"Creation"

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Oh it is far worse than that, but i'm not going to tell the whole story again...

When it comes down to it, like "i want to work" and he doesn't want her to, he brings it up, so she's basically his slave, that is how it works. Doesn't seem like much on the outside but if they disagree, he decides, normally she'll follow whatever he wants though as the slave she is.

It is INDEED the way Christian households work. In fact, i have never seen a Christian household that works in any other way.

Women are still slaves under every major form of religion, Christianity, Islam or Hinduism.

Oh, and they don't "treat" them as slaves, they just are slaves, whatever he decides goes, no argument because of religion, her wishes, her hopes, her life... doesn't matter in the least, she's expected to do it as if she wants it even if she doesn't, just like in radical Islam.

Those two groups, evangelicals and radical Islam are so close that it's hard to separate from them while regular islam and Judaism are more alike than Christianity is to either.

Like I said, I'm sorry your interactions with religious people have been so poor but that is not the experience I have had nor do I imagine that is the norm. In the Christian homes I have been in the wife and husband had an equal say and figured things out together. If the wife said, hey I think I'd like to learn to play guitar, she and her husband talked it over to see if that would work. When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

As I stated earlier, I'm sure there are exceptions to that but I would hope they are the small minority rather than the rule.

That is like a story from Pakistan, if it doesn't bother him, SHE wants to play a fucking guitar and needs his permission?

How in the fucking hell can't you understand that this makes her his slave, do you think he would have asked her if he could learn to play the guitar? No.

How about if she wants to work and they sit down and talk about it and she still wants to and he says no? How about if HE wants to work and she says no?

This attitude of yours is EXACTLY what i am talking about, the wife as the slave, you can talk and talk and talk and talk but if you don't want her to play the guitar... guess what, your slave girl won't play the guitar.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

Read Elfears post and then say... maybe not...

It's fucking disgusting.

I imagine ithat my daughter would marry someone like that... she's her own woman, raised like her own woman, she'd kick his arse so bad he'd never stand up again.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

Read Elfears post and then say... maybe not...

It's fucking disgusting.

I imagine ithat my daughter would marry someone like that... she's her own woman, raised like her own woman, she'd kick his arse so bad he'd never stand up again.

Men were abusing women a few hundred thousand years before religion sanctioned it.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Elfear
When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

Is that what you talked about over dinner?

Edit:

"Soo, Cathy, how are the kids? ...good! Listen, there's something I've been meaning to ask you: when you don't feel like being intimate, is Jim ok with that or does he rape you? Oh Jim, can you pass the broccoli?"

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

Read Elfears post and then say... maybe not...

It's fucking disgusting.

I imagine ithat my daughter would marry someone like that... she's her own woman, raised like her own woman, she'd kick his arse so bad he'd never stand up again.

Men were abusing women a few hundred thousand years before religion sanctioned it.

I see it as a prerequisite more than anything. Getting rid of religion won't solve all the problems, but you cannot solve the problems until you get rid of religion.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

Read Elfears post and then say... maybe not...

It's fucking disgusting.

I imagine ithat my daughter would marry someone like that... she's her own woman, raised like her own woman, she'd kick his arse so bad he'd never stand up again.

Men were abusing women a few hundred thousand years before religion sanctioned it.

So fucking what, it's still sanctioned in todays religious societies but prohibited by law.

And it is wrong, that is probably the most clear cut argument i can make on the issue, it is wrong.

Women are not here so we can discuss things with them when men decide regardless of their decision, that is modern slavery of women, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

That is like a story from Pakistan, if it doesn't bother him, SHE wants to play a fucking guitar and needs his permission?

How in the fucking hell can't you understand that this makes her his slave, do you think he would have asked her if he could learn to play the guitar? No.

How about if she wants to work and they sit down and talk about it and she still wants to and he says no? How about if HE wants to work and she says no?

This attitude of yours is EXACTLY what i am talking about, the wife as the slave, you can talk and talk and talk and talk but if you don't want her to play the guitar... guess what, your slave girl won't play the guitar.

