Did Atari not learn anything from EA and 3 activation limits?!

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
If two public statements from Atari mentioning nothing about revocable installs isn't enough to put this issue to rest, then i'm not sure what will. Not to mention the hundreds of articles and forum posts.. If a revoke feature was built in don't you think Atari would want to clear that up right away?

That's the thing though, this thread began before those clarifications from Atari and was clearly filled with misinformation based on unsubstantiated and inaccurate posts and news bits sourced from the same few inaccurate/incomplete sources. Even the original PC Gamer review you linked to was inaccurate in blaming SecuROM when the DRM used is actually Tages. The blogspot and Atari forum posts were also inaccurate saying 3 installs total and an inability to reinstall on the same machine when that's clearly not how the Tages DRM works.

Maybe you should give it a go and post your results if you're so convinced hundreds of people might be wrong. Chizow is going to do that supposedly.. I wonder if he'll still post his results if it does nothing but confirm what's already been reported a hundred times.. I'm guessing not.

Why wouldn't I report my findings? Unlike some people, I'm genuinely interested in finding out the truth rather than continually spreading misinformation and half-truths. The reality of it is most of the evidence you linked isn't completely accurate and most of the accounts from the various Atari forum members clearly aren't based on actual experience as they're full of inconsistencies and blatant lies.

But here's my account as someone who actually owns the game and tested the installation limits on 4 different OS installations:

• 1) There is a 3 machine/OS installation limit.
  2) The server will not activate the 4th machine even if one install is uninstalled from one of the first 3 machines.
  3) You have unlimited uninstallations and installations on the original 3 machines, tied to OS and hardware.
  4) In order to regain any installations you need to contact Atari's Hotline.

So there it is, the clarifications from Atari were accurate. The original reports, blogs, and news bits about 3 limited total installations are not. If you're someone who thinks that may be a problem, you will want to wait for a revoke tool or a change to the total activation limit. I'm guessing Atari will remove the install restrictions after a few months as Tages has proven its effectiveness in preventing Day 1 and early release piracy.

..and seriously, if pointing out an obvious inaccurate statement isn't debating then maybe you live on a different planet then the rest of us.

There's nothing inaccurate about my statement. It was a question that was not clearly answered and one you clearly didn't know the answer to either. Now it has been answered, simply enough.

 

[apoppin]

Thank-you!

 

[NoWhereM]

I don't think I've ever seen someone argue a postiton through an entire thread only to declare victory in the end by restating the position of someone else as their own.

Ahhh, who am I kidding, of course I have. This is the internet.

 

[ielmox]

Originally posted by: chizow
But here's my account as someone who actually owns the game and tested the installation limits on 4 different OS installations:

• 1) There is a 3 machine/OS installation limit.
  2) The server will not activate the 4th machine even if one install is uninstalled from one of the first 3 machines.
  3) You have unlimited uninstallations and installations on the original 3 machines, tied to OS and hardware.
  4) In order to regain any installations you need to contact Atari's Hotline.

This is pretty horrible. Imagine if more software took this approach - maintaining your PCs would become a total nightmare.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
That's the thing though, this thread began before those clarifications from Atari and was clearly filled with misinformation based on unsubstantiated and inaccurate posts and news bits sourced from the same few inaccurate/incomplete sources.

See below..

Originally posted by: chizow
But here's my account as someone who actually owns the game and tested the installation limits on 4 different OS installations:

• 1) There is a 3 machine/OS installation limit.
  2) The server will not activate the 4th machine even if one install is uninstalled from one of the first 3 machines.
  3) You have unlimited uninstallations and installations on the original 3 machines, tied to OS and hardware.
  4) In order to regain any installations you need to contact Atari's Hotline.

Great, you proved what was originally posted on 4/9 in this thread by the OP Golgatha as he linked to a news article from Blues News (dated Apr 09) that said the following:

The protection on the PC version of The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena is an activation system with online authentication required the first time you install the game on a machine. The activation code lets you install the game on up to 3 machines, with an unlimited number of installs on each assuming that you don?t change any major hardware in your PC or re-install your operating system.

If you reach the maximum number of installations you can contact the Atari hotline and if it?s a legitimate request you can get a new activation code.

