Dakota Pipeline - Protestors Assaulted With Water Cannons In Freezing Weather

[Kazukian]

Quite revealing the same sort of people are still trying to Manifest Destiny.

Funny how no Democrats are saying a thing, isn't it?

Ever wonder why?

 

[agent00f]

Funny how no Democrats are saying a thing, isn't it?

Ever wonder why?

Centrists don't want to screw natives but love money, too. And it's worth noting Senator Franken wrote the justice dept on this issue.

 

[Kazukian]

Centrists don't want to screw natives but love money, too. And it's worth noting Senator Franken wrote the justice dept on this issue.

Warren won't even comment publicly.

 

[agent00f]

Warren won't even comment publicly.

Really shows how liberal/leftist the democratic party is.

 

[werepossum]

fuck yes I would...

Why wouldn't we leave all of our oil in the ground until the day comes when everyone else is used up?

The other nations would take their immense trade imbalances and use the profits to buy the American oil companies. Then when the time came to use our oil, that too would be their oil.

And there are many different reasons that one route could potentially endanger a water supply while another route would have a far less likelihood despite both being close to water supplies. The EPA and Corp of Engineers has in fact signed off on this and they have both been under the Obama administration for the last 8 years.

Do you think that we should shut down all existing pipelines that go near any water supply?

Good point.

I just want the pipeline company to carry enough insurance to pay for All remediation and health consequences should a spill occur. And no ducking out with chapter 11 like the railline did with Lac Megantic. I don't understand how BP got away with not cleaning up the Gulf.

In my opinion, anything that has a major magnitude of potential environmental damage, be it a coal slag pit or a hog farm waste detention pond or a well or a railroad or a pipeline, needs to post a bond covering the maximum cost in case of environmental catastrophe. Should the worst happen, the federal government takes the full amount and immediately begins mitigation, with whatever is left over being returned to the company and/or its insurer. If a company cannot afford that bond, then it cannot afford that activity, period.

The time to negotiate the cost of cleanup is before it happens or after it's been cleaned up, not immediately after the catastrophe when we should be in full emergency response mode.

 

[Darwin333]

Trump personally owns stock in the pipeline company here. Don't worry he will order immediate resumption of construction within a day of being sworn in-in order to promote job growth, of course.

The pipeline is 95% complete. Does anyone truly think that it isn't going to get finished?

 

[Darwin333]

In my opinion, anything that has a major magnitude of potential environmental damage, be it a coal slag pit or a hog farm waste detention pond or a well or a railroad or a pipeline, needs to post a bond covering the maximum cost in case of environmental catastrophe. Should the worst happen, the federal government takes the full amount and immediately begins mitigation, with whatever is left over being returned to the company and/or its insurer. If a company cannot afford that bond, then it cannot afford that activity, period.

The time to negotiate the cost of cleanup is before it happens or after it's been cleaned up, not immediately after the catastrophe when we should be in full emergency response mode.

I definitely agree in principal but I think it would be rather difficult to estimate the maximum cost of something like that. Take Deepwater Horizon, that should have never happened with the safety measures in place. Sure the initial blowout was caused by human fuckups but all industry knowledge/experience up to that time said that the blowout preventers blind rams should have sealed the well. The rig still would have blown up and sank but the oil spill itself would have been very minor, probably more diesel fuel on the rig than oil from the well. So when drilling a well should the worst case scenario be every last drop of oil that is presumed to be retrievable from said well being released into the environment when pricing the bond? How about a pipeline, do we price it on the assumption that every single safety measure fails and a catastrophic leak goes undetected for weeks or months?

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of making them get a bond to ensure the cleanup gets paid for. Hell I have to get a bond on most of my construction projects to ensure that I will complete the job as specified. If I walk off the job or refuse to complete it for some non-legit reason the owner/architect can hit my bond and my bonding company pays to finish the project. The government, as well as private companies, also require bid bonds just to bid on their projects. So I definitely agree with some sort of "environmental bond", I'm just not sure if that would be possible if we priced them on a "absolutely worst case scenario". I'm not even sure if there is enough money out there to hold in reserve, per existing laws at least, to underwrite that kind of liability.

OTOH, if we instituted that today I guarantee there are thousands of miles of old ass pipelines whose products are vital that no company will bond and we see just how hard it is to build new ones.

 

[werepossum]

I definitely agree in principal but I think it would be rather difficult to estimate the maximum cost of something like that. Take Deepwater Horizon, that should have never happened with the safety measures in place. Sure the initial blowout was caused by human fuckups but all industry knowledge/experience up to that time said that the blowout preventers blind rams should have sealed the well. The rig still would have blown up and sank but the oil spill itself would have been very minor, probably more diesel fuel on the rig than oil from the well. So when drilling a well should the worst case scenario be every last drop of oil that is presumed to be retrievable from said well being released into the environment when pricing the bond? How about a pipeline, do we price it on the assumption that every single safety measure fails and a catastrophic leak goes undetected for weeks or months?

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of making them get a bond to ensure the cleanup gets paid for. Hell I have to get a bond on most of my construction projects to ensure that I will complete the job as specified. If I walk off the job or refuse to complete it for some non-legit reason the owner/architect can hit my bond and my bonding company pays to finish the project. The government, as well as private companies, also require bid bonds just to bid on their projects. So I definitely agree with some sort of "environmental bond", I'm just not sure if that would be possible if we priced them on a "absolutely worst case scenario". I'm not even sure if there is enough money out there to hold in reserve, per existing laws at least, to underwrite that kind of liability.

OTOH, if we instituted that today I guarantee there are thousands of miles of old ass pipelines whose products are vital that no company will bond and we see just how hard it is to build new ones.