Dude, you need to calm down so we can have a rational discussion. The couple I'm speaking about had very little money and three small children so of course learning to play the guitar would be a valid topic of discussion. How are we going to pay for the guitar? How are we going to pay for lessons? Where will the time be found since small children needs lots of attention? The question wasn't whether the wife needed permission from her husband to learn a new talent, it was whether they could afford it at the time.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear
When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

Is that what you talked about over dinner?

Edit:

"Soo, Cathy, how are the kids? ...good! Listen, there's something I've been meaning to ask you: when you don't feel like being intimate, is Jim ok with that or does he rape you? Oh Jim, can you pass the broccoli?"

You've never had any of your guy friends complain about their love life?

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear
When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

Is that what you talked about over dinner?

Edit:

"Soo, Cathy, how are the kids? ...good! Listen, there's something I've been meaning to ask you: when you don't feel like being intimate, is Jim ok with that or does he rape you? Oh Jim, can you pass the broccoli?"

You've never had any of your guy friends complain about their love life?

I've never had any of them tell me that they raped their wives, and I don't anticipate that they would, even if they did.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

That is like a story from Pakistan, if it doesn't bother him, SHE wants to play a fucking guitar and needs his permission?

How in the fucking hell can't you understand that this makes her his slave, do you think he would have asked her if he could learn to play the guitar? No.

How about if she wants to work and they sit down and talk about it and she still wants to and he says no? How about if HE wants to work and she says no?

This attitude of yours is EXACTLY what i am talking about, the wife as the slave, you can talk and talk and talk and talk but if you don't want her to play the guitar... guess what, your slave girl won't play the guitar.

Dude, you need to calm down so we can have a rational discussion. The couple I'm speaking about had very little money and three small children so of course learning to play the guitar would be a valid topic of discussion. How are we going to pay for the guitar? How are we going to pay for lessons? Where will the time be found since small children needs lots of attention? The question wasn't whether the wife needed permission from her husband to learn a new talent, it was whether they could afford it at the time.

So why the fuck did you bring them up in the first place if it has to do with money and not religion.

Do you think i'm daft? Do you think the rest of the forum members are daft?

Obviously, if they cannot afford it they cannot afford it, but this a thread about religion and not on low income families.

You meant exactly what you wrote the first time and it had all to do with religion and nothing to do with money, i think i have even seen the explanations and excuses made by seventh day adventists in the past, it was probably you back then too.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear
When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

Is that what you talked about over dinner?

Edit:

"Soo, Cathy, how are the kids? ...good! Listen, there's something I've been meaning to ask you: when you don't feel like being intimate, is Jim ok with that or does he rape you? Oh Jim, can you pass the broccoli?"

You've never had any of your guy friends complain about their love life?

I've never had any of them tell me that they raped their wives, and I don't anticipate that they would, even if they did.

Fair enough. I don't have a 100% certainty that my buddies are not forcing their wives to have sex with them. But, as a long-time friend, I have every confidence that they are good husbands and don't force their wives to do anything against their wills.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Elfear
When the wife wasn't feeling like being intimate with her husband, guess what, the man didn't force her to do anything (i.e. as a real master/slave relationship would dictate). The woman's voice is given just as much credibility as the man's from the households I know of.

Is that what you talked about over dinner?

Edit:

"Soo, Cathy, how are the kids? ...good! Listen, there's something I've been meaning to ask you: when you don't feel like being intimate, is Jim ok with that or does he rape you? Oh Jim, can you pass the broccoli?"

You've never had any of your guy friends complain about their love life?

I've never had any of them tell me that they raped their wives, and I don't anticipate that they would, even if they did.

Fair enough. I don't have a 100% certainty that my buddies are not forcing their wives to have sex with them. But, as a long-time friend, I have every confidence that they are good husbands and don't force their wives to do anything against their wills.

Nothing can be known for 100%, absolutely nothing, not the existance of a flying teapot, not unicorns, not anything, so you're all good.

If you do have doubts or see signs, report it, no woman deserves to be raped, i've seen so much of that and it's always equally disgusting no matter what man who does it to her, a stranger or a husband, it's just as demeaning to the woman.

