Question DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors.

I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock setting without bumping the voltage a bit.

I was thinking about the cause for this and I believe the problem is, that people do not appreciate, how high these frequencies are and that the real comfortable frequency limit of these CPUs is probably at something like 5500 or 5600 MHz. These CPUs are made on a same process (possibly improved somehow) on which Alder lake CPUs were made. See the frequencies 12900KS runs at. The frequency improvement of the new process tweak may not be so high as some people presume.

Those 13900K CPUs are probably highly binned to be able to find those which contain some cores which can reliably run at 5800 MHz. Some of the 13900K probably have little/no OC reserve left and pushing them will cause them to degrade/break.

The conclusion for me is that the best you can do to your 13900K or 13900KF is to disable the 5800 MHz peak, which will allow you to offset the voltage lower, and then set all core maximal frequency to some comfortable level, I guess the maximum level could be 5600 MHz. With lowered voltage this frequency should be gentler to the processor than running it at original 5500 MHz at higher voltage. You can also run it at lower frequencies, allowing for even higher voltage drop, but then the CPU is slowly loosing its sense (unless you want some high efficiency CPU intended for heavy multithread loads).

Running it with some power consumption limit dependent on your cooling solution to keep the CPU at sensible temperature will help too for sure.
 
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lakedude

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2009
2,755
518
126
Saw an AMD vs Intel post on a normal (not technical) site. Evidently the public at large knows nothing about RL issues. The responses were just, IDK, funny.

Typical response was something like "Intel is better for work, AMD is better for nerds who want to save money."

I started to mention the RL issues but then thought better of it. Ignorance is bliss.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,775
3,051
136
Intel finally got back to me and is in the process of sending me a mailing label for my CPU return. They are going to send me a check for the full $551 I paid for the CPU.
Not that anyone really cares but I think I know what I'm going to do. After thinking long and hard I don't see any significant to upgrade to Zen 5 or ARL at this point. Honestly a bit issue is the work of starting fresh from Windows. It's a chore as we all know. Deauthorizing software, reinstalling, dealing with MS Office activation, etc...

I'm not getting another 14900K. I don't have the cooling to really benefit much from that CPU. It's $420 at MC. For $320 I can get a 14700K. $100 for 1 additional Gracemont cluster? Nah. I know there is a clock advantage theoretically, but not really because I'm going to run whatever I get at a max frequency of ~5.2GHz anyway.

I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.

Anyway that's the plan until someone tells me to just bite the bullet and go Zen 5 because I can upgrade to Zen 6 next year on AM5. That is in the back of my head because I can nearly swap my 14900K for a 9950X, or get a 9900X and put some of that savings into the mobo and RAM.

Soon I'm going to have to pull this CPU and then I'm going to be out a desktop computer until I figure it out!
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
26,464
15,575
136
Intel finally got back to me and is in the process of sending me a mailing label for my CPU return. They are going to send me a check for the full $551 I paid for the CPU.
Not that anyone really cares but I think I know what I'm going to do. After thinking long and hard I don't see any significant to upgrade to Zen 5 or ARL at this point. Honestly a bit issue is the work of starting fresh from Windows. It's a chore as we all know. Deauthorizing software, reinstalling, dealing with MS Office activation, etc...

I'm not getting another 14900K. I don't have the cooling to really benefit much from that CPU. It's $420 at MC. For $320 I can get a 14700K. $100 for 1 additional Gracemont cluster? Nah. I know there is a clock advantage theoretically, but not really because I'm going to run whatever I get at a max frequency of ~5.2GHz anyway.

I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.

Anyway that's the plan until someone tells me to just bite the bullet and go Zen 5 because I can upgrade to Zen 6 next year on AM5. That is in the back of my head because I can nearly swap my 14900K for a 9950X, or get a 9900X and put some of that savings into the mobo and RAM.

Soon I'm going to have to pull this CPU and then I'm going to be out a desktop computer until I figure it out!
Well, not that it will work without issue (especially re-activating windows) but many times I have made huge upgrades, even changing platforforms without re-installing windows from scratch. Just something to think about.
 

DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,591
1,158
136
Intel finally got back to me and is in the process of sending me a mailing label for my CPU return. They are going to send me a check for the full $551 I paid for the CPU.
Not that anyone really cares but I think I know what I'm going to do. After thinking long and hard I don't see any significant to upgrade to Zen 5 or ARL at this point. Honestly a bit issue is the work of starting fresh from Windows. It's a chore as we all know. Deauthorizing software, reinstalling, dealing with MS Office activation, etc...

