Cryptocoin Mining?

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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
w00t! Just bolstered my mining farm with 4 BFL Singles. Pretty much doubled my hashrate o_O
It ended up being ~$575 per BFL Single. Took just a hair under 2 months for me to receive my 4 Singles.

Wow, serious at $599 for each? Baller! :) I was reading that it took 60-70 days wait list. I am guessing you plan on trading them up for next generation ASICs?

From BTL's websites, I am assuming the current singles can be linked together to each other or can a USB/Hub port splitter work for that? Apparently you can trade a Single for 8 Jalapeno units. I wonder if the Jalapeno units will be linkable?

BTW, did you have to pay upfront to BTL for the units 2 months ago when you first ordered?

I was thinking about ordering one but with 2 months turn-around time, I am hesitant since by the time it comes in, I'll have to trade it in for the new units, assuming they launch on time in October.
 
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thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,871
2,076
126
It can still be a problem, depending on your number of cards and aggression. Turning down the aggression can help cure it.

Thanks for the tip. I turned down the aggression in GuiMiner and that has reduced the CPU usage considerably.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
2
76
wow had to turn on my gpus off in my office.......in my xfire rig, both runing when I am in here using the machine.....gets too warm
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Whats the point of getting involved with this with a GPU if people are just buying expensive equipment for mining.

Kind of pointless then.

Not really. There are probably at least still solid 2.5-3 months left assuming next generation ASICs arrive in October 2012. The current versions are not that much faster which hasn't affected the difficulty rate enough to obsolete GPU mining, yet. 3 months of mining on say a 7970 card will generate $150-260 depending on how often you mine, paying for a lot of the card's value. That makes AMD cards a much cheaper solution right now. The fact that HD7950 can overclock past GTX680 speeds for $310-320 and that 1000-1100mhz HD7970's have fallen to $420-440 makes it a bonus too. So really not only do you save $, but you get great performance in games too.
 
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ensign_lee

Senior member
Feb 9, 2011
401
0
0
So overall, is the only disadvantage to using a pool such as Slush's vs. a PPS pool the fact that your payout is not always consistent day to day?

If your mining output is not consistent. i.e. you turn it off from time to time or your internet goes out, etc, then you are better with a pay per share system.

Why? Let's take the following example. Your computer runs hashes for slush for 8 hours, and then you turn it off.

In the next 9 hours slush's pool finds 3 blocks. The first one took 30 minutes, the second one took another hour, the last one took 7.5 hours.

Your participation in this then would have been half an hour on the first block, one hour on the 2nd, and 6.5 hours on the third.

You will get paid your propoortional share for the first two blocks, but will get paid 0, that's right ZERO for the last one. Even though your computer worked on it for 6.5 hours.

Why? Because you quit (turned off the computer) before the last one was found.

So if you are going to intermittently turn on your miners, you should definitely stay away from slush.

All that being said, if your share submission is constant, slush should pay you out more over the long term. 2% fees vs 5% fees and all, plus the variance should all even out in the end.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
Wow, serious at $599 for each? Baller! :) I was reading that it took 60-70 days wait list. I am guessing you plan on trading them up for next generation ASICs?

From BTL's websites, I am assuming the current singles can be linked together to each other or can a USB/Hub port splitter work for that? Apparently you can trade a Single for 8 Jalapeno units. I wonder if the Jalapeno units will be linkable?

BTW, did you have to pay upfront to BTL for the units 2 months ago when you first ordered?

I was thinking about ordering one but with 2 months turn-around time, I am hesitant since by the time it comes in, I'll have to trade it in for the new units, assuming they launch on time in October.
Yeah, had to pay upfront, but wasn't nervous as quite a few other people had already done it :) They took a little longer to arrive that I thought they would though.

