Cubans told to shun foreigners

[Steeplerot]

yeah first hand knowledge versuses buying the corprate medias biased smears...get a grip.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Stunt
So what?...everyone comes to bash communism and socialism...but don't want to learn about the country and the people?
Even for those what want to take this debate down to communism vs. democracy...
I'd be interested to hear your suggestions on another central american country with education, healthcare, and life expectancy close to cuba's standards. This is your chance to give examples of why a regime change is good for this island nation.

Why
Why Else
More reasons
More yet
Just a snippit of abuses
But wait, there's more!
Maybe some human rights violations?
And a snippit from that for you:

IV. CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS

A. DISCRIMINATION ON POLITICAL GROUNDS RELATIVE TO THE LACK OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, ASSOCIATION AND ASSEMBLY

15. The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has referred in previous reports to the systematic practice of the Cuban State of discriminating against citizens under its jurisdiction for political reasons and the lack of freedom of expression, association, and assembly. During the period covered by this report, the practice of the Cuban authorities has not changed, nor have the constitutional and criminal provisions on which they rely in so acting. In other words, the harassment, accusations, adoption of disciplinary measures and prison sentences for persons who peacefully display their disagreement with the political regime in place have persisted. Such harassment is directed especially at groups geared to supporting human rights, including trade union rights, or political activity. These groups are characterized by their decision to use only peaceful means in pressing their grievances, despite which the authorities consider their activities illegal, and they are persecuted in various ways. The criminal offenses most commonly used to characterize these persons' activities include "enemy propaganda," "contempt" (desacato), "unlawful association," "clandestine possession of printed matter," "posing a danger," "rebellion," and "acts against state security."

Look at the happy Cubans FLEE THEIR HOMELAND!

Braving the open sea for a chance at LIBERTY...

How about some of Castro's lies?

So there you have it, just a few of the many, many reasons why Castro should be deposed, Communism and Socialism should be banned and AMERICANS SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Donate to the Victims of Communism Memorial Fund so that the millions who have been MURDERED by this evil system might be remembered, and that future generations might avoid the same mistakes.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/
totally free and just about as good as photoshop there Stunt.

I recommend the GIMP to folks who need basic image editing capability but don't have a lot of cash. It's not even *close* to the robustness of Photoshop, but then, not many people *need* that level of power, either.

Jason

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Stunt
So what?...everyone comes to bash communism and socialism...but don't want to learn about the country and the people?
Even for those what want to take this debate down to communism vs. democracy...
I'd be interested to hear your suggestions on another central american country with education, healthcare, and life expectancy close to cuba's standards. This is your chance to give examples of why a regime change is good for this island nation.

The debate isn't "Communism Vs. Democracy" it's about Communism Vs. Liberty, or if you want to get to the REAL root of it, Collectivism Vs. Individualism.

Your pictures are very nice, but they certainly don't tell the whole story, and neither does your several day vacation. It's plain enough to anyone who thinks a little bit that a tourist, on whom the country *greatly* depends for money, is treated a whole lot better and sees all the bright sides of the country than its native citizens.

Jason

Ok buddy.
I am not attempting to be a know it all.
I am just presenting what i saw. I was in an area where there was little to no tourism...everyone kept to the resort. We were one of very few ppl that actually went to go see the people. We talked to them but they had nothing to gain from us. If anything they would want to portray how they truely felt to visitors. That did not happen. They are very aware people and well informed, more so than you might think.
Sure they give up liberties, but for the most part it is for the betterment of the society.
For example, smoking weed is a criminal offense of 40 years. this effectively makes the drug non-existant. Also sending people to jail against their will for freedom of speech, while i disagree, is no worse than what the US is doing with middle eastern detainees.

I'll take my seven day excursion over your misperceptions anyday.

 

[StageLeft]

Sure they give up liberties, but for the most part it is for the betterment of the society.

I have to take issue with that. They do it for castro's perception of the betterment of society. Some Cubans may be happy. Some may even like the system, but most don't. Clearly people are not risking prison and drowning because they like how it is. The people are incredibly poor. Many live in slums.