I'm not getting another 14900K. I don't have the cooling to really benefit much from that CPU. It's $420 at MC. For $320 I can get a 14700K. $100 for 1 additional Gracemont cluster? Nah. I know there is a clock advantage theoretically, but not really because I'm going to run whatever I get at a max frequency of ~5.2GHz anyway.

I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.

Anyway that's the plan until someone tells me to just bite the bullet and go Zen 5 because I can upgrade to Zen 6 next year on AM5. That is in the back of my head because I can nearly swap my 14900K for a 9950X, or get a 9900X and put some of that savings into the mobo and RAM.

Soon I'm going to have to pull this CPU and then I'm going to be out a desktop computer until I figure it out!
Seen ppl say they went from Intel to AMD and not reinstall, with no problems. No idea how true that is.

I personally am going AM3+ to AM5. Don't know if it will be much of a difference in what I actually do. Besides maybe get to play Elden Ring. Only thing this thing will not run ATM.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,795
14,851
136
I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.
12900k. There's a reason the 12700K is the only Intel CPU that stays int he top 10 Amazon best sellers, and the 12900K is better suited for your needs.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
30,036
26,108
146
Intel keeps selling you defective CPUs and your response is -

giphy.gif


I can't even...

My hot take is - stop gaslighting yourself about having to reinstall windows and all of your stuff. You have had to troubleshoot and replace multiple CPUs, no way it is going to take more time and effort than all of that.

It reminds me of A Christmas story "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics; my father was an Oldsmobile man." "That son of a bitch would freeze up in the middle of summer on the equator" 🤣
 
Jul 27, 2020
21,415
14,887
146
My hot take is - stop gaslighting yourself about having to reinstall windows and all of your stuff. You have had to troubleshoot and replace multiple CPUs, no way it is going to take more time and effort than all of that.
I'm guessing he wants to wait till at least June next year to make up his mind coz there's still 9950X3D, Strix Halo, possible Bart Lake, possible 295K etc. left to be revealed and he would prefer to spend his money once and be comfy for at least two years without needing to upgrade.

What I would do in his situation:


Pair that with 8700G and DDR5-8000.

OR


Pair that with 245K and the highest RAM speed kit budget allows.

But that's just me.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,251
11,962
136
My hot take is - stop gaslighting yourself about having to reinstall windows and all of your stuff. You have had to troubleshoot and replace multiple CPUs, no way it is going to take more time and effort than all of that.

It reminds me of A Christmas story "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics; my father was an Oldsmobile man." "That son of a bitch would freeze up in the middle of summer on the equator" 🤣

If he buys a 12900k, he can ride that out until he can afford the time and money to invest in a new platform. A check for $551 isn't going to put together a competent AM5 system on its own.
 

Thunder 57

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2007
3,111
4,943
136
Intel finally got back to me and is in the process of sending me a mailing label for my CPU return. They are going to send me a check for the full $551 I paid for the CPU.
Not that anyone really cares but I think I know what I'm going to do. After thinking long and hard I don't see any significant to upgrade to Zen 5 or ARL at this point. Honestly a bit issue is the work of starting fresh from Windows. It's a chore as we all know. Deauthorizing software, reinstalling, dealing with MS Office activation, etc...

I'm not getting another 14900K. I don't have the cooling to really benefit much from that CPU. It's $420 at MC. For $320 I can get a 14700K. $100 for 1 additional Gracemont cluster? Nah. I know there is a clock advantage theoretically, but not really because I'm going to run whatever I get at a max frequency of ~5.2GHz anyway.

I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.

Anyway that's the plan until someone tells me to just bite the bullet and go Zen 5 because I can upgrade to Zen 6 next year on AM5. That is in the back of my head because I can nearly swap my 14900K for a 9950X, or get a 9900X and put some of that savings into the mobo and RAM.

Soon I'm going to have to pull this CPU and then I'm going to be out a desktop computer until I figure it out!

If you are waiting to see what happens in the first half of next year a 14600k might be suitable if you are just looking for something to hold you over.

I went from 12th gen Intel to AM5 no problems.

I went from Ivy Bridge to Zen+ to Zen 3 without reinstalling Windows. I will certainly redo it next time because of what I am sure is plenty of Windows rot but it has worked without issue.

Intel keeps selling you defective CPUs and your response is -

giphy.gif


I can't even...

My hot take is - stop gaslighting yourself about having to reinstall windows and all of your stuff. You have had to troubleshoot and replace multiple CPUs, no way it is going to take more time and effort than all of that.

It reminds me of A Christmas story "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics; my father was an Oldsmobile man." "That son of a bitch would freeze up in the middle of summer on the equator" 🤣

Yes it's basically Stockholm syndrome at this point. Complain about Intel sitting on there hands just to buy a replacement and run it at reduced performance. I really don't mean to sound like a butthead because you are a good guy and all.
 

Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,158
1,218
136
Intel keeps selling you defective CPUs and your response is -

giphy.gif


I can't even...
They are not defective, they just go bad if you let them run too quickly. Before that they work just fine, they are even pretty energy efficient and easy to cool - how much depends on how much you limit the frequency.

Buying a new Raptor lake CPU and preventing it from degrading is the most rational and also cheapest thing to do now.

The alternatives NOW are an AM5 platform in its first (slightly problematic) iteration and not truly updated for this year, and a new LGA 1851 platform, but with a bit underwhelming first gen CPUs.

The next year brings better CPUs for LGA 1851 and truly updated AM5 platform with even better CPUs.
 
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KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,214
1,554
136
But why stop at downclocking Raptor Lake by 10% or similar?

Surely with the frequency turned down to 0Mhz, they will last forever!

Although having said that, if I was @Hulk and already had the motherboard then staying put probably does makes financial sense. It is just "I don't want to reinstall Windows" excuse I find strange!
 

Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,158
1,218
136
Sometimes, cognitive dissonance shines so brilliantly it could be mistaken for a diamond.
??? There are few options of what to do with associated costs and benefits (financial and other). Everybody should decide what to do based on their preferences and using a reason.

I have no intention to excuse Intel for what they do with their products, or to glorify the first iteration of AM5 platform or the new 9800x3d chip, which is an extremely expensive weak 8 core CPU, which performs very well in just one task and in specific conditions.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,775
3,051
136
You guys are convincing me to just go AMD and bite the bullet. Yes, I am quite capable of reloading windows if necessary. It's just a long process and I assume I'm like most of you in that I'm very particular as to how I customize Windows and my apps. After the initial install I'm tweaking now and then for a couple weeks.
 

In2Photos

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,206
2,275
136
You guys are convincing me to just go AMD and bite the bullet. Yes, I am quite capable of reloading windows if necessary. It's just a long process and I assume I'm like most of you in that I'm very particular as to how I customize Windows and my apps. After the initial install I'm tweaking now and then for a couple weeks.
Just make a backup of your existing Windows install before you switch platforms. If something goes terribly wrong you're covered. But I think most who have gone this route have been fine. The tech tubers use the same Windows install every time they build a new PC to show off. So they're switching back and forth constantly.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,775
3,051
136
Just make a backup of your existing Windows install before you switch platforms. If something goes terribly wrong you're covered. But I think most who have gone this route have been fine. The tech tubers use the same Windows install every time they build a new PC to show off. So they're switching back and forth constantly.
Good advice. Thanks.
 

mmaenpaa

Member
Aug 4, 2009
104
195
116
You guys are convincing me to just go AMD and bite the bullet. Yes, I am quite capable of reloading windows if necessary. It's just a long process and I assume I'm like most of you in that I'm very particular as to how I customize Windows and my apps. After the initial install I'm tweaking now and then for a couple weeks.
Well,

I just upgraded my customer's PC from Intel i7-4770K to AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D.
After that I updated W10 to W11. All programs (old Adobe lightroom, Photoshop etc.) were working.
All I had to reactivate was Windows.

This PC has gone through W8P->W8.1P->W10P->W11P since 2013 😁

Of course I removed Intel drivers after first AMD boot and installed AMD drivers during process.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,842
4,854
136
Intel finally got back to me and is in the process of sending me a mailing label for my CPU return. They are going to send me a check for the full $551 I paid for the CPU.
Not that anyone really cares but I think I know what I'm going to do. After thinking long and hard I don't see any significant to upgrade to Zen 5 or ARL at this point. Honestly a bit issue is the work of starting fresh from Windows. It's a chore as we all know. Deauthorizing software, reinstalling, dealing with MS Office activation, etc...

I'm not getting another 14900K. I don't have the cooling to really benefit much from that CPU. It's $420 at MC. For $320 I can get a 14700K. $100 for 1 additional Gracemont cluster? Nah. I know there is a clock advantage theoretically, but not really because I'm going to run whatever I get at a max frequency of ~5.2GHz anyway.

I'm seriously leaning towards a 14600K for $220 at MC. I'm running 6+8 right now just to see how I get along. It's really not a problem. Plus I can turn on HT and fully utilize what I paid for.

Anyway that's the plan until someone tells me to just bite the bullet and go Zen 5 because I can upgrade to Zen 6 next year on AM5. That is in the back of my head because I can nearly swap my 14900K for a 9950X, or get a 9900X and put some of that savings into the mobo and RAM.

Soon I'm going to have to pull this CPU and then I'm going to be out a desktop computer until I figure it out!
For that 550 USD you could buy a M4 Mac Mini, if you don't want to reinstall Windows.

:p