Covidiots thread

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Walking past a local school today I noticed lots of leaflets lying in the gutter, urging parents not to let their children be vaccinated, and claiming tens of thousands have died of the vaccine and it's been hushed-up. I really don't know who these people are (seems like they are a weird coalition of far-right crazies, just-plain-crazies, and even some groups within the black community) but they are very active about sticking up fly-posters (which I see all over the place) and distributing their mad leaflets (all professionally-printed).
So how does this plan to secretly kill tens of thousands work anyway? Do they give a basic outline?
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
21,510
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So how does this plan to secretly kill tens of thousands work anyway? Do they give a basic outline?
Not necessarily endorsing this POV, this is what I think. Their view is, if you get a vaccine, the following is true:

You can still contact covid.
You can still pass covid to others.
Therefore, why bother?

They dont think that that getting the vaccine protects others (which is debatable) but rather its proven getting the vaccine reduces the severity of COVID19 if you get it. For whatever reason, they dont care.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,401
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You can still contact covid. AT a much reduced rate,
You can still pass covid to others. AT a much reduced rate

Therefore, why bother? I don't plan to get in a car accident every time I drive but I still put a seatbelt on
You bother because you can do a proper cost/benefit risk analysis and know you and those in your life are an order of magnitude safer
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,218
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So how does this plan to secretly kill tens of thousands work anyway? Do they give a basic outline?
The fly-posters seem to be claiming the entire pandemic is fake and part of some hyper-vague 'conspiracy' by 'the media' and the government to 'control us'. It's quite the vaguest, most-generic, conspiracy-theory I've ever heard.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
75,628
29,738
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Not necessarily endorsing this POV, this is what I think. Their view is, if you get a vaccine, the following is true:

You can still contact covid.
You can still pass covid to others.
Therefore, why bother?

They dont think that that getting the vaccine protects others (which is debatable) but rather its proven getting the vaccine reduces the severity of COVID19 if you get it. For whatever reason, they dont care.
From what he’s saying the leaflet claims the vaccine itself has killed tens of thousands.

As for the vaccines all indications are you are both less likely to transmit and contract, and with the boosters the early evidence is they are back up to a ~95% reduction.

Regardless, ‘the vaccine is ineffective so I won’t bother’ is ignorant and stupid, but it makes sense at least as there’s a lot of ignorance and stupidity in the world and that’s nothing new. I believe the idea expressed here though is that the vaccines are part of a secret program by the government to depopulate the world through mass murder.

One thing I also question about this is why the government is so bad at their evil scheme. While tens or hundreds of thousands dead is a humanitarian catastrophe it’s not really going to make a dent in the world’s population.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
21,510
1,002
126
From what he’s saying the leaflet claims the vaccine itself has killed tens of thousands.

As for the vaccines all indications are you are both less likely to transmit and contract, and with the boosters the early evidence is they are back up to a ~95% reduction.

Regardless, ‘the vaccine is ineffective so I won’t bother’ is ignorant and stupid, but it makes sense at least as there’s a lot of ignorance and stupidity in the world and that’s nothing new. I believe the idea expressed here though is that the vaccines are part of a secret program by the government to depopulate the world through mass murder.

One thing I also question about this is why the government is so bad at their evil scheme. While tens or hundreds of thousands dead is a humanitarian catastrophe it’s not really going to make a dent in the world’s population.
"acceptable losses"
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,218
4,958
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You can still contact covid. AT a much reduced rate,
You can still pass covid to others. AT a much reduced rate

Therefore, why bother? I don't plan to get in a car accident every time I drive but I still put a seatbelt on
You bother because you can do a proper cost/benefit risk analysis and know you and those in your life are an order of magnitude safer
I'm not entirely sure what went into my decision to get the vaccine (and then the booster). I don't think it was really down to a highly-technical, fully-informed, cost/benefit analysis, based strictly on peer-reviewed research in high-quality journals. It feels like elements of socialisation and group-identity went into it as well. I just trust one side a lot more than the other (indeed, 'the other' seem outright crazy, to me).

