Did Christ commit suicide?

[Pepsei]

how about those suicide by cop?

the guy didn't want to kill himself so he waves his gun at cops to have them shoot him. is that suicide?

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: thirtythree
death is the separation of the body and soul I thought.

Yeah but the seperation isn't permanent either. Suicide is an event where you purposefully cause this seperation. However, Jesus did nothing to cause harm to himself. Inaction != action. Suicide = action.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Pepsei
how about those suicide by cop?

the guy didn't want to kill himself so he waves his gun at cops to have them shoot him. is that suicide?

That's the whole jumping in front of a train thing all over again.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: Pepsei
how about those suicide by cop?

the guy didn't want to kill himself so he waves his gun at cops to have them shoot him. is that suicide?

No. Just another poor analogy. (Actually, I'd be tempted to answer yes.)

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: thirtythree
death is the separation of the body and soul I thought.

Yeah but the seperation isn't permanent either. Suicide is an event where you purposefully cause this seperation. However, Jesus did nothing to cause harm to himself. Inaction != action. Suicide = action.

Err, I think you lost track of the conversation somewhere:

Originally posted by: Malak
If we go the route of him giving up the ghost voluntarily, then we end up in a whole nother conversation entirely. Being an eternal being, he doesn't really die, so technically he is still alive and thus this is all moot.

 

[mundane]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz
Firefighters, policemen, military personel, etc all commit suicide daily by willingly putting themselves into mortal danger. I fail to see any flaw in this logic.

They don't plan to die, purposefully not go on living, or cause themselves to die. They don't commit suicide...

They put themselves into a situation where they are facing the threat of death. In some situations, they know they will die, but still do their duty.

Like an above poster said, sacrifice isn't the same as suicide.

See my post two up from yours, silly bear. If they've (here's my try at an analogy) done their duty and have no further need to endure pain but instead, by their own power, grab a piece of glass and slit their lists, it's a suicide.

But, IIRC his duty was to die. Or are you saying that after receiving the spear in his side, after being hung on the cross, he lost the will to live and committed suicide?

 

[DAGTA]

I guess we all commit suicide then since we all know that living will eventually lead to death and we all are living.

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Adam and Eve wouldn't have disobeyed God if God hadn't created them, so it was his fault they sinned, and thus his fault he died.

By this form of logic, everything you do is your parents' fault, which really makes it their parents' fault, and so on back to the first living person and then up to God... so you're saying everything is God's fault and no one has any choice in the matter.

 

[DAGTA]

Jesus' death was a sacrifice. He didn't want to do it. In fact, he prayed asking that it could be taken away from him but that he would submit to God's will if this was the way it had to be. Jesus did not kill himself. Men chose to beat him and crucify him. He was murdered. He knew it would happen, and he didn't want to go through it, but he knew it was the way to save humanity. He made himself the ultimate sacrifice for all of mankind.

It is my opinion that a sacrifice is distinctly different than suicide.

 

[dxkj]

If I knock someone from out in front of a car and get hit, saving their life, is that suicide?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: thirtythree
He chose to die on the cross and, in theory, could've stopped it from happening. He even said "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" before "giving up the ghost," no? I was raised LDS, and thus consider God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to be separate entities (if I consider them at all, that is), but don't most religions believe that they are one? I mean, either Jesus or God must have made Jesus die, or was it just a coincidence that it happened right after he said that?

I'm not sure you're going to find a real answer to this question because it's really based on personal belief. It all really just depends on you own personal definition of suicide and of how/why Christ actually died.

On a side note, are you still LDS? I am, so I was just wondering.

 

[Schfifty Five]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Malak
I think you are missing what I'm trying to explain.

He didn't design it. He didn't commit it. He didn't do ANYTHING to explicitly cause it. Someone else arrested him, someone else tortured him, and someone else killed him. It required nothing from him. This happens every day, it isn't considered suicide in any society. The ability to stop it doesn't make it suicide.

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Plus could physical pain really kill him? I thought he endured even worse pain in the garden of whatcha-ma-jingle where he bled from every pore and such. Other religions believe in that, right? Plus, as mentioned in my original post, it seemed like he CHOSE to "give up the ghost."

Or do you believe it really was the torture that killed him?

Jesus was both man and God. God sent His son down to earth as a man and was also given the same feelings as you and I. Yes he felt pain and yes he could die from bodily harm.

 

[sandmanwake]

Originally posted by: Schfifty Five

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Malak
I think you are missing what I'm trying to explain.