We implement this protection in an effort to avoid early piracy.

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-b...wthread&threadid=97306

In all seriousness I do find it commendable that you actually posted your results. The thing is, I don't see how any misinformation was spread at all when the above article was linked to on day one of this thread which contains.. gasp.. clarifications from Atari. So again.. where is the misinformation here?

Originally posted by: chizow
There's nothing inaccurate about my statement. It was a question that was not clearly answered and one you clearly didn't know the answer to either. Now it has been answered, simply enough.

If you've convinced yourself that you were actually asking a legit question and not another feeble attempt to prove everyone wrong, we'll just leave it at that as no further explanation is needed for me.

 

[thilanliyan]

Although I don't like the DRM scheme (3 install limit is ridiculous...I'd rather have it on Steam) I also bought it...waiting for it to be delivered.

However as soon as a nocd crack becomes available...better believe I'm gonna use it. I really hate swapping DVDs...yes I'm that lazy sometimes.

Why not have something like when you activate your copy online, you can download a nocd patch from the developer? Probably a bit oversimplified but something like that would be great I think.

 

[Red Irish]

Concerning Winners

a post for the apologists of draconian DRM active on this thread

You have taken on the self-appointed task of attempting to prove us wrong at every possible turn when we complain about DRM, by "us" I am referring to any poster who has criticised DRM. Please understand that this is not a high school debating society: there are no points to be won and no winner will be adjudicated. We are not performing in front of an audience and stating that you have somehow "won" does not automatically bring an end to a discussion. More importantly, you should understand that it is impossible for you to "win": we are gamers who don't like draconian DRM, whereby, if you can convince us that we are wrong, that our fears are unfounded and that we're creating a lot of fuss over an insignificant issue, we couldn't possibly be happier. To date, no argument on any thread has convinced me that my fears are unfounded. Please understand that if your intentions, as you repeatedly state, are to educate both us and the wider community, referring to us as liars, idiots or pirates will do little for your cause; however, it will create a hostile environment that does little to facilitate intelligent debate. If you feel that you have information in your power that conflicts with anything that we have posted, educate us, but first, educate yourselves and stop recurring to the "liar, liar, pants on fire" routine. Finally, certain forms of DRM may prove effective against piracy, but the costs involved also have to be considered. If those costs imply that a significant section of the gaming community will feel alienated then the "blanket bombing", wherein both potential customers and pirates come under fire, needs to be questioned. If we can question and analyse this in a mature and civilised manner, everyone will "win".

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: apoppin
just because Atari doesn't "jump" when you ask them for clarification, does not support your claims - either way

Actually it does, as our main concern revolves around the fact that the companies are ignoring the wishes of their clients. Considering what they are charging for games these days, I expect them to jump and come equipped with a tape measure and several hoops.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
I don't think I've ever seen someone argue a postiton through an entire thread only to declare victory in the end by restating the position of someone else as their own.

Ahhh, who am I kidding, of course I have. This is the internet.

I think anyone reading this thread would come to the same conclusion. I always do my best to provide accurate information. I even revised the OP to read Tages instead of SecuROM at one point, as I was incorrectly informed that the North American release was using SecuROM (it seems the worldwide releases all use Tages).

Here's my summary after everything is all said and done.

1) Tages was effective in preventing day one piracy on the torrent sites. It is also effective in preventing casual piracy between friends, although you can install it on 3 machines, so even the "prevents casual piracy" win is debatable (at best it is minimized IMHO). If you're downloading from a torrent site, I find it hard to believe you're a potential customer for ATARI. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but logically they should be few and far between. There are plenty of illegal games out there to play while the pirates wait for a Dark Athena crack.

2) The 3 non-revocable installs pretty much snuff out the used market for this game and devalues the game if someone tries to resell it because the number of activations will be decrease by at least 1. I imagine the game is worthless after the first resell because ATARI wouldn't be wise to give out more activations for used copies (as long as Tages remains effective anyway). If someone has some time to go through the EULA, I'd like to know if you can "legally" resell the game in the first place.

