DER SPIEGEL: Blaming Palin Will Backfire

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,763
10,066
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What statement? If you mean the one where I'm saying Palin was directly responsible for this shooting you're seeing something that's not there and you're coming off like the birther. Fact is we'll likely never know how much of an effect all the inciteful rhetoric had on this person. But you're a damn fool if you outright dismiss the toxic atmosphere and potential for violence it creates. And Palin and the rest of the rabid right IS responsible for that. The 24/7 rightwing hate speech spewed over the airwaves needs to stop or this likely won't be an isolated incident. The fact that "maybe" it didn't "directly" lead to this incident certainly doesn't redeem all the vitriol, and certainly doesn't give the right any foundation for playing victim when called on it.

Your attack on conservatism won't lead to 'incidents'? Look at history to figure out what happens when half a country is silenced by the other half.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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Your attack on conservatism won't lead to 'incidents'? Look at history to figure out what happens when half a country is silenced by the other half.

How nice you're equating conservatism with the tripe that's spewed on radio and cable news. At least you're being honest about your hate-based ideology. But even so, I don't want the message forcibly extinguished. I just want it exposed for the BS that it is. No more pretense of it being "legitimate" or "news" and hopefully it will be relegated to it's proper place of fringe obscurity. If anything good comes from this event, it will be a move in that direction.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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The current line of thought is the constant attacks by Dems will backfire huge because they're making this all about political gain while completely glossing over that 6 people were killed by a crazy guy. Just like calling working, tax paying Americans racist, it's going to backfire and fuel disapproval of them.
 

bl4ckfl4g

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2007
3,669
0
0
I'm not sure that it will totally backfire because Palin is handling it badly. She deleted her "Don't Retreat, Reload" tweet and other tweets on the subject. She removed the map from her website. Her spokesman is claiming that they aren't bullseyes, but surveyor marks, which is obviously false considering Palin's previous mention of them.

This should backfire on the left because it is silly. This guy has been planning this since 2007. However, Palin is acting guilty. They should have just defended it all without lying and trying to hide it. She would have been better off.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,797
8,375
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The current line of thought is the constant attacks by Dems will backfire huge because they're making this all about political gain while completely glossing over that 6 people were killed by a crazy guy. Just like calling working, tax paying Americans racist, it's going to backfire and fuel disapproval of them.

Political gain may be part of the picture here, but just as well, it's the retribution the Dems feel the need for in answer to all of the hate-filled, bigoted insinuated calls for violent acts to "take back the Nation" for "We the People" and on and on and on that the right has been filling the airwaves with ever since Pres. Obama ran for the presidency.

This incident just so happened to be a prime vehicle for doing just that.

It's only logical that if you throw stones at someone, expect to get bigger, faster ones coming back at you*.

*-generically speaking
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
What statement? If you mean the one where I'm saying Palin was directly responsible for this shooting you're seeing something that's not there and you're coming off like the birther. Fact is we'll likely never know how much of an effect all the inciteful rhetoric had on this person. But you're a damn fool if you outright dismiss the toxic atmosphere and potential for violence it creates. And Palin and the rest of the rabid right IS responsible for that. The 24/7 rightwing hate speech spewed over the airwaves needs to stop or this likely won't be an isolated incident. The fact that "maybe" it didn't "directly" lead to this incident certainly doesn't redeem all the vitriol, and certainly doesn't give the right any foundation for playing victim when called on it.


You aren't getting it. That there is a climate of political hostility doesn't mean that this guy cared one bit about the tea party or palin. Unless you can connect them as proximal cause to this event "this is clearly (fill in the blank) fault" doesn't withstand close scrutiny. In fact it comes off looking damn foolish. Note I am not a palin supporter or a fan of any politician and yes I do think that in a general sense there is too much bad rhetoric. Don't be guilty of what you oppose in others. Get the facts straight and don't use these people to get at her. That will bite you in the ass.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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You aren't getting it. That there is a climate of political hostility doesn't mean that this guy cared one bit about the tea party or palin. Unless you can connect them as proximal cause to this event "this is clearly (fill in the blank) fault" doesn't withstand close scrutiny. In fact it comes off looking damn foolish. Note I am not a palin supporter or a fan of any politician and yes I do think that in a general sense there is too much bad rhetoric. Don't be guilty of what you oppose in others. Get the facts straight and don't use these people to get at her. That will bite you in the ass.

No, you aren't getting it. Palin and the rest of the rabid right have done everything they can to create an environment that encourages this very thing. They absolutely deserve to be called out on that when it happens.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
No, you aren't getting it. Palin and the rest of the rabid right have done everything they can to create an environment that encourages this very thing. They absolutely deserve to be called out on that when it happens.

Then surely you will join the calls to end muslim teachings and preachings and incitation of violence on Americans everytime a muslim commits a murder in the name of islam?