I think the absolutely worst case scenario is when ALL safety mechana fail and the company must bring in outside resources. For a deepwater well, that means weeks at least of oil flowing into the ocean. For a pipeline, that means a leak not being detected until it is visually inspected - one reason I so dislike pipelines under water.

Your point about old pipelines being unbondable is spot-on though, and requiring bonds on new pipelines would tend to keep old pipelines in operation longer by raising the cost of replacement. Not everything I prefer from principle is the most practical solution, especially environmentally.

 

[JSt0rm]

The other nations would take their immense trade imbalances and use the profits to buy the American oil companies. Then when the time came to use our oil, that too would be their oil.


Good point.


In my opinion, anything that has a major magnitude of potential environmental damage, be it a coal slag pit or a hog farm waste detention pond or a well or a railroad or a pipeline, needs to post a bond covering the maximum cost in case of environmental catastrophe. Should the worst happen, the federal government takes the full amount and immediately begins mitigation, with whatever is left over being returned to the company and/or its insurer. If a company cannot afford that bond, then it cannot afford that activity, period.

The time to negotiate the cost of cleanup is before it happens or after it's been cleaned up, not immediately after the catastrophe when we should be in full emergency response mode.

nationalize the oil. It belongs to all of us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/11/oil-fund-norway-millionaires_n_4576887.html

^^^ This is what happens when you have a highly educated population. They vote for the correct people to guide their country.

Of course here in america we have conservatives who want to lay down their life for trump.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

nationalize the oil. It belongs to all of us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/11/oil-fund-norway-millionaires_n_4576887.html

^^^ This is what happens when you have a highly educated population. They vote for the correct people to guide their country.

Of course here in america we have conservatives who want to lay down their life for trump.

Yes, it's worked so well in Venezuela, let's just nationalize it, let's do healthcare too like they have in Venezuela. It's a socialist paradise!
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-12-blood-flies-agony-venezuela-hospital.html

 

[sdifox]

Yes, it's worked so well in Venezuela, let's just nationalize it, let's do healthcare too like they have in Venezuela. It's a socialist paradise!
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-12-blood-flies-agony-venezuela-hospital.html

If you are going to spend like a drunken sailor, no amount of income will help. So be more like Nordic countries and not like Venezuela.

 

[JSt0rm]

Yes, it's worked so well in Venezuela, let's just nationalize it, let's do healthcare too like they have in Venezuela. It's a socialist paradise!
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-12-blood-flies-agony-venezuela-hospital.html

You are why we cant have nice things.

 

[JSt0rm]

If you are going to spend like a drunken sailor, no amount of income will help. So be more like Nordic countries and not like Venezuela.

I love how they always bring out the worst examples of anything as if we are teetering on the edge of being the worst instead of striving to be the best. Like if this country was ruled by the coasts we would all be in a much better place. The middle and south of the country drags us down.

 

[sdifox]

I love how they always bring out the worst examples of anything as if we are teetering on the edge of being the worst instead of striving to be the best. Like if this country was ruled by the coasts we would all be in a much better place. The middle and south of the country drags us down.

That is.not entirely fair either. Truth is the 1% has too much power and money.

 

[JSt0rm]

That is.not entirely fair either. Truth is the 1% has too much power and money.

I should say the low iq people drag us down. We need better schools but without a intelligent family what can you do. Move to norway I guess.

 

[werepossum]

nationalize the oil. It belongs to all of us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/11/oil-fund-norway-millionaires_n_4576887.html

^^^ This is what happens when you have a highly educated population. They vote for the correct people to guide their country.

Of course here in america we have conservatives who want to lay down their life for trump.

Norway is certainly an example of socialism done correctly. It's also a very sparsely populated nation (in the lower 20% world wide) with incredible mineral wealth to exploit. As such, I suspect Norway is always going to be an outlier. If however you want, you can try immigrating to Norway so that you too can enjoy all the benefits of socialism done right.

 

[JSt0rm]

Norway is certainly an example of socialism done correctly. It's also a very sparsely populated nation (in the lower 20% world wide) with incredible mineral wealth to exploit. As such, I suspect Norway is always going to be an outlier. If however you want, you can try immigrating to Norway so that you too can enjoy all the benefits of socialism done right.

We have as much as they do per population. Socialism done right is not 100% socialism. They same with capitalism.

 

[FelixDeCat]

...

 

[sdifox]

A few war vets are heading to ND to defend the protesters. shit just got real.

http://m.democracynow.org/headlines/2016/11/29/47183

 

[Kazukian]

A few war vets are heading to ND to defend the protesters. shit just got real.

http://m.democracynow.org/headlines/2016/11/29/47183

I think the weather will be an interesting factor, hope they bring their long underwear.

 

[sdifox]

I think the weather will be an interesting factor, hope they bring their long underwear.

Advaced unit was already clearing snow for the main force.

 

[JSt0rm]

Define socialism "done right".

Please, comrade jstorm, tell us about your socialist paradise and the 50-60% tax rates that it will take to pay for it.

its 45% in norway. How much are you paying now?

 

[FelixDeCat]

...

 

[Kazukian]

Advaced unit was already clearing snow for the main force.

This is going to be fun to watch.

https://weather.com/news/weather/video/arctic-plunge-on-the-way-for-much-of-nation

 

[Darwin333]

nationalize the oil. It belongs to all of us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/11/oil-fund-norway-millionaires_n_4576887.html

^^^ This is what happens when you have a highly educated population. They vote for the correct people to guide their country.

Of course here in america we have conservatives who want to lay down their life for trump.

Yeah but you want to leave our oil in the ground so under your ideals we would nationalize it and then send even more money overseas since we would use little or no domestic oil. You can't use the economic argument and the "leave it all in the ground until we use all of everyone else's" and the "we will make way more money if we nationalize our oil" argument 10 posts apart.