so can theists.

So.... &quot;Did you discover your atheism for yourself?&quot;

I would have to say yes. I feel it is far too convenient to fully believe in one's own organized religion. Too neat and tidy for a supposed higher being to &quot;authorize&quot;. If one is to believe, I would think that BoberFett's approach is the most logical. However, I do not believe at all and never will. I don't think I could date a religious person either, but an agnostic would be OK for me.

 

[Zucchini]

Athanasius,

the movie se7en just popped into my head. The seven cardinal sins are lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, envy, pride and wrath. Animals(atleast primates that we are sure of) can commit some if not all of these. Not just through instinct, but totally conscious of their actions.. scary. I see hellbound monkeys

Lordmaul,

I guess you have no valid arguements to make right? Best not to question your beliefs, foundations must be shaky. God gave you a brain, it would be a shame to use it.

 

[Athanasius]

Zucchini:

No, I have very little problem realizing that I am not all that special, or that our species is not all that special. The primacy of man as a physical species certainly earns no special merit for mankind. We had nothing to do with it and have often used our position in ways that are much more &quot;demonic&quot; than &quot;angelic&quot;.

I am glad that you mentioned Koko the gorilla. Studies with the higher apes is something that I have been fascinated by, and actually done some independent reading on. It is interesting to see what the higher apes can and cannot do. They demonstrate no ability to enter the realm of abstract thought. Moral responsibility as humans depends on this abstract capability. It is also of some interest to me that virtually everyone overlooks the obvious in our studies of higher primates. So much of what they seem to do in terms of shame, language, mystery, and the higher complex consciousness that is universal to humans is very simplistic and comes only after extended contact with a higher consciousness, namely humans.

So, what higher consciousness have humans come into contact with that enables us to have such a finely developed sense of these things, at least compared to every other species that we can observe?

Biologists are by no means showing that this uniqueness of abstract representations to the human species is wrong. I would reference you to some of Noam Chomsky's works to drive home this point. BTW, Chomsky is an agnostic. There is tremendous debate on the issue. Atheistic biologists overlook the effect of human influence on the apes and &quot;theistic&quot; biologists see the gaps as immense and uncrossable without some higher consciousness guiding the process.

The debate in biology only underscores Rio's main point.

 

[Athanasius]

Zucchini:

I just saw your last post. LOL. Yes, the monkeys from hell will rule! Beware the monkey demon

 

[Isla]

Hmmm, this thread is dangerous territory....

I had a very serious, long term relationship with an atheist. He would mockingly call me a theist, and I would take great pleasure in shocking him with the occasional mystical occurances that happen when one spends enough time hanging around me. I am a magnet for the strange and unexplainable. He would always try to explain things away scientifically but never really to his satisfaction. I could have adopted his beliefs, but he could never convince me any more than I could convince him. It was an argument we agreed to disagree on. There is no reason why atheists/non-atheists can't get along... it's just a matter of respecting each other. However, I will say that when he was 22 an his dad died of lymphatic cancer, it was my spiritual strength based on faith that helped him get through it. I didn't rub it in, though.

Anyway, I spent a good deal of time reading about the religions of the world, studying sociology, and considering what all people/cultures have in common.

In most cases, you can find the archetypical counterparts in all mythologies/religions... There is more than one Jesus-type, more than one Mary-type, so on and so forth.

However, this information made me even more sure of my faith in what we call &quot;God&quot; instead of less! The whole idea of &quot;He meets you where you are&quot; seems to be illustrated by the fact that all over the world, the names may be different but the stories are the same. I think that this is incredibly exciting!

I know that many people come to the opposite conclusion after studying world mythology, sociology, etc. Instead, I saw God as the thread that connects us all. The common bond we have a hard time seeing because we call it different things.

I call myself a &quot;follower of Christ&quot; and I do my best to consider Him in all things but I do not necessarily call myself a Christian because I have a few radical notions that don't line up well with mainstream Christian beliefs. However, that doesn't mean I don't repect them... it's just that I don't want the label of Heretic.

edit: There may be a church or specific religion out there for me, but like the Bee Girl in the Blind Melon &quot;No Rain&quot; video, I haven't found the field of freaks like me yet.

 

[toph99]

If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him. -Voltaire

i am agnostic, and i found it myself