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Critical Race Theory Is The Left’s QAnon

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rommelrommel

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 2002
2,936
523
136
Agree. Exposing the weaknesses in CRT is way more effective than banning it. Banning it gives the proponents ammunition. In many cases, just listening to CRT adherents is the best counter argument. Many of their prescriptions are obviously absurd and bad.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,743
9,842
136
...

I don't agree with banning anything, all ideas should be subjected to public discourse , taught and freely vetted from all sides. If it's bunk,then it will work its own way out of the system one way or another.
Uh, how's that working out so far?
 
Nov 8, 2012
19,728
4,436
136
I have mixed feelings on CRT. On one hand, it is at its core an anti-liberal philosophy that rejects liberal (with a small l) ideals of meritocracy under the presumption that due to white power structures, there is no meritocracy at all, which comes off as sort of circular.

I don't agree with banning anything, all ideas should be subjected to public discourse , taught and freely vetted from all sides. If it's bunk,then it will work its own way out of the system one way or another.
Debate is entirely reasonable. Having questionable theories is entirely reasonable. Teaching them to grade-school kids is not. That is indoctrination.

I have absolutely no problem with people talking and debating these theories in a college-elective based class or debate.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
13,126
8,162
136
I disagree. It's simply an alternative take on history, the likes of which are made all the time. Maybe some parts of it are wrong, but who cares? Things in historical analysis are wrong all the time.

The idea that liberals shouldn't publish things because they will be seized upon by the right in some sort of bad way kind of ignores the fact that if it wasn't the 1619 project it would be something else - they don't actually care what the topic is.

We shouldn't let the irrationality of the political opposition censor people from publishing things.
I don't see it that way, as just another alternative take. Alternative takes are like "alternative facts." I don't like politicized history. I don't like teaching the "patriotic" version where we're always the good guys and we never really did anything bad to blacks or native Americans, because it isn't true. I don't like "lost cause" pseudo-history, because it isn't true. And I don't like teaching that slavery and white supremacy were the main driving factors behind almost every major historical development, because it isn't true.

In a history class, we should be aiming to teach history, not politics. I certainly think that people who write about history should self-censor out the bullshit and nonsense, not even because of conservative reactions, but because bullshit and nonsense isn't right. It's not what we should be teaching our children.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,586
10,557
136
Agree. Exposing the weaknesses in CRT is way more effective than banning it. Banning it gives the proponents ammunition. In many cases, just listening to CRT adherents is the best counter argument. Many of their prescriptions are obviously absurd and bad.
The actual theory is functionally irrelevant to Republican political goals other than its utility as a cultural cudgel redefined into whatever they need it to be.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,150
22,741
136
I don't see it that way, as just another alternative take. Alternative takes are like "alternative facts." I don't like politicized history. I don't like teaching the "patriotic" version where we're always the good guys and we never really did anything bad to blacks or native Americans, because it isn't true. I don't like "lost cause" pseudo-history, because it isn't true. And I don't like teaching that slavery and white supremacy were the main driving factors behind almost every major historical development, because it isn't true.

In a history class, we should be aiming to teach history, not politics. I certainly think that people who write about history should self-censor out the bullshit and nonsense, not even because of conservative reactions, but because bullshit and nonsense isn't right. It's not what we should be teaching our children.
Meh, I think all history is politicized to a certain, relatively large extent. I agree that things which aren't generally accepted as accurate shouldn't be taught in schools for the exact reason you mention though. That being said I think it's part of a healthy debate for people to create these sort of alternative takes, lost cause nonsense included. Maybe people shouldn't teach the 1619 project in school but that's very different than saying it should never have been created to begin with. I couldn't disagree more - after all how many things that we currently accept as true started off as things derided as incorrect nonsense?

So going to have to continue to disagree here - no self-censorship because crazy/stupid/dishonest people will try and run with it. We should encourage MORE things like the 1619 project and we shouldn't care for even a second what the hacks at Fox News are going to do with it because like I said, they will just find something else. Today they are apparently mad about people slandering apple pie. (not a joke)
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,075
1,572
136
Uh, how's that working out so far?
- Honestly? Not that bad so far. As of yet it's really just involved a lot of harsh language.

Part of a public vetting is going to involve the nutter fringe, heated emotions, mud slinging and outright lies and disinformation. In ancient Rome actors would be part of the audience for public trials so they can learn their craft from the professionals :p

That's been there, is there, and will always be there.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Debate is entirely reasonable. Having questionable theories is entirely reasonable. Teaching them to grade-school kids is not. That is indoctrination.