3) This is a great game and there are lots of people, myself included, who will just refuse to purchase a new copy of this game. Educated consumers will always find a way to legally play the games they want to boycott, by simply buying a used copy. In the case of FEAR 2, where there isn't a used market, we will simply go without begrudgingly and never support that studio again.

4) I am reasonably confident that a crack will be released for this game eventually. Stalker CS has one (earlier version of Tages), SecuROM has been cracked for all currently available games, and even all Steam games are readily available for illegal download as well. History tends to repeat itself...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: apoppin
just because Atari doesn't "jump" when you ask them for clarification, does not support your claims - either way

Actually it does, as our main concern revolves around the fact that the companies are ignoring the wishes of their clients. Considering what they are charging for games these days, I expect them to jump and come equipped with a tape measure and several hoops.

You mean the less than 1 out of a hundred Atari customers who may have legitimately installed on more than 3 PCs in the first week of release?

4) I am reasonably confident that a crack will be released for this game eventually. Stalker CS has one (earlier version of Tages), SecuROM has been cracked for all currently available games, and even all Steam games are readily available for illegal download as well. History tends to repeat itself...

i'm reasonably sure a revocation tool will be released soon also

and i had an offer to buy my copy already for $30 .. clearly the buyer wasn't worried about having "only" 2 installs left
- i am keeping ... i already got my full $50 worth

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: apoppin
just because Atari doesn't "jump" when you ask them for clarification, does not support your claims - either way

Actually it does, as our main concern revolves around the fact that the companies are ignoring the wishes of their clients. Considering what they are charging for games these days, I expect them to jump and come equipped with a tape measure and several hoops.

You mean the less than 1 out of a hundred Atari customers who may have legitimately installed on more than 3 PCs in the first week of release?

4) I am reasonably confident that a crack will be released for this game eventually. Stalker CS has one (earlier version of Tages), SecuROM has been cracked for all currently available games, and even all Steam games are readily available for illegal download as well. History tends to repeat itself...

i'm reasonably sure a revocation tool will be released soon also

and i had an offer to buy my copy already for $30 .. clearly the buyer wasn't worried about having "only" 2 installs left
- i am keeping ... i already got my full $50 worth

The figure of 1% dissatisfied Atari customers that you keep brandishing is pure speculation. How many potential customers were deterred from buying the game?

The fact that you are "reasonably sure a revocation tool will be released soon" does not represent a firm commitment from the company. They should have clarified various aspects from the outset. Your posts evidence sycophantish and unquestioning company worship when there is clearly room for improvement, whereby you fail to address the concerns of the wider community. Surely, you are not trying to argue that the DRM on this game does not represent an impediment to subsequent second-hand sales? In any event, I am glad that you are entirely happy with everything Atari as things stand.

 

[apoppin]

my speculation matches yours

How many pirates bought the game because they can't crack it ?
- find those figures

i'd say Atari is successful with its DRM working
- now they need to learn how to communicate and bullsh!t like Steam does
. . . their PR is horrible

i agree with you on that last point .. except you are setting up a really st00pid strawman argument that falsely claims i am "happy with everything Atari"
:thumbsdown:

ALL i said was that i am VERY happy with the GAME and i have an offer to buy it
- i like Dark Athena; i got my fifty bucks worth *already* and i am keeping it

EfBB/AAoDA is 8.2/10 overall in my book
:thumbsup:

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: apoppin
my speculation matches yours

How many pirates bought the game because they can't crack it
- find those figures

i'd say Atari is successful with its DRM working
- now they need to learn how to communicate and bullsh!t like Steam does
. . . their PR is horrible

i agree with you on that last point .. except you are setting up a really st00pid strawman argument that falsely claims i am "happy" with "everything Atari"
:thumbsdown:

What aspects of the DRM on this game make you unhappy? Please clarify.

 

[apoppin]

i am talking about the game making me happy

No DRM makes me happy
- i just realize it is an imperfect world where there is theft of IP by pirates

Steam uses a far more restrictive DRM than Atari
- Steam DRM makes me unhappy

i don't buy steam games for myself anymore

 

[Red Irish]

And you are willing to let the companies attack the second-hand sales market and prevent us from reselling games we have purchased providing you enjoy the game in question? You are willing to refrain from extensively upgrading or renewing your rig more than 3 times while you own this game?