I even had some doubts about the booster, on the basis that it seems I might have an auto-immune disease (something that came out after I had the initial two jabs), and until I get to see the consultant to discuss it I am a little nervous a vaccine might exacerbate that (the health system having ground to a halt that hadn't happened by the time of my scheduled booster jab). But in the end I concluded I'm more worried about getting COVID and suffering long-term consequences, or, worse, passing it on to elderly relatives, so decided to just get it over with and ask the consultant about it retrospectively. But that's as much a social-political judgement as a technical one, I think.

I find it very hard to separate intellectual 'knowledge' from things to do with identity and politics. I mean the two are statistically correlated, as level-of-education correlates with voting patterns, for example. And maybe it depends on how one feels about individual risks vs collective benefits, which is a political question.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
75,628
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I'm not entirely sure what went into my decision to get the vaccine (and then the booster). I don't think it was really down to a highly-technical, fully-informed, cost/benefit analysis, based strictly on peer-reviewed research in high-quality journals. It feels like elements of socialisation and group-identity went into it as well. I just trust one side a lot more than the other (indeed, 'the other' seem outright crazy, to me).

I even had some doubts about the booster, on the basis that it seems I might have an auto-immune disease, and until I get to see the consultant to discuss it I am a little nervous a vaccine might exacerbate that (the health system having ground to a halt that hadn't happened by the time of my scheduled booster jab). But in the end I concluded I'm more worried about getting COVID and suffering long-term consequences, or, worse, passing it on to elderly relatives, so decided to just get it over with and ask the consultant about it retrospectively. But that's as much a social-political judgement as a technical one, I think.
To me the calculus was simple - by the time I got it literally millions of other people had as well, with nearly no serious side effects, while my chances of catching COVID absent vaccination were both vastly higher and more likely to make me really ill.

People often overestimate the likelihood of extreme outlier events happening, which is why I imagine they play the lottery and I don’t.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,218
4,958
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To me the calculus was simple - by the time I got it literally millions of other people had as well, with nearly no serious side effects, while my chances of catching COVID absent vaccination were both vastly higher and more likely to make me really ill.

People often overestimate the likelihood of extreme outlier events happening, which is why I imagine they play the lottery and I don’t.
Can't say I disagree...particularly about the downside of catching COVID - I've known at least two people who were hospitalised with it (one on supplemental oxygen), and one friend-of-a-friend who died of it, whereas can't say I've heard of anyone in my social circle dying or getting seriously ill from the vaccine.

Still, though, we are all genetically different, and from what little on-line 'research' I did (decided not to bother after the first cursory attempt, as it just got me more confused) they can't yet say for sure what effect the vaccine might have on auto-immune diseases. Just came down to if there's a bad effect, I'll have to deal with it when it comes, but everyone getting vaccinated is the only hope of getting through this global nightmare so that overrides that particular anxiety.

Can't help but think, though, that my intellectual judgements are entirely mixed-up with those political and social ones. I am unconvinced anyone is a perfectly clear-thinking rational Mr Spock-type figure. [Edit] Yet, paradoxically, it does seem that _some_ people are out of their tiny minds.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Can't say I disagree...particularly about the downside of catching COVID - I've known at least two people who were hospitalised with it (one on supplemental oxygen), and one friend-of-a-friend who died of it, whereas can't say I've heard of anyone in my social circle dying or getting seriously ill from the vaccine.

Still, though, we are all genetically different, and from what little on-line 'research' I did (decided not to bother after the first cursory attempt, as it just got me more confused) they can't yet say for sure what effect the vaccine might have on auto-immune diseases. Just came down to if there's a bad effect, I'll have to deal with it when it comes, but everyone getting vaccinated is the only hope of getting through this global nightmare so that overrides that particular anxiety.

Can't help but think, though, that my intellectual judgements are entirely mixed-up with those political and social ones. I am unconvinced anyone is a perfectly clear-thinking rational Mr Spock-type figure.
I agree - I think most people think they are much more rational than they really are, us included.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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From what he’s saying the leaflet claims the vaccine itself has killed tens of thousands.