Be fair now.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
I'm not sure that it will totally backfire because Palin is handling it badly. She deleted her "Don't Retreat, Reload" tweet and other tweets on the subject. She removed the map from her website. Her spokesman is claiming that they aren't bullseyes, but surveyor marks, which is obviously false considering Palin's previous mention of them.

This should backfire on the left because it is silly. This guy has been planning this since 2007. However, Palin is acting guilty. They should have just defended it all without lying and trying to hide it. She would have been better off.

Her reaction has been so drastic and swift I wouldn't be surprised if her or her organization knew and had ties with the shooter.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
146
Her reaction has been so drastic and swift I wouldn't be surprised if her or her organization knew and had ties with the shooter.

Just when I think you couldn't be any more of a dumbass, you go and surprise me.

Just wow...
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
No, you aren't getting it. Palin and the rest of the rabid right have done everything they can to create an environment that encourages this very thing. They absolutely deserve to be called out on that when it happens.

Then your complaint regarding this shooting is dismissed. It's opportunistic rhetoric. Your sense of what is and what should be are hopelessly entangled. Looks like the paper is probably right. You'll make palin look good by trying to frame her. You won't like it but then again some dont like that Obama is a legitimate citizen. Please, continue.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
146
How nice you're equating conservatism with the tripe that's spewed on radio and cable news. At least you're being honest about your hate-based ideology. But even so, I don't want the message forcibly extinguished. I just want it exposed for the BS that it is. No more pretense of it being "legitimate" or "news" and hopefully it will be relegated to it's proper place of fringe obscurity. If anything good comes from this event, it will be a move in that direction.

How funny you decry the speck in the republican's eye while ignoring the log firmly embeded in your own.

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/1...mate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

Both sides are equally guilty of over the top rhetoric.

NONE of which mattered to this crazy nutball. He had his own obsessions with grammar. If ANYTHING, blame the grammar nazis on the internet for his actions.

But you won't. You'll keep reaching for straws in a vain attempt to validate your ideology using the blood of those killed and wounded.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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Her reaction has been so drastic and swift I wouldn't be surprised if her or her organization knew and had ties with the shooter.

She might actually just feel guilty. With all my dislike for her politically, she is still a person, and a mother, and she may recognize the possibility that she encouraged this in some minute way, even if the rest of the extreme right is adamant to the contrary. It's all fun and games until someone puts an eye out.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
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How funny you decry the speck in the republican's eye while ignoring the log firmly embeded in your own.

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/1...mate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

Both sides are equally guilty of over the top rhetoric.

NONE of which mattered to this crazy nutball. He had his own obsessions with grammar. If ANYTHING, blame the grammar nazis on the internet for his actions.

But you won't. You'll keep reaching for straws in a vain attempt to validate your ideology using the blood of those killed and wounded.

Despite however you, or Malkin, or anyone else tries to spin this, the right has a 24 hour media machine spewing and regurgitating all their hate filled rhetoric over the airwaves with the intent of inflaming the public. That's the difference between the right and left extremes. It may not be one of lunacy or tactics, but it's definitely one of scope and degree.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
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She might actually just feel guilty. With all my dislike for her politically, she is still a person, and a mother, and she may recognize the possibility that she encouraged this in some minute way, even if the rest of the extreme right is adamant to the contrary. It's all fun and games until someone puts an eye out.

Good gawd you're agreeing with Dave. Does that tell you just how fucking crazy you are?

Palin didn't say or post anything that hasn't been said or posted by leaders of the left. The entire process is set up to mimic war. Battleground states, targets, etc. The left has put out the very same maps.

As I said before to the post you didn't respond to, don't be so quick to point out the faults of the other side while ignoring the very same faults in yours.

And that's even assuming they ARE faults, which they are not. This guy was driven by insanity, period. Not any political party's rhetoric.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
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Despite however you, or Malkin, or anyone else tries to spin this, the right has a 24 hour media machine spewing and regurgitating all their hate filled rhetoric over the airwaves with the intent of inflaming the public. That's the difference between the right and left extremes. It may not be one of lunacy or tactics, but it's definitely one of scope and degree.

Bullshit and you know it. The left's propaganda machine is just as well funded and pervasive.

I love your assumption that the kid even watched Fox news or saw Palin's maps. All the while ignoring the actual FACTS that have come out so far, like the kids clear instability, his obsession with grammar, and his long standing stalking of Giffords since 07 after she didn't answer his grammar question to his liking. But don't let that stop you from gaining political points on the blood of the innocent.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Yep, this kid did not get his news from Fox or CNN or any other mainstream source. He wouldn't have listened, let alone trusted any such source. He certainly didn't listen to what politicians said or promised. He was just nuts.

Anyone trying to use this kid for political gain is going to get egg on their face. He didn't have a party, and he didn't live in the real world. He marched to his own little band in his head.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
146
Yep, this kid did not get his news from Fox or CNN or any other mainstream source. He wouldn't have listened, let alone trusted any such source. He certainly didn't listen to what politicians said or promised. He was just nuts.