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: apoppin
just because Atari doesn't "jump" when you ask them for clarification, does not support your claims - either way

Actually it does, as our main concern revolves around the fact that the companies are ignoring the wishes of their clients. Considering what they are charging for games these days, I expect them to jump and come equipped with a tape measure and several hoops.

You mean the less than 1 out of a hundred Atari customers who may have legitimately installed on more than 3 PCs in the first week of release?

4) I am reasonably confident that a crack will be released for this game eventually. Stalker CS has one (earlier version of Tages), SecuROM has been cracked for all currently available games, and even all Steam games are readily available for illegal download as well. History tends to repeat itself...

i'm reasonably sure a revocation tool will be released soon also

and i had an offer to buy my copy already for $30 .. clearly the buyer wasn't worried about having "only" 2 installs left
- i am keeping ... i already got my full $50 worth

What your happy with a revoke tool?! You like this trend forcing people to revoke their games before uninstallation... You want to have to revoke every single frickin game you own before reinstalling or upgrading or moving to a new PC etc, how will you remember which games need revoked? Gonna write them all down? Gonna happily go through that every installation cycle? Well enjoy that :roll:

Clearly the buyer didnt have a fricking clue he would only have 2 installs left! No wonder people move to consoles...

AverageJoe - Why wont riddick install this is BS!

Deluded PC gamer - Pfft NOOB! You didnt use the revoke tool, you have to buy the game again... noob!

Pirate - Lol i paid nothing and get as many installs as i want... woot!

AverageJoe - Screw this im buying a 360.

Yeah thats fantastic lol. Well you lap it up while it lasts, the rest of us will avoid paying for a glorified rental that makes gaming on a PC even more complex than it already is (in comparison to consoles anyway).

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

AverageJoe - Why wont riddick install this is BS!

Deluded PC gamer - Pfft NOOB! You didnt use the revoke tool, you have to buy the game again... noob!

Pirate - Lol i paid nothing and get as many installs as i want... woot!

AverageJoe - Screw this im buying a 360.

Yeah thats fantastic lol. Well you lap it up while it lasts, the rest of us will avoid paying for a glorified rental that makes gaming on a PC even more complex than it already is (in comparison to consoles anyway).

Yes, that just about sums it up.

 

[apoppin]

Clearly the buyer didnt have a fricking clue he would only have 2 installs left! No wonder people move to consoles...

Yes he does and has been active in THIS thread - he told me he does not install his OS or change his HW often
- and a PHONE CALL to Atari will get you a new key ... you don't have to buy the game again
:roll:

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Clearly the buyer didnt have a fricking clue he would only have 2 installs left! No wonder people move to consoles...

Yes he does and has been active in THIS thread - he told me he does not install his OS or change his HW often
- and a PHONE CALL to Atari will get you a new key ... you don't have to buy the game again
:roll:

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

The fact that you were able to resell your game is irrelevant. The DRM on the game represents an impediment to resale. Moreover, why should I pay more to phone Atari?

Have you noticed the size of the PC section in any game outlets recently? Where I am, it has become increasingly smaller in comparison to the console sections over the course of the last few months. Draconian DRM will do little to alleviate this situation in my humble opinion. Do you understand why I see you siding with the company rather than the customer?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Great, you proved what was originally posted on 4/9 in this thread by the OP Golgatha as he linked to a news article from Blues News (dated Apr 09) that said the following:

The protection on the PC version of The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena is an activation system with online authentication required the first time you install the game on a machine. The activation code lets you install the game on up to 3 machines, with an unlimited number of installs on each assuming that you don?t change any major hardware in your PC or re-install your operating system.

If you reach the maximum number of installations you can contact the Atari hotline and if it?s a legitimate request you can get a new activation code.

We implement this protection in an effort to avoid early piracy.

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-b...wthread&threadid=97306

The above statements were no different than press releases about previous games where the gaming news outlets conveniently failed to mention uninstalls were returned on uninstall for titles like Spore, Crysis, Mass Effect etc. None of the sources specifically stated a 4th install would be rejected even if you uninstalled from another machine. None of the sources mentioned attempting it either.