Each Single only has a mini-USB port, but you can chain up a bunch of them to a regular USB hub. Getting them setup is easy enough - just run BFL's EasyMiner to figure out which bitstream will work reliably in your ambient temps / cooling setup, then switch over to your favorite miner to use it (for cgiminer, just use -S COM3 -S COM4, etc.)

As far as the trade-in thing, it's a topic of fierce debate over at bitcointalk. It would be great if I could trade 1x Single for the equivalent number of Jalapenos.
 

krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
2,873
0
0
As far as the trade-in thing, it's a topic of fierce debate over at bitcointalk. It would be great if I could trade 1x Single for the equivalent number of Jalapenos.

I believe BFL's press release stated that you could not trade in for more than 50% of your new purchase, but that they'd offer you full trade-in value. Hence the Single trades in for 8 Jalapenos but you have to pay for 4.

Has anyone pre-ordered those btw? I'm seriously thinking of getting my order in now so I'm higher on the list as they ship them out.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
I believe BFL's press release stated that you could not trade in for more than 50% of your new purchase, but that they'd offer you full trade-in value. Hence the Single trades in for 8 Jalapenos but you have to pay for 4.

Has anyone pre-ordered those btw? I'm seriously thinking of getting my order in now so I'm higher on the list as they ship them out.

Ya, I am having trouble deciding what to do. If I get the $599 single now and trade it for 8 Jalapenos later, and if you say I'd have to pay for 4 of them, then I'd spend $599 for current single + 4 Jalapenos (to get 8 in total) x $149 = $1195.

But the New SC goes for $1,299.

8 Jalapenos = 3.5GH/sec x 8 = 28 GH/sec
1 New SC = 40 GB/sec (+ 42% faster)

Also, it'll take up less space than 8 Jalapenos I imagine. Doesn't sound like it's worth it to trade up for the Jalapenos. Doesn't it make sense to just trade-up the current SC to the new SC then? But then I am afraid if I buy the current single, it'll take 60-70 days to ship and then it's already October, so what's the point? Might as well pre-order the new Single now and skip the current one altogether.

What are your thoughts?
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,871
2,076
126
So I managed to modify my DD Maze4 GPU block to fit the 7950. Running nice and cool now at 1100MHz core/1.037v (stock volts for this card) at 50C while bitcoin mining. My TF3 does have the 7970 PCB.

7950.jpg


I am getting about 550MH/s with low aggression using the "-w 256 -f15" flags in GuiMiner. Sound about right?
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
Ya, I am having trouble deciding what to do. If I get the $599 single now and trade it for 8 Jalapenos later, and if you say I'd have to pay for 4 of them, then I'd spend $599 for current single + 4 Jalapenos (to get 8 in total) x $149 = $1195.

But the New SC goes for $1,299.

8 Jalapenos = 3.5GH/sec x 8 = 28 GH/sec
1 New SC = 40 GB/sec (+ 42% faster)

Also, it'll take up less space than 8 Jalapenos I imagine. Doesn't sound like it's worth it to trade up for the Jalapenos. Doesn't it make sense to just trade-up the current SC to the new SC then? But then I am afraid if I buy the current single, it'll take 60-70 days to ship and then it's already October, so what's the point? Might as well pre-order the new Single now and skip the current one altogether.

What are your thoughts?

It would likely be better just to order the ASIC single outright. That being said BFL doesn't hit their target dates and ship times. Also, I waited to see other people mining on their singles before I bought mine. My risk tolerance is pretty low so confidence a product was real and could deliver was important to me.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
So, how does everyone feel about butterfly labs "SC" products? I know there has been a lot of discussion already, but I'm bringing it back up because I am on the virge of placing a pre-order. The only thing holding me back is the feeling that it could be some elaborate scam. It just feels very suspicious since they only accept payment in bitcoins or wire transfer, non-reversible methods. If they are a legitimate business why wouldn't they accept credit cards or paypal or such?