Anyone trying to use this kid for political gain is going to get egg on their face. He didn't have a party, and he didn't live in the real world. He marched to his own little band in his head.

Yep, even the damn Sheriff on the case has his head up his ass and is, rather than actually doing his job, taking marching orders from the top of the Democrat party:

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, a Democrat, also found a political element in Saturday's bloodshed. Dupnik argued that the "vitriol" of the country's harshly polarized political climate was partly to blame, arguing that unbalanced individuals are uniquely "susceptible" to vitriol. Dupnik added, in an interview with Fox News' Megyn Kelly: "We see one party trying to block the attempts of another party to make this a better country."

Asked by Kelly if he had any evidence Loughner was in any way influenced by political "vitriol," Dupnik offered none. "That's my opinion, period," he said.

WTF??? Seriously???
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Palin didn't say or post anything that hasn't been said or posted by leaders of the left. The entire process is set up to mimic war. Battleground states, targets, etc. The left has put out the very same maps.

Post a Democratic map with crosshairs accompanied by the statement "Don't retreat, reload".

And no, a target symbol is not the same as rifle scope crosshairs.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,797
8,375
136
Bullshit and you know it. The left's propaganda machine is just as well funded and pervasive.

I love your assumption that the kid even watched Fox news or saw Palin's maps. All the while ignoring the actual FACTS that have come out so far, like the kids clear instability, his obsession with grammar, and his long standing stalking of Giffords since 07 after she didn't answer his grammar question to his liking. But don't let that stop you from gaining political points on the blood of the innocent.

I'm somewhat in agreement with most of your post, but the bolded part? I think you just lost some creditablilty there....
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
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Post a Democratic map with crosshairs accompanied by the statement "Don't retreat, reload".

And no, a target symbol is not the same as rifle scope crosshairs.

Yes, it is the same. A target is what you shoot at.

As for words, how about "you don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
Obama.

We could go on for days and days here.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Bullshit and you know it. The left's propaganda machine is just as well funded and pervasive.

I love your assumption that the kid even watched Fox news or saw Palin's maps. All the while ignoring the actual FACTS that have come out so far, like the kids clear instability, his obsession with grammar, and his long standing stalking of Giffords since 07 after she didn't answer his grammar question to his liking. But don't let that stop you from gaining political points on the blood of the innocent.

There is just no way you can equate the propaganda coming from the left to that of the right. There is an order of magnitude in difference that is plainly apparent. Hell, look no further than the campaigns of the last election as proof. But anyway, if that kid had eyes and ears I can pretty much guarantee he was exposed to that hateful rightwing rhetoric as much as everyone else was. Yes he's also clearly obviously disturbed, and maybe he decided in 2007 he was going to do something like this. Or maybe it took 3 more years of the kind of vitriol spewed by the right to turn his screw enough to actually do it. I don't know. You don't know. But to defend those who overtly encouraged this very sort of thing, and created such an upside down environment where we actually have morons defending it because "maybe" it didn't contribute to this incident, is flat out sickening.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,354
19,534
146
I'm somewhat in agreement with most of your post, but the bolded part? I think you just lost some creditablilty there....

How so? The left has billions of dollars and it's own network just as the right does (MSNBC) not to mention, the bulk of the mainstream media is left leaning.

creditablilty?
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Stop using the victims for political gain! Giffords is struggling for her life.

Cut it out and grow up. Stop equating normal political rhetoric, common for as long as we've had elections, with incitement to murder. You know damn well all sides have used such rhetoric forever.

Stop trying to use a tragedy. It only makes you look worse than the folks you're trying to attack.

Fight on Gabby! Tell them you don't like that damn tube!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_he_me/us_med_congresswoman_brain_injury

TUCSON, Ariz. – Doctors said Monday that Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' brain remains swollen, but the pressure isn't increasing — a good sign for the congresswoman's recovery.

Neurosurgeon Dr. Michael Lemole of Tucson's University Medical Center said Giffords' condition two days after surgery for a gunshot wound to the head remains stable. He said that swelling from such an injury typically peaks around the third day, so doctors "can breathe a collective sigh of relief" after that.

Dr. Peter Rhee said surgeons had seen many encouraging signs. On Sunday and Monday, Giffords was able to respond to a verbal command by raising two fingers with her left hand.

"When she did that, we were having a party in there," Rhee said, adding that Giffords has also managed to give doctors a thumbs-up and has been reaching for her breathing tube, even while sedated. "That's a purposeful movement. That's a great thing. She's always grabbing for the tube," Rhee said.

Rhee said the swelling in her face is "remarkably improved" and that her kidney function was "great."

"You get shot in the head, you should be dead — and she didn't die. She is thinking. She can hear and follow commands. This is remarkable," Rhee said. "So far so good. Like I said, this is as good as it gets."

...