In all seriousness I do find it commendable that you actually posted your results. The thing is, I don't see how any misinformation was spread at all when the above article was linked to on day one of this thread which contains.. gasp.. clarifications from Atari. So again.. where is the misinformation here?

Once again, as I've stated numerous times, I have nothing to hide. I'm genuinely interested in finding out the truth, that's it. Just starting at the beginning of this thread and wading through the BS to get down to how this form of DRM actually worked was near impossible with all the lies and noise generated by the anti-DRM crowd.

This was no different than any other activation limited title mentioned earlier when much of the hysteria turned out to be unfounded. Its obvious the lies are still being perpetuated as even to this day people don't understand a revoke tool is completely unnecessary for previous SecuROM games provided you first uninstall the game before making any HW changes.

As for the misinformation spread, my results directly contradict misinformation in the links you provided as evidence when asked why you thought the DRM on Riddick was any different than the activation limits used in the past earlier in this thread, so clearly they weren't completely fruitless. Certainly you aren't claiming the information in the links below are indeed accurate, are you?

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Just an update for you guys about the non-revocable installs issue. Below is a post from the Atari forums from a guy who has 3 copies of the game and did a test with one to prove the 3 installs are indeed non-revocable.

For some proof here. I installed and uninstalled the game on one of my laptops 3 times and with an attempted 4th install which failed.

I will be posting more on this later through my blog http://drmnewsbits.blogspot.com/

-Jollyrigger

Here's a link to the thread, post #27, near the bottom of the thread right now: http://www.ataricommunity.com/...1bd4c65829a62&t=671930

This was also reported in PC Gamer magazine in their review of the game.
http://www.giantbomb.com/the-c...n-revocable/35-235726/

If you've convinced yourself that you were actually asking a legit question and not another feeble attempt to prove everyone wrong, we'll just leave it at that as no further explanation is needed for me.

It was a legitimate question and one that wasn't answered clearly. Again, just as it wasn't asked or clearly answered when Spore, Mass Effect, Crysis, Alone in the Dark or any other SecuROM activation limited game launched. Wonder why that is?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Concerning Winners

a post for the apologists of draconian DRM active on this thread

You have taken on the self-appointed task of attempting to prove us wrong at every possible turn when we complain about DRM, by "us" I am referring to any poster who has criticised DRM. Please understand that this is not a high school debating society: there are no points to be won and no winner will be adjudicated. We are not performing in front of an audience and stating that you have somehow "won" does not automatically bring an end to a discussion. More importantly, you should understand that it is impossible for you to "win": we are gamers who don't like draconian DRM, whereby, if you can convince us that we are wrong, that our fears are unfounded and that we're creating a lot of fuss over an insignificant issue, we couldn't possibly be happier. To date, no argument on any thread has convinced me that my fears are unfounded. Please understand that if your intentions, as you repeatedly state, are to educate both us and the wider community, referring to us as liars, idiots or pirates will do little for your cause; however, it will create a hostile environment that does little to facilitate intelligent debate. If you feel that you have information in your power that conflicts with anything that we have posted, educate us, but first, educate yourselves and stop recurring to the "liar, liar, pants on fire" routine. Finally, certain forms of DRM may prove effective against piracy, but the costs involved also have to be considered. If those costs imply that a significant section of the gaming community will feel alienated then the "blanket bombing", wherein both potential customers and pirates come under fire, needs to be questioned. If we can question and analyse this in a mature and civilised manner, everyone will "win".

Sorry, a sudden urge to bump this previous post just came over me, can't explain why.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: ielmox

Originally posted by: chizow
But here's my account as someone who actually owns the game and tested the installation limits on 4 different OS installations:

• 1) There is a 3 machine/OS installation limit.
  2) The server will not activate the 4th machine even if one install is uninstalled from one of the first 3 machines.
  3) You have unlimited uninstallations and installations on the original 3 machines, tied to OS and hardware.
  4) In order to regain any installations you need to contact Atari's Hotline.

This is pretty horrible. Imagine if more software took this approach - maintaining your PCs would become a total nightmare.