Don't talk to them, just put one in... oh wait, you're in a civilian area, then just call the police, even if he'd hate you for it.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


So why the fuck did you bring them up in the first place if it has to do with money and not religion.

Do you think i'm daft? Do you think the rest of the forum members are daft?

Obviously, if they cannot afford it they cannot afford it, but this a thread about religion and not on low income families.

You meant exactly what you wrote the first time and it had all to do with religion and nothing to do with money, i think i have even seen the explanations and excuses made by seventh day adventists in the past, it was probably you back then too.

Ok, I'm really not following you now. Here is what you said "Oh, and they don't "treat" them as slaves, they just are slaves, whatever he decides goes, no argument because of religion, her wishes, her hopes, her life... doesn't matter in the least, she's expected to do it as if she wants it even if she doesn't..."

You stated that Christian wives are slaves and must do what their husbands tell them to. I stated that I haven't had the same experience in the Christian homes I've seen. I gave an example of a decision that needed to be made by the family where the husband did not enforce his will upon his wife (i.e. a decision about her wishes/hopes/life). They discussed the wife's options rather than the husband simply saying, no you have better things to be doing like mowing the lawn or rubbing my feet.

I am not a Seventh-Day Adventist and I'm really not sure which prior discussion you are alluding to.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

I think very few have been slaughtered for"rational" differences.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield(any kid out of high school that doesn't know about evolution as a fact is a kid that hasn't been properly educated, it's like if they didn't know what Pi is)

It does no justice to The Theory of Evolution by calling it a fact. I'm certainly not against it but there is a clear distinction between theories and facts. Or is this just a misplaced modifier?

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield(any kid out of high school that doesn't know about evolution as a fact is a kid that hasn't been properly educated, it's like if they didn't know what Pi is)

It does no justice to The Theory of Evolution by calling it a fact. I'm certainly not against it but there is a clear distinction between theories and facts. Or is this just a misplaced modifier?

There is the theory of evolution which refers to all aspects of the overarching theory of how life evolves, and then there is the fact that evolution occurs.

Similar to gravity. There is the theory of gravity which encompasses all kinds of different aspects of the phenomenon, and then there is the simple fact that gravity exists.

 

[BassBomb]

@ Elfear and Blackjack

this thread was about creation?

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
@ Elfear and Blackjack

this thread was about creation?

Sorry, please resume the topic at hand.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

I think very few have been slaughtered for"rational" differences.

Would you prefer "differences of opinion not pertaining to the supernatural"?

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield(any kid out of high school that doesn't know about evolution as a fact is a kid that hasn't been properly educated, it's like if they didn't know what Pi is)

It does no justice to The Theory of Evolution by calling it a fact. I'm certainly not against it but there is a clear distinction between theories and facts. Or is this just a misplaced modifier?

There is the theory of evolution which refers to all aspects of the overarching theory of how life evolves, and then there is the fact that evolution occurs.

Similar to gravity. There is the theory of gravity which encompasses all kinds of different aspects of the phenomenon, and then there is the simple fact that gravity exists.

You're right and I sound like a skeptic when I make that distinction. I'm not. My bias probably comes from the term "fact" seems like it no longer needs to be researched. Evolution, on the other hand, continues to grow and thus in my opinion has not reached that level. My bad.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield(any kid out of high school that doesn't know about evolution as a fact is a kid that hasn't been properly educated, it's like if they didn't know what Pi is)

It does no justice to The Theory of Evolution by calling it a fact. I'm certainly not against it but there is a clear distinction between theories and facts. Or is this just a misplaced modifier?

There is the theory of evolution which refers to all aspects of the overarching theory of how life evolves, and then there is the fact that evolution occurs.

Similar to gravity. There is the theory of gravity which encompasses all kinds of different aspects of the phenomenon, and then there is the simple fact that gravity exists.

You're right and I sound like a skeptic when I make that distinction. I'm not. My bias probably comes from the term "fact" seems like it no longer needs to be researched. Evolution, on the other hand, continues to grow and thus in my opinion has not reached that level. My bad.