As for the vaccines all indications are you are both less likely to transmit and contract, and with the boosters the early evidence is they are back up to a ~95% reduction.

Regardless, ‘the vaccine is ineffective so I won’t bother’ is ignorant and stupid, but it makes sense at least as there’s a lot of ignorance and stupidity in the world and that’s nothing new. I believe the idea expressed here though is that the vaccines are part of a secret program by the government to depopulate the world through mass murder.

One thing I also question about this is why the government is so bad at their evil scheme. While tens or hundreds of thousands dead is a humanitarian catastrophe it’s not really going to make a dent in the world’s population.
It's funny, I've recently been watching Supernatural on Netflix and for one of the seasons a big plot point was demons using a CDC distributed swine flu vaccine to help bring about the apocalypse by turning people into demonic zombies. Sounds like the basis for this bs :p
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,314
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I'm not entirely sure what went into my decision to get the vaccine (and then the booster). I don't think it was really down to a highly-technical, fully-informed, cost/benefit analysis, based strictly on peer-reviewed research in high-quality journals. It feels like elements of socialisation and group-identity went into it as well. I just trust one side a lot more than the other (indeed, 'the other' seem outright crazy, to me).

I even had some doubts about the booster, on the basis that it seems I might have an auto-immune disease (something that came out after I had the initial two jabs), and until I get to see the consultant to discuss it I am a little nervous a vaccine might exacerbate that (the health system having ground to a halt that hadn't happened by the time of my scheduled booster jab). But in the end I concluded I'm more worried about getting COVID and suffering long-term consequences, or, worse, passing it on to elderly relatives, so decided to just get it over with and ask the consultant about it retrospectively. But that's as much a social-political judgement as a technical one, I think.

I find it very hard to separate intellectual 'knowledge' from things to do with identity and politics. I mean the two are statistically correlated, as level-of-education correlates with voting patterns, for example. And maybe it depends on how one feels about individual risks vs collective benefits, which is a political question.
So you are making a cost/benefit analysis for something that is free?

Cost = nothing
Benefit = a hundred-fold better odds of not dying from a virus that has killed millions.

Do you need the Crayola 64 box of crayons to plot that?
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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So you are making a cost/benefit analysis for something that is free?

Cost = nothing
Benefit = a hundred-fold better odds of not dying from a virus that has killed millions.

Do you need the Crayola 64 box of crayons to plot that?

Well the possible cost, in my case, might be a worsening of my hypothyroidism, if that is caused by an auto-immune disorder (which I don't currently know, but is apparently the most likely explanation).

I don't have the medical knowledge to work out if that is a possible outcome - a cursory google search just turned up the hypothyroid association saying there have been "rare reports" of such things happening (even of vaccinations 'triggering' the condition in the first place), but they are being "investigated". In the end decided just not to think about it too much, and get the booster jab over-and-done with, because I feel like it's a social responsibility to do so. I think that's a decision influenced as much by a general political outook as by a careful anaysis of the data.

People don't go through life making every decision as though it was a billion-dollar science project, requiring a full-scale research project. I think in general people make decision because of rough judgements based largely on social and political allegiances.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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Well the possible cost, in my case, might be a worsening of my hypothyroidism, if that is caused by an auto-immune disorder (which I don't currently know, but is apparently the most likely explanation).

I don't have the medical knowledge to work out if that is a possible outcome - a cursory google search just turned up the hypothyroid association saying there have been "rare reports" of such things happening, but they are being "investigated". In the end decided just not to think about it too much, and get the booster jab over-and-done with, because I feel like it's a social responisbility to do so. I think that's a decision influenced as much by my general political outook as by a careful anaysis of the data.
Then you need to ask the advice of the doc who helps you manage your hypothyroidism. Just a hunch, but I suspect the "odds" of a bad outcome are less than the risk of injury driving somewhere for the vaccine or the grocery store.

Or there is Google... oh wait, you've already done that.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Then you need to ask the advice of the doc who helps you manage your hypothyroidism. Just a hunch, but I suspect the "odds" of a bad outcome are less than the risk of injury driving somewhere for the vaccine or the grocery store.