I mean, I don't have any serious reasons to suspect them of running a scam, but risking $1200+ makes me more wary then I am when it comes to usual "shady purchases" which might be for products costing $20-$40.
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
So, how does everyone feel about butterfly labs "SC" products? I know there has been a lot of discussion already, but I'm bringing it back up because I am on the virge of placing a pre-order. The only thing holding me back is the feeling that it could be some elaborate scam. It just feels very suspicious since they only accept payment in bitcoins or wire transfer, non-reversible methods. If they are a legitimate business why wouldn't they accept credit cards or paypal or such?

I mean, I don't have any serious reasons to suspect them of running a scam, but risking $1200+ makes me more wary then I am when it comes to usual "shady purchases" which might be for products costing $20-$40.

They accept bitcoins first because it lends to the legitimacy of the currency. The community kind of demanded it. Dwolla and Paypal payment are coming soon. They have refunded several SC orders already if it makes you feel anymore confident.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
so what is the break even point on $/kwh??

Even if hardware costs kept constant (which they don't--the cost of hashing power is continually changing and hardware also keeps depreciating, so factor that into your costs), that number is constantly changing because bitcoin mining is self-correcting: only 50 coins (soon to be 25 coins, starting in December 2012) are produced each 10 minutes, no matter how much hashing power is in the system. Imagine a magic goose that lays 50 golden eggs per day. No matter how many people are lining up to get eggs, there will never be more than 50 eggs per day. The more people crowding the goose, the less each person gets. Likewise, it doesn't matter if there are only 10 miners, each with a HD5770, or 1000000000000 miners, each with a pair of 5970s; the rate of generating bitcoins is the same: 50 coins per 10 minutes, meaning 7200 coins per day.

The earlier you got in, the less competition there was, and the easier it was to mine coins. (The first guy to mine coins had a monopoly and got 50 coins every 10 minutes!) But now, with people encouraging ever-increasing numbers of people to buy ever-increasing powerful GPUs and specially-built FPGA/ASIC hardware, the difficulty is sky-high and going higher.

People encouraging others to mine = higher difficulty. People buying and using FPGAs and special-purpose devices built specifically for bitcoin mining (ASICs) = higher difficulty. A single ASIC mini-rig can do the work of hundreds or thousands of GPUs. I don't think many people realize just how dramatic difficulty will change with the addition of just a few ASIC mini rigs. Imagine difficulty quadrupling overnight. That would be the effect of the first batch of ASICs being shipped out and turned on. The second, third, and subsequent batches will drive up difficulty even more (I've seen multiple reasonable estimates of ~20x difficulty, yes TWENTY times higher difficulty after the first month of ASIC shipments, and even higher after the second month of ASIC shipments) and eventually make it impossible for GPUs to compete, just like how GPU mining has obsoleted CPU mining because GPU mining is so much more efficient.

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-ever.png

Some fools think that mining difficulty drives price, thinking that if difficulty rises, so will the dollar-to-bitcoin exchange rate. That isn't true. Bitcoin has been around for years, and the total number of coins already mined is over 8 million. Each day's addition of 7200 coins (soon to be 3600 coins) is negligible. What really drives price at this point is demand.

Demand is volatile. If Silk Road (an online gray/black market using bitcoins as currency) goes down, for instance, that will have waaaay more impact on prices than some latecomer miners' behaviors. If the FBI decides to attack the choke points of bitcoin, that may choke demand even more, because it'd be harder to convert dollars into coins. (Bitcoin is NOT as impervious to attack as some fanatical true believers think it is; you can still attack exchange points, like banks leaning on Paxum. Imagine a situation where Dwolla refuses to take part in any dollar-BTC exchanges anymore, and nobody else steps up either because the FBI and DOJ threaten them with shutdown. MtGox is beyond the reach of the US Govt, but Dwolla and all Dwolla-like entities are vulnerable to government interference.)