Of course being jailed for saying something against one's government is far more egregious an offense on humanity than jailing somebody because they have a real wish to harm the government of its people in a physical manner (and I disagree with keeping people jailed without charging them, but the motivations behind the two are totally different).

Look to cuba and you'll find many people who want the overall system changed. They hate it. How many Americans truly want the system changed? Not many. Repubs and libs detest one another, but they almost always endorse the system in which they fight.

I don't think enough people appreciate the lovliness of being able to say whats on one's mind knowing that it's illegal for that thought to land them in jail (unless, of course, it's a thought that has an ultimate end towards violence or breaking the law).

 

[Beowulf]

Good to see my thread still going

Stunt: Since you went to the Melia Cayo Santa Maria was the town you went into in the Villa Clara province? Did you see sugar canes? Well anyways its good to hear that the people are nice and I can see how'd they wouldn't mind socialist economy being from the campo.I've been to Santa Clara several times myself seeing as thats where my father is from.Cuba has tons of smart ppl the bad part is most ppl will never use their education to fullest like my aunt who has a law degree(to many ppl with degrees and no job for) and works in a spanish owned hotel in Varadero.

Now to about the freedom of speech(none in Cuba) being like the US treatment of middle eastern detainees is a messed up way to look at it.I never seen a person in Cuba inciting a new revolution just expressing how Castro is a liar and enjoys the riches for himself.Castro was born to farmers and like a true guajiro he has Cuba as his farm to do his bidding.

Anyways anyone who wants to read more about the past and present of Cuba check out Huber Matos(former major of the july 26 movement/revolution now exile) "Como llego la noche".Just started reading it and it's quite interesting good man to denounce Castro sucks he got 25 years of torture.

 

[StageLeft]

Oh yeah, when we were there we went to a shopping mall and I remember how all of the posters and t-shirts and everything had pictures of either castro or this other dude (not sure of his name) on them. Kind of a bit like all of the posters that hang in syria (I think I was reading time recently) of the big dudes there, or saddam in Iraq.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah, when we were there we went to a shopping mall and I remember how all of the posters and t-shirts and everything had pictures of either castro or this other dude (not sure of his name) on them. Kind of a bit like all of the posters that hang in syria (I think I was reading time recently) of the big dudes there, or saddam in Iraq.

Or like this one?

 

[Stunt]

First of all, the cuban economy would be booming if the US didnt sanction the hell out of it, and convince others to do the same.
At first the cuban people were jailed for being vocal. But people learned and stopped. I think the number of persecuted nowadays is far less as people accept the way things are.
Again, cubans enjoy helping their fellow man, just as in scandinavia, this is done on their own terms...they do know what capitalism is...i asked them.
They feel their system works and everyone gets healthcare, educatoin, food and shelter. Now they are nowhere near our standards. But that's all they know of, they are no mad because they don't have internet or luxury clothes, they are content with what they have. Of course i would love to see them have what i have, and i think they could do that with increased trade.
The US is causing their misfortunes, you cannot criticize them for wanting to be social.

 

[Steeplerot]

The cold war is over folks welcome to the 21st century join the rest of the world in coming to realize cuba isn't our enemy of anything.

 

[Stunt]

Castro and Che posters...yeah they are around...but not uncommon to see tv ads or "news spots" with our leaders.
what's the difference between a poster and a broadcast on all our tv stations?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah, when we were there we went to a shopping mall and I remember how all of the posters and t-shirts and everything had pictures of either castro or this other dude (not sure of his name) on them. Kind of a bit like all of the posters that hang in syria (I think I was reading time recently) of the big dudes there, or saddam in Iraq.

Or like this one?

No

At first the cuban people were jailed for being vocal. But people learned and stopped. I think the number of persecuted nowadays is far less as people accept the way things are.

And that's good? I didn't see anybody fight in the Iraq videos before having their heads cut off, but it doesn't mean they didn't like it.

But that's all they know of, they are no mad because they don't have internet or luxury clothes, they are content with what they have.

How can they be content with if if people are still going to prison and still drowning out of a desperation to leave?

