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JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,996
14
81
lol, oh this is great. Happy to see people expressing there interpretation of events. I'm all for this. Can't wait for the next artist depicting large groups of blacks burning down neighborhoods, shooting cops, stealing, assaulting white people, all with a large caption at the top, "He was a good boy on his way to college." I like it! Go art!
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
29,189
2,900
126
lol, oh this is great. Happy to see people expressing there interpretation of events. I'm all for this. Can't wait for the next artist depicting large groups of blacks burning down neighborhoods, shooting cops, stealing, assaulting white people, all with a large caption at the top, "He was a good boy on his way to college." I like it! Go art!
That's the beauty of free speech, isn't it?
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
Now who do you think Comedy Central is worried about offending, liberals or Muslim conservatives?



That painting probably already exists somewhere in Chicago, haha.
You are painting that trim with too broad a brush. I find it curious that American liberals are so culturally tolerant of Muslim conservatism, yet abhor Christian conservatism, when both seek to impose similar societal norms.

Also, I have found liberals and conservatives are both lacking in a sense of humor or fun for their pet causes. Liberals after all are the ones who believe that Halloween costumes = cultural appropriation.

Art is an expression of worldview and perspective. I am less concerned about the expression of thoughts themselves, as that is the end product and confronting the art itself, as disrespectful as it might be, is reactionary. I am more concerned about the environment that shapes the mind of a child such that they would perceive police as animals.
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,073
7,558
146
You are painting that trim with too broad a brush. I find it curious that American liberals are so culturally tolerant of Muslim conservatism, yet abhor Christian conservatism, when both seek to impose similar societal norms.

Also, I have found liberals and conservatives are both lacking in a sense of humor or fun for their pet causes. Liberals after all are the ones who believe that Halloween costumes = cultural appropriation.

Art is an expression of worldview and perspective. I am less concerned about the expression of thoughts themselves, as that is the end product and confronting the art itself, as disrespectful as it might be, is reactionary. I am more concerned about the environment that shapes the mind of a child such that they would perceive police as animals.
When have "Muslim conservatives" tried to use the power of the government to force their belief system on the American people? Abortion, marriage equality, "religious liberty" etc... are only being pushed by Christian conservatives.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,813
20,242
136
You are painting that trim with too broad a brush. I find it curious that American liberals are so culturally tolerant of Muslim conservatism, yet abhor Christian conservatism, when both seek to impose similar societal norms.
What do you mean culturally tolerant? In this case I think both people whining about art that depicts their religious figure is stupid and I don't tolerate either. What might be confusing you here is that christian conservatives are the target of more ire in America but that's because...well... they are the ones actually trying to impose those societal norms here.

Also, I have found liberals and conservatives are both lacking in a sense of humor or fun for their pet causes. Liberals after all are the ones who believe that Halloween costumes = cultural appropriation.
I'm very liberal and I don't believe that. People can have shitty or offensive costumes at Halloween but I would never try and say they can't wear them. Be as offensive as you want, just be prepared for someone to tell you that you're a shithead.

Art is an expression of worldview and perspective. I am less concerned about the expression of thoughts themselves, as that is the end product and confronting the art itself, as disrespectful as it might be, is reactionary. I am more concerned about the environment that shapes the mind of a child such that they would perceive police as animals.
I doubt they actually believe the police are animals, they are using a common term of disrespect for police, and frankly the police in America have earned some disrespect.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
29,189
2,900
126
You are painting that trim with too broad a brush. I find it curious that American liberals are so culturally tolerant of Muslim conservatism, yet abhor Christian conservatism, when both seek to impose similar societal norms.

Also, I have found liberals and conservatives are both lacking in a sense of humor or fun for their pet causes. Liberals after all are the ones who believe that Halloween costumes = cultural appropriation.

Art is an expression of worldview and perspective. I am less concerned about the expression of thoughts themselves, as that is the end product and confronting the art itself, as disrespectful as it might be, is reactionary. I am more concerned about the environment that shapes the mind of a child such that they would perceive police as animals.
You're also painting with too broad a brush. You're throwing all liberals in one bucket.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
126
hummm if the student won the contest with a piece that was heavy Confederate with rebel flags and black people in the field picking cotton, would the democrat senators be so protective of it? after all free speech is free speech, right?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
When have "Muslim conservatives" tried to use the power of the government to force their belief system on the American people? Abortion, marriage equality, "religious liberty" etc... are only being pushed by Christian conservatives.
People want the society they live in to respect and reflect their values. The problem we now face is that primarily rural Christian conservative and secular or agnostic urban communities are becoming increasingly divergent, intolerant and isolated of each respective perspective. I see a lot of pushing and imposing from both sides.