I have absolutely no problem with people talking and debating these theories in a college-elective based class or debate.
You don't even know what it is. You've just been told it's bad
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,075
1,572
136
Debate is entirely reasonable. Having questionable theories is entirely reasonable. Teaching them to grade-school kids is not. That is indoctrination.

I have absolutely no problem with people talking and debating these theories in a college-elective based class or debate.
-Right, but this is sort of where the devil comes in.

Sort of like Socialism and Communism, are the terms "woke" and "CRT" being pointed at anything and everything a particular idealogy disagrees with regardless of their actual relation to those terms?

Or is there a truly insidious racist element at work telling white kids to be ashamed of themselves?

I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between, as it so often tends to be.

A lesson on how the first interactions between colonists and native Americans might not fit the Pocahontas ideal that has been taught at schools for generations can be portrayed in a lot of different ways to suite the agenda of the media and political elite, and I'm sure for some the cleanest way to preserve a lionized heritage is to attack any deviation from established thought as "woke" or "teaching CRT" to bypass any sort of critical thought in the listener and hit them right in the emotional core.

All I'm saying is what you likely have been saying "Don't believe everything you read in the papers"...
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,743
9,842
136
- Honestly? Not that bad so far. As of yet it's really just involved a lot of harsh language.

Part of a public vetting is going to involve the nutter fringe, heated emotions, mud slinging and outright lies and disinformation. In ancient Rome actors would be part of the audience for public trials so they can learn their craft from the professionals :p

That's been there, is there, and will always be there.
Hmm, okay, well that's nice and all but 71 million people voted for Trump. The GOP can outright state that only certain people should be allowed to vote and 71+ million people are okay with that. Blatant perjury under oath barely makes headlines. Weaponized DOJ barely makes headlines. Cops are slaughtering the population on a daily bases and nobody blinks. 71+ million people consider protesting a crime. One health emergency is enough to bankrupt half the population and more than 71 million people think trying to change that is a crime against humanity. We passed the point of no return with climate change 30 years ago and 71+ million people think the Green New Deal is bad and rolling coal is good.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
Debate is entirely reasonable. Having questionable theories is entirely reasonable. Teaching them to grade-school kids is not. That is indoctrination.

I have absolutely no problem with people talking and debating these theories in a college-elective based class or debate.
We already allow it, and the institutions enjoy tax exemptions.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Meh, I think all history is politicized to a certain, relatively large extent. I agree that things which aren't generally accepted as accurate shouldn't be taught in schools for the exact reason you mention though. That being said I think it's part of a healthy debate for people to create these sort of alternative takes, lost cause nonsense included. Maybe people shouldn't teach the 1619 project in school but that's very different than saying it should never have been created to begin with. I couldn't disagree more - after all how many things that we currently accept as true started off as things derided as incorrect nonsense?

So going to have to continue to disagree here - no self-censorship because crazy/stupid/dishonest people will try and run with it. We should encourage MORE things like the 1619 project and we shouldn't care for even a second what the hacks at Fox News are going to do with it because like I said, they will just find something else. Today they are apparently mad about people slandering apple pie. (not a joke)
If schools can ignore all the race massacres in this countries history and teach Columbus "discovered" America, what's wrong with the 1619 Project? I don't think "because some won't like it" is a good reason.

Righties were all onboard with teaching intelligent design in schools but 1619 is somehow evil
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,928
5,349
136
Debate is entirely reasonable. Having questionable theories is entirely reasonable. Teaching them to grade-school kids is not. That is indoctrination.
Oh please, the broad contours of CRT can be introduced at a 6th grade level and up. If you're old enough to understand and laugh at racist jokes, you're old enough for CRT. By all means, it should never be presented alone or as "fact"--it needs to be packaged with the alternatives.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,150
22,741
136
If schools can ignore all the race massacres in this countries history and teach Columbus "discovered" America, what's wrong with the 1619 Project? I don't think "because some won't like it" is a good reason.

Righties were all onboard with teaching intelligent design in schools but 1619 is somehow evil
Well, if parts of it are generally accepted to be inaccurate they shouldn’t be taught for the same reason intelligent design shouldn’t be taught.

Conservatives have no principles and don’t care about this but people who actually think our schools should accomplish their goal of educating kids should!
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,586
10,557
136
Well, if parts of it are generally accepted to be inaccurate they shouldn’t be taught for the same reason intelligent design shouldn’t be taught.