The US not causing their problems. It is contributing to it with its bogus trade block, but the Cubans are contributing to it as well because they are the ones living in that society.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Or like this one?

Originally posted by: Skoorb
No

[/quote]
Same thing! lol thanks skoorb, almost funnily the same if I didn't have to live here.

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by: Stunt
First of all, the cuban economy would be booming if the US didnt sanction the hell out of it, and convince others to do the same.
At first the cuban people were jailed for being vocal. But people learned and stopped. I think the number of persecuted nowadays is far less as people accept the way things are.
Again, cubans enjoy helping their fellow man, just as in scandinavia, this is done on their own terms...they do know what capitalism is...i asked them.
They feel their system works and everyone gets healthcare, educatoin, food and shelter. Now they are nowhere near our standards. But that's all they know of, they are no mad because they don't have internet or luxury clothes, they are content with what they have. Of course i would love to see them have what i have, and i think they could do that with increased trade.
The US is causing their misfortunes, you cannot criticize them for wanting to be social.

Wow so being vocal is wrong,if it was wrong alot of ppl here should be jailed even including me.Now its cool you went to Cuba and met what 30-50 Cubans about the average in one block at Cienfuegos.I really find this as a tough pill to swallow actually having been born and raised there especially with medical problems not being able to treat till I go to Miami.To say the US is the cause of the misfortunes is wrong Castro is the cause and for years he had USSR to feed him(Russians were mad when they found out how much they wasted on Cuba).Canada,Spain even US foods(regardless of embargo) have been doing trades with Cuba now with the money Castro makes off the resale of oil giving to him from Chavez he should be doing more.The problem isn't he can't do its he won't do the country will have to conform itself in the name of the revolution something that Cuba didn't before 1959.Someone who goes on vacation or who studies books on Cuba doesn't notice the big picture it's sad but my views(15 years of life experience) are tossed aside for views that fall in line with wha ppl want to hear.I accepted the fact as everyne has in Cuba we'd laugh to hear Robert Redford came to visit Castro in Cuba we'd joke because thats all we had our humanity everything else was removed.

 

[Stunt]

Castro represents the people, this is why there was a revolution.
It's not good that people are being jailed for their views, but this rarely happens now. Similar to having laws against drugs, everyone knows they are there and the punishment is harsh so they avoid it. No matter if you as a society think it is wrong or right, it's a rule the sitizens must abide by and they do.
The reason they leave is not because they are too selfish to be communal so they try the trip to america. The believe it is the land of opportunity and wealth, the irony of this is that they come to the US and get a similar standard of living with no healthcare and little education, maybe even exploited by their employers. Good thing they have the freedom of speech so they can say how much their life sucks now as well.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Same thing almost funnily the same.

Insane. Truly, the fact that people can't see a marked and chasm-like difference between the US political system and that of a communist regime that imprisons those who oppose it is not just ludicrous but also almost unfathamable to me. Not to be dismissive, but I don't see anything else really worth continuing on this matter.

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah, when we were there we went to a shopping mall and I remember how all of the posters and t-shirts and everything had pictures of either castro or this other dude (not sure of his name) on them. Kind of a bit like all of the posters that hang in syria (I think I was reading time recently) of the big dudes there, or saddam in Iraq.

They should have Camilo Cienfuegos shirts but then again Castro had him killed when he didn't want to support communism.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Beowulf

Originally posted by: Stunt
First of all, the cuban economy would be booming if the US didnt sanction the hell out of it, and convince others to do the same.
At first the cuban people were jailed for being vocal. But people learned and stopped. I think the number of persecuted nowadays is far less as people accept the way things are.
Again, cubans enjoy helping their fellow man, just as in scandinavia, this is done on their own terms...they do know what capitalism is...i asked them.
They feel their system works and everyone gets healthcare, educatoin, food and shelter. Now they are nowhere near our standards. But that's all they know of, they are no mad because they don't have internet or luxury clothes, they are content with what they have. Of course i would love to see them have what i have, and i think they could do that with increased trade.
The US is causing their misfortunes, you cannot criticize them for wanting to be social.