As for Muslims, I was speaking more to the hypocrisy of liberals (in general) supporting feminism and equal rights while simultaneously rushing to the defense of Islamic cultural practices and traditions that at their core and intent are degrading to women in sustaining a patriarchal hierarchy of control.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,813
20,242
136
People want the society they live in to respect and reflect their values. The problem we now face is that primarily rural Christian conservative and secular or agnostic urban communities are becoming increasingly divergent, intolerant and isolated of each respective perspective. I see a lot of pushing and imposing from both sides.

As for Muslims, I was speaking more to the hypocrisy of liberals (in general) supporting feminism and equal rights while simultaneously rushing to the defense of Islamic cultural practices and traditions that at their core and intent are degrading to women in sustaining a patriarchal hierarchy of control.
Any rational person can support equal rights and feminism while still respecting other people's cultural practices. It's the difference between what you believe people SHOULD do and what you believe they MUST do. I don't see many liberals or feminists saying that conservative Islamic values are good ones or things we should emulate/enforce here. I bet you would see that as soon as conservative Christians stop trying to force their morality on people in the US you'd get a lot less antipathy towards them. The Amish are as conservative as they get in a cultural sense but you don't see people going after them. Why? They don't try and make you live by their morals.
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
7,557
671
126
Any rational person can support equal rights and feminism while still respecting other people's cultural practices. It's the difference between what you believe people SHOULD do and what you believe they MUST do. I don't see many liberals or feminists saying that conservative Islamic values are good ones or things we should emulate/enforce here. I bet you would see that as soon as conservative Christians stop trying to force their morality on people in the US you'd get a lot less antipathy towards them. The Amish are as conservative as they get in a cultural sense but you don't see people going after them. Why? They don't try and make you live by their morals.
Ding. The only way it's comparable is if somehow Sharia law was being forced on us. Oh, wait ...
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
What do you mean culturally tolerant? In this case I think both people whining about art that depicts their religious figure is stupid and I don't tolerate either. What might be confusing you here is that christian conservatives are the target of more ire in America but that's because...well... they are the ones actually trying to impose those societal norms here.



I'm very liberal and I don't believe that. People can have shitty or offensive costumes at Halloween but I would never try and say they can't wear them. Be as offensive as you want, just be prepared for someone to tell you that you're a shithead.



I doubt they actually believe the police are animals, they are using a common term of disrespect for police, and frankly the police in America have earned some disrespect.
They are not imposing societal norms. They are trying to sustain norms that, for a variety of reasons, are rapidly changing around them, and some politicians have managed to exploit the natural anxiety around those changes as a source of power.

As for your comment on police, that is a reflection of your bias and buying into a narrative that some of us don't subscribe to.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
Any rational person can support equal rights and feminism while still respecting other people's cultural practices. It's the difference between what you believe people SHOULD do and what you believe they MUST do. I don't see many liberals or feminists saying that conservative Islamic values are good ones or things we should emulate/enforce here. I bet you would see that as soon as conservative Christians stop trying to force their morality on people in the US you'd get a lot less antipathy towards them. The Amish are as conservative as they get in a cultural sense but you don't see people going after them. Why? They don't try and make you live by their morals.
I think you will find the same would be true if liberals stopped imposing their myopic perspective of identity, entitlement and victimhood.

The Amish are an outlier because they are homogenous and culturally isolated, and too small of a community to garner political attention. It would be an entirely different conversation if the Amish lived in say Queens and had the numbers and political influence to shape NYC politics.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,813
20,242
136
They are not imposing societal norms. They are trying to sustain norms that, for a variety of reasons, are rapidly changing around them, and some politicians have managed to exploit the natural anxiety around those changes as a source of power.
Well if they aren't trying to impose norms then I assume they aren't against gay marriage, aren't against gay adoption of children, aren't against abortion, aren't trying to get creationism taught in schools, etc, etc. They are free to live their lives by those norms all they want, but of course they don't stop there. They try to force other people to live by their norms as well, also known as imposing them.

As for your comment on police, that is a reflection of your bias and buying into a narrative that some of us don't subscribe to.
Why would my subscribing to it be a reflection of my bias but your not subscribing to it not be a reflection of your bias?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,471
8,479
136
You mean something like this that was government funded and the liberal left including Hillary defended as free speech.