He didn't design it. He didn't commit it. He didn't do ANYTHING to explicitly cause it. Someone else arrested him, someone else tortured him, and someone else killed him. It required nothing from him. This happens every day, it isn't considered suicide in any society. The ability to stop it doesn't make it suicide.

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Plus could physical pain really kill him? I thought he endured even worse pain in the garden of whatcha-ma-jingle where he bled from every pore and such. Other religions believe in that, right? Plus, as mentioned in my original post, it seemed like he CHOSE to "give up the ghost."

Or do you believe it really was the torture that killed him?

Jesus was both man and God. God sent His son down to earth as a man and was also given the same feelings as you and I. Yes he felt pain and yes he could die from bodily harm.

Is it just me or does anyone else have a hard time trusting a guy who sends his only son to die?

 

[AreaCode707]

If a dad swims out into a rip tide to save his child, the child lives and the dad dies, is that suicide?

If you say yes to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is yes.

If you say no to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is no. I would say no.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: HotChic
If a dad swims out into a rip tide to save his child, the child lives and the dad dies, is that suicide?

If you say yes to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is yes.

If you say no to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is no. I would say no.

We can't just change the definition of things. People's beliefs don't change truth.

 

[OdiN]

Katana!

 

[arcenite]

Last time I checked it's pretty difficult to crucify yourself.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: sandmanwake

Originally posted by: Schfifty Five

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Malak
I think you are missing what I'm trying to explain.

He didn't design it. He didn't commit it. He didn't do ANYTHING to explicitly cause it. Someone else arrested him, someone else tortured him, and someone else killed him. It required nothing from him. This happens every day, it isn't considered suicide in any society. The ability to stop it doesn't make it suicide.

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Plus could physical pain really kill him? I thought he endured even worse pain in the garden of whatcha-ma-jingle where he bled from every pore and such. Other religions believe in that, right? Plus, as mentioned in my original post, it seemed like he CHOSE to "give up the ghost."

Or do you believe it really was the torture that killed him?

Jesus was both man and God. God sent His son down to earth as a man and was also given the same feelings as you and I. Yes he felt pain and yes he could die from bodily harm.

Is it just me or does anyone else have a hard time trusting a guy who sends his only son to die?

Not if his only reason is because he loves me and everyone on earth

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Adam and Eve wouldn't have disobeyed God if God hadn't created them, so it was his fault they sinned, and thus his fault he died.

By this form of logic, everything you do is your parents' fault, which really makes it their parents' fault, and so on back to the first living person and then up to God... so you're saying everything is God's fault and no one has any choice in the matter.

god makes humans and gives free will (choice to do good or evil)

humans choose evil, fubar ourselves.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: HotChic
If a dad swims out into a rip tide to save his child, the child lives and the dad dies, is that suicide?

If you say yes to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is yes.

If you say no to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is no. I would say no.

We can't just change the definition of things. People's beliefs don't change truth.

What is truth, Pilate? 😉

We can't just change the definitions of things, but neither is there anybody who is going to be able to step in here and establish a definition of suicide that we all agree with. My goal was to put a spin on the question by using an appropriate parallel that would allow the OP to think about the situation in a non-diety fashion.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: diegoalcatraz
Firefighters, policemen, military personel, etc all commit suicide daily by willingly putting themselves into mortal danger. I fail to see any flaw in this logic.

They don't plan to die, purposefully not go on living, or cause themselves to die. They don't commit suicide...

They put themselves into a situation where they are facing the threat of death. In some situations, they know they will die, but still do their duty.

Like an above poster said, sacrifice isn't the same as suicide.

See my post two up from yours, silly bear. If they've (here's my try at an analogy) done their duty and have no further need to endure pain but instead, by their own power, grab a piece of glass and slit their lists, it's a suicide.

But, IIRC his duty was to die. Or are you saying that after receiving the spear in his side, after being hung on the cross, he lost the will to live and committed suicide?

No, I'm not saying that. Perhaps his duty was to die, but I was under the impression that there was more to it than that. The death brought an end to his suffering, which was his "duty."

Originally posted by: DAGTA
I guess we all commit suicide then since we all know that living will eventually lead to death and we all are living.

I believe I've addressed this. See my posts in response to the train, rescue workers, and other "analogies."

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Adam and Eve wouldn't have disobeyed God if God hadn't created them, so it was his fault they sinned, and thus his fault he died.