Wow so being vocal is wrong,if it was wrong alot of ppl here should be jailed even including me.Now its cool you went to Cuba and met what 30-50 Cubans about the average in one block at Cienfuegos.I really find this as a tough pill to swallow actually having been born and raised there especially with medical problems not being able to treat till I go to Miami.To say the US is the cause of the misfortunes is wrong Castro is the cause and for years he had USSR to feed him(Russians were mad when they found out how much they wasted on Cuba).Canada,Spain even US foods(regardless of embargo) have been doing trades with Cuba now with the money Castro makes off the resale of oil giving to him from Chavez he should be doing more.The problem isn't he can't do its he won't do the country will have to conform itself in the name of the revolution something that Cuba didn't before 1959.Someone who goes on vacation or who studies books on Cuba doesn't notice the big picture it's sad but my views(15 years of life experience) are tossed aside for views that fall in line with wha ppl want to hear.I accepted the fact as everyne has in Cuba we'd laugh to hear Robert Redford came to visit Castro in Cuba we'd joke because thats all we had our humanity everything else was removed.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with democracy...i like the way we have it.
But i'm asking you now if the people in cuba, ones who didnt have an outspoken father or have had the opportunity to see the US...
Do they as a society hate their way of life?...or do they just accept it and live within the laws and restrictoins they have been given...just as we are (laws, taxes, etc)

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Castro represents the people, this is why there was a revolution.
It's not good that people are being jailed for their views, but this rarely happens now. Similar to having laws against drugs, everyone knows they are there and the punishment is harsh so they avoid it. No matter if you as a society think it is wrong or right, it's a rule the sitizens must abide by and they do.
The reason they leave is not because they are too selfish to be communal so they try the trip to america. The believe it is the land of opportunity and wealth, the irony of this is that they come to the US and get a similar standard of living with no healthcare and little education, maybe even exploited by their employers. Good thing they have the freedom of speech so they can say how much their life sucks now as well.

Castro represented the era and ideology of the outbreaks between Batista and students wanting reforms.He was a man viewed as someone who could fight and bring democracy and he didn't he installed himself into power.Cuban's are exploited in Cuba guess you didn't hear of the sugar cane era that was a bust.Cuban's must conform with what they have because they won't have anything else.If you can live with the least and support being stripped of your idea's and thoughts then its no problem.

There's plenty of rich Cuban's and political figures in the US most Cuban's who came during the peter pan and liberty flights era became someone.In Miami,the Cubans own tons of political capital and rich figures in this town and abroad.I wonder how many of Cubans in Miami will say their life sucks though we should start a poll.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Same thing almost funnily the same.

Insane. Truly, the fact that people can't see a marked and chasm-like difference between the US political system and that of a communist regime that imprisons those who oppose it is not just ludicrous but also almost unfathamable to me. Not to be dismissive, but I don't see anything else really worth continuing on this matter.

Man the pictures were the exact same...
We are all forced to follow the rules and environment our dictator sets out.
And yes...we do for the most part have a dictator. the strongest democracies in the world are engineered to create a majority such that one person or group has unparalleled power in government.
Whether it be a 2 part system with electoral college, or a first past the post electoral format.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Same thing almost funnily the same.

Insane. Truly, the fact that people can't see a marked and chasm-like difference between the US political system and that of a communist regime that imprisons those who oppose it is not just ludicrous but also almost unfathamable to me. Not to be dismissive, but I don't see anything else really worth continuing on this matter.

You would be right 10 years ago Skoorb. Things have changed in Cuba is all people are saying in here.
America is lagging in our foreign policy and emulating what Cuba once was.
it is time to get over the bay of pigs, the people who ran from their country at the time lost, The CIA's little assasinations failed. The people who left their country lost in the ghettos of miami, (there always are exceptions to the rule) castro's communism lost, but in the end the people won and are improving their lot. there is NO reason to shun the Cubans anymore. we can try to encourage more freedoms but killing them economiclly is bad for both neighbors becasue they snubbed us 40-50 years ago.