Conservatives have no principles and don’t care about this but people who actually think our schools should accomplish their goal of educating kids should!
Imagine my surprise arriving at HS and learning about evolution for basically the first time in bio because my conservative religious grade school just never mentioned it.

Also randomly picked up Howard Zinn that same year. Quite the eye opener about an entirely different view of things.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,075
1,572
136
Hmm, okay, well that's nice and all but 71 million people voted for Trump. The GOP can outright state that only certain people should be allowed to vote and 71+ million people are okay with that. Blatant perjury under oath barely makes headlines. Weaponized DOJ barely makes headlines. Cops are slaughtering the population on a daily bases and nobody blinks. 71+ million people consider protesting a crime. One health emergency is enough to bankrupt half the population and more than 71 million people think trying to change that is a crime against humanity. We passed the point of no return with climate change 30 years ago and 71+ million people think the Green New Deal is bad and rolling coal is good.
- I hear what you're saying, but I would advise against presuming to know why 71 million people one way or another.

If you're on a politics message board you're probably more plugged into the the more "wonky" or principled elements of our governance, something a lot of people just aren't.

"It's the economy stupid" was the saying and the economy from the everyman's perspective was doing great until Covid came in and skull fucked everything.
 
Nov 8, 2012
19,728
4,436
136
-Right, but this is sort of where the devil comes in.

Sort of like Socialism and Communism, are the terms "woke" and "CRT" being pointed at anything and everything a particular idealogy disagrees with regardless of their actual relation to those terms?

Or is there a truly insidious racist element at work telling white kids to be ashamed of themselves?

I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between, as it so often tends to be.

A lesson on how the first interactions between colonists and native Americans might not fit the Pocahontas ideal that has been taught at schools for generations can be portrayed in a lot of different ways to suite the agenda of the media and political elite, and I'm sure for some the cleanest way to preserve a lionized heritage is to attack any deviation from established thought as "woke" or "teaching CRT" to bypass any sort of critical thought in the listener and hit them right in the emotional core.

All I'm saying is what you likely have been saying "Don't believe everything you read in the papers"...
It's really not - there is zero question that this type of idiocy should never be taught to kids growing up. Like I said, thats indoctrination.

Yet you can see plenty of evidence in this very forum of complete dipshits that started off with the thread saying they think it's just a joke - it won't happen - to now conforming to the idea that it's entirely acceptable and/or reasonable.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,743
9,842
136
- I hear what you're saying, but I would advise against presuming to know why 71 million people one way or another.

If you're on a politics message board you're probably more plugged into the the more "wonky" or principled elements of our governance, something a lot of people just aren't.

"It's the economy stupid" was the saying and the economy from the everyman's perspective was doing great until Covid came in and skull fucked everything.
That depends on how you determine if an economy is doing okay, and especially for whom. Health emergencies were bankrupting Americans at alarming rates before COVID, during COVID, and will continue to do so long after COVID.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Well, if parts of it are generally accepted to be inaccurate they shouldn’t be taught for the same reason intelligent design shouldn’t be taught.

Conservatives have no principles and don’t care about this but people who actually think our schools should accomplish their goal of educating kids should!
What parts are inaccurate? If there are correctable mistakes that's not an excuse to ignore it all together. Why is 1619 held to different standards then the rest of history?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,150
22,741
136
What parts are inaccurate? If there are correctable mistakes that's not an excuse to ignore it all together. Why is 1619 held to different standards then the rest of history?
I don't think it is, I would be holding it to the same standard as the rest of history? According to woolfe it argues that the revolutionary war was started in significant part due to the UK's abolition of slavery and I think that's at a minimum a very questionable assertion.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,178
3,863
126

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
4,564
920
136
It's really not - there is zero question that this type of idiocy should never be taught to kids growing up. Like I said, thats indoctrination.

Yet you can see plenty of evidence in this very forum of complete dipshits that started off with the thread saying they think it's just a joke - it won't happen - to now conforming to the idea that it's entirely acceptable and/or reasonable.
The idea that there is systemic racism against BIPOC is backed by a fairly significant data set, so calling it idiocy is well, idiocy.

Teaching controversial theories is exactly what we SHOULD be doing. And also teaching their counterpoints. Anything less is a failure to instill analytical skills and yields the "indoctrination" you so vehemently oppose.
 

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