Even if we assume that bitcoin actually survives for another year, what happens when more people realize that bitcoin is not good for commerce due to the lengthy verification time? Unless there is a dominant, secure, trustworthy instant-credit-debit bitcoin company out there, 10 minutes or more is a long time. A bitcoin-like system that acts, say, 100 times more quickly, would be more useful for actual commerce.

Supply is also volatile but less so due to the fact that over 8 million coins have already been mined. And if supply on the market does change, it's due to old timer miners, not newcomer miners. There are a lot of miners and bitcoin enthusiasts out there who mined for a lot longer, a lot earlier than you did, or who bought bitcoins early on for pennies per coin. When they decide to cash out thousands of coins at a time, that moves the market way more than any of the latecomer miners.

Btw, if you are so sure that bitcoin prices will go up, then it's more profitable to invest directly into bitcoins themselves and not buy mining hardware. In real life, who makes more profit per dollar invested: timber/mining/hardware companies, or investment banks/private equity funds/hedge funds/etc.? Same thing with bitcoins: smaller, less risky profits to miners (who can sell their equipment if bitcoin crashes, except that FPGAs/ASICs may have little value), and larger, riskier profits to those who purchase bitcoins directly.

TL;DR version:

Don't think that difficulty will remain constant when doing your profitability forecasts, especially since mining difficulty has increased for the last several months and will likely keep increasing as more and more people mine with faster and faster hardware. Once purpose-built ASIC miners come out (as early as October), that will increase difficulty by a factor of 10-20 in the first few weeks alone, and even more after that. Plus, bitcoin generation halves in December 2012. And for every person you encourage to mine, you decrease your own mining profits, especially if that person then tells 10 other people, who then tell 10 other people.... (Despite this, you guys keep bumping this thread up anyway, lol.) And don't expect price to keep going up; price may drive mining investment to some degree due to the lunatics out there willing to gamble big money on something as risky as bitcoin mining, but mining difficulty does not drive price.
 
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WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
is a pcie x16 running at x4 going to affect mining hash rate at all?
Not at all. The secondary PCI-E 16x slots on my mining mobos are all 4x electrical.
Most folks even use physical 16x / electrical 1x ribbon risers without any problems.

Mining candy :p

bfl_singles_007.jpg
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
2
76
yeah I figured! since the memory is doing NOTHING it should be pretty low bandwidth

hell I have a spare 1x on this one mobo I could use with an adapter I suppose

thats a pretty slick setup playa
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
Actually, that's still kinda ugly. I had just wired four BFL Singles to a Corsair 500CX V2 and was testing it to see if it would go boom :p

The final setup is much neater with the wires tidied up.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Not at all. The secondary PCI-E 16x slots on my mining mobos are all 4x electrical.
Most folks even use physical 16x / electrical 1x ribbon risers without any problems.

Mining candy :p

Nice! Are you going to trade those 4 for the 2 new Single SC's? You'll go from 3.2GHash/sec to 80GHash/sec if the specs live up to the expectations. :eek:

Couldn't you just lay the 4 of them on the ground next to each other with the top vent facing upward? Or do they need a lot of ventilation? Do they have fans inside or just passive heatsinks?
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
Not at all. The secondary PCI-E 16x slots on my mining mobos are all 4x electrical.
Most folks even use physical 16x / electrical 1x ribbon risers without any problems.

Mining candy :p

bfl_singles_007.jpg

You were having issues with using the normal or faster bitstreams right? You shouldn't mount your singles sideways like that. Heatpipes don't work well when they are mounted 90 degrees from where they were designed to be oriented.

Also, how about these bitcoins being > $10.50. Supposedly bitcoins are supply constrained atm. No one is selling. Someone has to dump what they are sitting on me thinks.
 
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Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,097
644
126
Also, how about these bitcoins being > $10.50. Supposedly bitcoins are supply constrained atm. No one is selling. Someone has to dump what they are sitting on me thinks.

Doing my part. Just sold $280 worth of bitcoins. :D