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Beowulf

Originally posted by: Stunt
First of all, the cuban economy would be booming if the US didnt sanction the hell out of it, and convince others to do the same.
At first the cuban people were jailed for being vocal. But people learned and stopped. I think the number of persecuted nowadays is far less as people accept the way things are.
Again, cubans enjoy helping their fellow man, just as in scandinavia, this is done on their own terms...they do know what capitalism is...i asked them.
They feel their system works and everyone gets healthcare, educatoin, food and shelter. Now they are nowhere near our standards. But that's all they know of, they are no mad because they don't have internet or luxury clothes, they are content with what they have. Of course i would love to see them have what i have, and i think they could do that with increased trade.
The US is causing their misfortunes, you cannot criticize them for wanting to be social.

Wow so being vocal is wrong,if it was wrong alot of ppl here should be jailed even including me.Now its cool you went to Cuba and met what 30-50 Cubans about the average in one block at Cienfuegos.I really find this as a tough pill to swallow actually having been born and raised there especially with medical problems not being able to treat till I go to Miami.To say the US is the cause of the misfortunes is wrong Castro is the cause and for years he had USSR to feed him(Russians were mad when they found out how much they wasted on Cuba).Canada,Spain even US foods(regardless of embargo) have been doing trades with Cuba now with the money Castro makes off the resale of oil giving to him from Chavez he should be doing more.The problem isn't he can't do its he won't do the country will have to conform itself in the name of the revolution something that Cuba didn't before 1959.Someone who goes on vacation or who studies books on Cuba doesn't notice the big picture it's sad but my views(15 years of life experience) are tossed aside for views that fall in line with wha ppl want to hear.I accepted the fact as everyne has in Cuba we'd laugh to hear Robert Redford came to visit Castro in Cuba we'd joke because thats all we had our humanity everything else was removed.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with democracy...i like the way we have it.
But i'm asking you now if the people in cuba, ones who didnt have an outspoken father or have had the opportunity to see the US...
Do they as a society hate their way of life?...or do they just accept it and live within the laws and restrictoins they have been given...just as we are (laws, taxes, etc)

You have to understand Castro has outlived many of the folks who remember Cuba before so lots of ppl have grown to accept they are powerless and keep living.It's not about seeing the US or not its about being forced to live a certain way and accept it because otherwise its going to be even rougher.You can't vote for a president and know he won't last more than 8 years max,I personally had accepted the way I'd live forever I didn't see a way out of Cuba but it happened and its pretty cool to see this and remember that.

I will always love Cuba it's just going to take sometime till Castro dies and I'm able to see my whole family again.

 

[Stunt]

define freedom of speech?...not to denounce it...but i'm trying to figure out what cubans are really missing out on.
lets assume they are socially inclined and want a communal society...this is what i got out of them.
they can still in private discuss politics, they are very well informed on world issues, and discuss them regularly...mind you they are in the privacy of their own home...but that is all i do as well.
Maybe you can help me with this.

 

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Same thing almost funnily the same.

Insane. Truly, the fact that people can't see a marked and chasm-like difference between the US political system and that of a communist regime that imprisons those who oppose it is not just ludicrous but also almost unfathamable to me. Not to be dismissive, but I don't see anything else really worth continuing on this matter.

You would be right 10 years ago Skoorb. Things have changed in Cuba is all people are saying in here.
America is lagging in our foreign policy and emulating what Cuba once was.
it is time to get over the bay of pigs, the people who ran from their country at the time lost, The CIA's little assasinations failed. The people who left their country lost in the ghettos of miami, (there always are exceptions to the rule) castro's communism lost, but in the end the people won and are improving their lot. there is NO reason to shun the Cubans anymore. we can try to encourage more freedoms but killing them economiclly is bad for both neighbors becasue they snubbed us 40-50 years ago.

There's reasons for Cubans to shun foreigners according to the government?

 

[Steeplerot]

Well don't piss on the people trying to help normalize stuff. Things have picked up and there are a lot of good people worldwide trying to educate the people stuck in the past.
I hope you can go see your family whenever you want soon no restrictions.
Or would you rather hold your people down still becasue of the castro boogeyman the US media makes him out to be still? He is not going to make it much longer. Why wait to normalize?
they have already shown great strides toward freedom.