There's a biologist that posted a really good youtube video on this whole subject. I'll try to post it when I get home...

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I believe we will be much better off when religion is gone.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally think while individual humans are mostly good people, en mass we are mostly scummy. I don't know whether slaughtering each other because of myths or slaughtering each other because of rational differences of opinion really matters much to those who are slaughtered.

Read Elfears post and then say... maybe not...

It's fucking disgusting.

I imagine ithat my daughter would marry someone like that... she's her own woman, raised like her own woman, she'd kick his arse so bad he'd never stand up again.

Men were abusing women a few hundred thousand years before religion sanctioned it.

Religion was created - by men - to, in part, justify this behavior.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield(any kid out of high school that doesn't know about evolution as a fact is a kid that hasn't been properly educated, it's like if they didn't know what Pi is)

It does no justice to The Theory of Evolution by calling it a fact. I'm certainly not against it but there is a clear distinction between theories and facts. Or is this just a misplaced modifier?

There is the theory of evolution which refers to all aspects of the overarching theory of how life evolves, and then there is the fact that evolution occurs.

Similar to gravity. There is the theory of gravity which encompasses all kinds of different aspects of the phenomenon, and then there is the simple fact that gravity exists.

You're right and I sound like a skeptic when I make that distinction. I'm not. My bias probably comes from the term "fact" seems like it no longer needs to be researched. Evolution, on the other hand, continues to grow and thus in my opinion has not reached that level. My bad.

I agree with you, there is a clear and important distinct between the words 'theory' and 'fact', and I think precision in scientific language is important. Evolution is the theory or framework which explains the known facts that species change over time. The theory describes the changes, why and how they take place and makes predictions about changes in the future.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
As someone who supports the theory of evolution, I would have no desire to see this film. Perhaps there are other reasons that no American distributor has signed up for the film - they know our tastes in film better. There are a LOT of foreign films which are downright excellent that never reach US shores. I'm not saying that this isn't a great film, just that attributing this solely to the anti-evolution crowd is incomplete.

Nothing blowing up or being blown up along with some gratuitous sex and violence perhaps?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


So why the fuck did you bring them up in the first place if it has to do with money and not religion.

Do you think i'm daft? Do you think the rest of the forum members are daft?

Obviously, if they cannot afford it they cannot afford it, but this a thread about religion and not on low income families.

You meant exactly what you wrote the first time and it had all to do with religion and nothing to do with money, i think i have even seen the explanations and excuses made by seventh day adventists in the past, it was probably you back then too.

Ok, I'm really not following you now. Here is what you said "Oh, and they don't "treat" them as slaves, they just are slaves, whatever he decides goes, no argument because of religion, her wishes, her hopes, her life... doesn't matter in the least, she's expected to do it as if she wants it even if she doesn't..."

You stated that Christian wives are slaves and must do what their husbands tell them to. I stated that I haven't had the same experience in the Christian homes I've seen. I gave an example of a decision that needed to be made by the family where the husband did not enforce his will upon his wife (i.e. a decision about her wishes/hopes/life). They discussed the wife's options rather than the husband simply saying, no you have better things to be doing like mowing the lawn or rubbing my feet.

I am not a Seventh-Day Adventist and I'm really not sure which prior discussion you are alluding to.

You don't understand the point i'm making? That religion is forcing women to be slaves BECAUSE of religion, not because of their husbands?

How can't you understand this? Religion is used to keep women as slaves, as i said, it teaches women as well as men that the womans role is to be the slave of the household, now you might say that it's the womans will to be that slave but it really isn't, it's been shoved in her head since early childhood and she has never ever seen herself as anything but her parents daughter or her husbands wife, she doesn't even know that she's a perfectly good person all on her own...

OK? Are you with me?

I'm not blaming men for it, i'm saying that it's religion that is responsible.

In the story you were portraying (which had sheit to do with money in the first place) the discussion will go the way the man wants because she might object, silently but not loudly, and then he'll make the choice.

That is fucking sick and if any man would do that to my daughter i'd string him up and use him for target practice.