By this form of logic, everything you do is your parents' fault, which really makes it their parents' fault, and so on back to the first living person and then up to God... so you're saying everything is God's fault and no one has any choice in the matter.

I'm glad we agree. I was simply pointing out that the poster I was responding to wasn't making any more sense than that.

Originally posted by: DAGTA
Jesus' death was a sacrifice. He didn't want to do it. In fact, he prayed asking that it could be taken away from him but that he would submit to God's will if this was the way it had to be. Jesus did not kill himself. Men chose to beat him and crucify him. He was murdered. He knew it would happen, and he didn't want to go through it, but he knew it was the way to save humanity. He made himself the ultimate sacrifice for all of mankind.

It is my opinion that a sacrifice is distinctly different than suicide.

Again, I've addressed the differences between this and most other sacrifices.

Originally posted by: dxkj
If I knock someone from out in front of a car and get hit, saving their life, is that suicide?

If you beat a horse and it dies, is it still a horse?

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: thirtythree
He chose to die on the cross and, in theory, could've stopped it from happening. He even said "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" before "giving up the ghost," no? I was raised LDS, and thus consider God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to be separate entities (if I consider them at all, that is), but don't most religions believe that they are one? I mean, either Jesus or God must have made Jesus die, or was it just a coincidence that it happened right after he said that?

I'm not sure you're going to find a real answer to this question because it's really based on personal belief. It all really just depends on you own personal definition of suicide and of how/why Christ actually died.

On a side note, are you still LDS? I am, so I was just wondering.

No, I'm not.

Originally posted by: Schfifty Five

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Malak
I think you are missing what I'm trying to explain.

He didn't design it. He didn't commit it. He didn't do ANYTHING to explicitly cause it. Someone else arrested him, someone else tortured him, and someone else killed him. It required nothing from him. This happens every day, it isn't considered suicide in any society. The ability to stop it doesn't make it suicide.

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Plus could physical pain really kill him? I thought he endured even worse pain in the garden of whatcha-ma-jingle where he bled from every pore and such. Other religions believe in that, right? Plus, as mentioned in my original post, it seemed like he CHOSE to "give up the ghost."

Or do you believe it really was the torture that killed him?

Jesus was both man and God. God sent His son down to earth as a man and was also given the same feelings as you and I. Yes he felt pain and yes he could die from bodily harm.

I know he could feel pain, but I also think he could endure it. I've discussed this...

Originally posted by: HotChic
If a dad swims out into a rip tide to save his child, the child lives and the dad dies, is that suicide?

If you say yes to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is yes.

If you say no to that, then the answer to the question you asked, by your definitions, is no. I would say no.

Neiggggghhh!

 

[harobikes333]

the answer:no

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: DAGTA
By this form of logic, everything you do is your parents' fault, which really makes it their parents' fault, and so on back to the first living person and then up to God... so you're saying everything is God's fault and no one has any choice in the matter.

I'm glad we agree. I was simply pointing out that the poster I was responding to wasn't making any more sense than that.

So you don't believe in personal responsibility.

I can therefore walk in front of your house, fall down and claim to be hurt and sue you for not stopping me from being hurt in front of your house. Since you don't believe in personal responsibility, you won't contest my lawsuit, right?

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: DAGTA
By this form of logic, everything you do is your parents' fault, which really makes it their parents' fault, and so on back to the first living person and then up to God... so you're saying everything is God's fault and no one has any choice in the matter.

I'm glad we agree. I was simply pointing out that the poster I was responding to wasn't making any more sense than that.

So you don't believe in personal responsibility.

I can therefore walk in front of your house, fall down and claim to be hurt and sue you for not stopping me from being hurt in front of your house. Since you don't believe in personal responsibility, you won't contest my lawsuit, right?

I'm not sure where that came from. I, like you, do believe in personal responsibility. See my original response below:

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Bassyhead
Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden and humans were thereafter born in sin. If man haven't disobeyed God, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die, so therefore man is responsible for Christ's death.

Adam and Eve wouldn't have disobeyed God if God hadn't created them, so it was his fault they sinned, and thus his fault he died.

I, like you, was pointing out that Bassyhead's line of reasoning made no sense. God was responsible for creating Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve were responsible for sinning, and, the common theme of this thread, Christ was responsible for his death.

 

[harobikes333]

ok everyone has their own beliefs. let just end it at that.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: harobikes333
ok everyone has their own beliefs. let just end it at that.

Deal!