Liberals set the standard for mocking religion in an artistic form, long before 9/11, Islamophobia, etc. at a time when most Americans couldn't care or know enough about Islam and Muslims to draw cartoons about them, so don't be hypocrites now when someone mocks any religion or group (like police officers) and calls it art and others get offended and want it removed.
Yeah, my point was completely lost on you but I do appreciate you inadvertently supporting the actual point I was making.
So thanks for that! Lol!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,813
20,242
136
I think you will find the same would be true if liberals stopped imposing their myopic perspective of identity, entitlement and victimhood.
Now that brush is getting REALLY broad, haha. I'm glad this is all coming out though, it's very instructive as to your perspective.

The Amish are an outlier because they are homogenous and culturally isolated, and too small of a community to garner political attention. It would be an entirely different conversation if the Amish lived in say Queens and had the numbers and political influence to shape NYC politics.
There are proportionally similar numbers of Amish in suburban Philadelphia as a percent of total population than there are ultra-orthodox in NYC (maybe more), and the ultra-orthodox definitely shape NYC politics. So what's the excuse now?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
Now that brush is getting REALLY broad, haha. I'm glad this is all coming out though, it's very instructive as to your perspective.



There are proportionally similar numbers of Amish in suburban Philadelphia as a percent of total population than there are ultra-orthodox in NYC (maybe more), and the ultra-orthodox definitely shape NYC politics. So what's the excuse now?
I suppose it then becomes a question of power and influence. The Amish seem perfectly content within the boundaries of their community, and other surrounding demographics do not perceive the Amish way of life as something they wish to attain for themselves. If either of those closed systems were to interact to the extent it creates a question of equity, that dynamic would change immediately

I believe Rush said it best...
There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'oppression!'
And the oaks, just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,813
20,242
136
I suppose it then becomes a question of power and influence. The Amish seem perfectly content within the boundaries of their community, and other surrounding demographics do not perceive the Amish way of life as something they wish to attain for themselves. If either of those closed systems were to interact to the extent it creates a question of equity, that dynamic would change immediately
Exactly my point, the Amish live and let live, and the surrounding communities do the same. If Christian conservatives would learn a few lessons from them and do the same then I doubt liberals would complain about them much.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,017
571
126
Just so we are clear: The right has no issues with cartoons of Muhammad but a painting by a kid depicting a cop as a pig is crossing the line?

I remember a time when art that provoked an emotion, controversial or not, was an example of what freedom looked like in this country.
Free expression is not the issue. No one's saying people shouldn't be allowed to draw pictures of cops as pigs.

They're saying it's not appropriate to hang it on the premises of of the Capitol. Just as an image of Muhammad wouldn't be. Or pornography. Or anyone of a number of items that are covered by freedom of expression, yet remain in poor taste depending on where and how they are displayed.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,608
1,863
126
Exactly my point, the Amish live and let live, and the surrounding communities do the same. If Christian conservatives would learn a few lessons from them and do the same then I doubt liberals would complain about them much.
Your point is still a matter of perspective.

As a secular centrist who leans fiscally conservative but has increasingly embraced social liberalism, I see an almost religious fervor to some liberal causes to the extent that I think we all collectively would benefit from a little live and let live.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,714
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You mean something like this that was government funded and the liberal left including Hillary defended as free speech.





Liberals set the standard for mocking religion in an artistic form, long before 9/11, Islamophobia, etc. at a time when most Americans couldn't care or know enough about Islam and Muslims to draw cartoons about them, so don't be hypocrites now when someone mocks any religion or group (like police officers) and calls it art and others get offended and want it removed.
Mocking?

"The only message is that I’m a Christian artist making a religious work of art based on my relationship with Christ and The Church. The crucifix is a symbol that has lost its true meaning; the horror of what occurred. It represents the crucifixion of a man who was tortured, humiliated and left to die on a cross for several hours. In that time, Christ not only bled to dead, he probably saw all his bodily functions and fluids come out of him. So if “Piss Christ” upsets people, maybe this is so because it is bringing the symbol closer to its original meaning. There was a time prior to the 17th century when the only important art, the only art that mattered, was religious art. After that, there were very few contemporary art pieces that were considered both art and religious, and “Piss Christ” is one of them"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/udoka-okafor/exclusive-interview-with-_18_b_5442141.html
 

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