I don't disagree its a step backwards, but its not unprecedented. You don't need to look any further than Microsoft and their online activation for their OS and apps. While I agree any type of install limit like this should be clearly communicated on the box prior to purchase, I also maintain its not enough to deter those who actually want to purchase it from purchasing it. I'd also maintain most users will never be affected by such an install limit, especially given the possibility of the publisher lifting any such install limits.

But ultimately the DRM they chose works, so its a start. After that it comes down to publishers keeping what works while throwing out or changing what doesn't work or isn't needed. In this case, Tages is clearly working, and based on the chatter from various idiots across internet forums, it may never be cracked. Now its just a matter of when or if they remove install limits, and from their press release there looks to be reason for optimism in that regard: We implement this protection in an effort to avoid early piracy.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Sorry, a sudden urge to bump this previous post just came over me, can't explain why.

Its difficult enough reading through your nonsense in the first place, expecting someone to read that block of text without proper formatting just isn't going to happen.

Sudden urge for me to repost this for you as well as it does a fine job disproving many of the fallacious arguments posed in your anti-DRM agenda.

Actually it looks like the Tages DRM that Riddick uses is effective enough, given the game hasn't been cracked yet a week after release. In the process, its doing a pretty good job of refuting some common fallacies about DRM:

1. 1) DRM doesn't work in preventing piracy
   2) DRM doesn't do anything to increase actual sales from those who would pirate anyways.

For proof the above statements are false, just drop into any of the many Riddick Crack threads on the various torrent sites. They're actually pretty funny reads, but certainly allows for a glimpse into the simple minds of petty thieves.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: apoppin
- and a PHONE CALL to Atari will get you a new key ... you don't have to buy the game again

Are you sure they'll give you a new key? How will they verify you bought it (even if you give them the cd key from the used game they would know it's been activated 3 times already)? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't encourage used sales as it means a lost sale for them. I'm ignorant about this as I've never had to call the company (I always use nocd cracks or buy from Steam as I never resell my games).

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Concerning Winners

a post for the apologists of draconian DRM active on this thread

You have taken on the self-appointed task of attempting to prove us wrong at every possible turn when we complain about DRM, by "us" I am referring to any poster who has criticised DRM. Please understand that this is not a high school debating society: there are no points to be won and no winner will be adjudicated. We are not performing in front of an audience and stating that you have somehow "won" does not automatically bring an end to a discussion. More importantly, you should understand that it is impossible for you to "win": we are gamers who don't like draconian DRM, whereby, if you can convince us that we are wrong, that our fears are unfounded and that we're creating a lot of fuss over an insignificant issue, we couldn't possibly be happier. To date, no argument on any thread has convinced me that my fears are unfounded. Please understand that if your intentions, as you repeatedly state, are to educate both us and the wider community, referring to us as liars, idiots or pirates will do little for your cause; however, it will create a hostile environment that does little to facilitate intelligent debate. If you feel that you have information in your power that conflicts with anything that we have posted, educate us, but first, educate yourselves and stop recurring to the "liar, liar, pants on fire" routine. Finally, certain forms of DRM may prove effective against piracy, but the costs involved also have to be considered. If those costs imply that a significant section of the gaming community will feel alienated then the "blanket bombing", wherein both potential customers and pirates come under fire, needs to be questioned. If we can question and analyse this in a mature and civilised manner, everyone will "win".

Sorry, a sudden urge to bump this previous post just came over me, can't explain why.

I agree with what you said here. It's too bad this is a foreign concept to some people. They'll go to great lengths to point out every minute detail of why the opposing stance is wrong (bringing up irrelevant details, accusing people of being pirates without any evidence, assuming views posted on another thread can somehow be used as evidence because a link is posted, etc..) ..but when an obvious mistake on their end is pointed out they are so caught up in their own ego they won't admit to it and would rather go to great lengths to defend themselves. I guess if nothing else it's extremely easy to recognize when this happens, and does nothing but help discredit further input from that person. Which is too bad because they will often have decent ideas that would be interesting to debate. The funny thing is, if they would just admit that they are sometimes wrong, just like the rest of us, it wouldn't even really be a problem. We could then go on debating real gaming issues, and not bicker over small meaningless details.

Oh, well.. Some people get stuck in that 10 year old mentality for their entire lives, and the more you continue to exercise that mentality in your life the more committed you become to that way of thinking.