Or there is Google... oh wait, you've already done that.
Well I _would_ have asked the advice of the doc, but it's been near-impossible to see a doctor for nearly 2 years now, as the NHS has ground to a halt with the pandemic , waiting lists are at an all-time high, A&E units are being overwhelmed to the point where people are dying waiting outside in ambulences, and in particular GPs are refusing to see patients for fear of contracting COVID.

Between the virus and Tory/Lib Dem austerity, the NHS is on its knees. It's another reason never, ever, to forgive the Lib Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories and facilitating austerity. Never trust a liberal. [Going off-topic a bit there, but being unable to see a GP since coming out of hospital has been quite frustrating]
 

vi edit

Elite Member
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Oct 28, 1999
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Well I _would_ have asked the advice of the doc, but it's been near-impossible to see a doctor for nearly 2 years now, as the NHS has ground to a halt with the pandemic , waiting lists are at an all-time high, A&E units are being overwhelmed to the point where people are dying waiting outside in ambulences, and in particular GPs are refusing to see patients for fear of contracting COVID.

Between the virus and Tory/Lib Dem austerity, the NHS is on its knees. It's another reason never, ever, to forgive the Lib Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories and facilitating austerity. Never trust a liberal.
There is no evidence in the US that autoimmune disorders should avoid the vaccine. Nearly all autoimmune specialties here advise their patients to get vaccinated. The *only* advisory is if you have an allergy to the specific components that make up the vaccine, and that is incredibly rare. Specifically, allergies to polyethylene glycol.
 

guidryp

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2006
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There is no evidence in the US that autoimmune disorders should avoid the vaccine. Nearly all autoimmune specialties here advise their patients to get vaccinated. The *only* advisory is if you have an allergy to the specific components that make up the vaccine, and that is incredibly rare. Specifically, allergies to polyethylene glycol.
Yep. My Mom has RA, and I have been reading all the studies on auto-immune conditions and the Vaccine.

I have not seen any red flags related to getting the Vaccine with Auto-Immune conditions.

The only real issue for people in my Mom's situation is that, the Vaccine won't generate a sufficient immune response because of the Immune suppressing drugs she takes. Which I think happened for her. Most people seem to develop a sore arm (I did) the next day after the shot due to the immune system kicking in first near the injection site. She didn't feel anything at all.

Shot or no shot, she has to keep behaving like she isn't immunized.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,314
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Well I _would_ have asked the advice of the doc, but it's been near-impossible to see a doctor for nearly 2 years now, as the NHS has ground to a halt with the pandemic , waiting lists are at an all-time high, A&E units are being overwhelmed to the point where people are dying waiting outside in ambulences, and in particular GPs are refusing to see patients for fear of contracting COVID.

Between the virus and Tory/Lib Dem austerity, the NHS is on its knees. It's another reason never, ever, to forgive the Lib Dems for going in to coalition with the Tories and facilitating austerity. Never trust a liberal. [Going off-topic a bit there, but being unable to see a GP since coming out of hospital has been quite frustrating]
Tele-med, email, phone calls?

Not to be flip or dismissive about it, but my wife, with multiple health challenges, including a pacemaker, just had total knee replacement. She has utilized all of the above to sort out the hazards of surgery and when to start/stop some meds before and after.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,218
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Tele-med, email, phone calls?

Not to be flip or dismissive about it, but my wife, with multiple health challenges, including a pacemaker, just had total knee replacement. She has utilized all of the above to sort out the hazards of surgery and when to start/stop some meds before and after.
Managed to get one phone consultation with the GP since the brain surgery, which didn't really get me anywhere as they just said they didn't know much about my particular issues and I would have to ask the specialists (the neurologist and the endocrinologist). Those specialist appointments have been repeatedly postponed, but seem like they are finally about to happen. I'm pretty anxious about them, as I have _so_ many questions, but I strongly suspect the consultants will themselves be under a great deal of stress, as the NHS is really close to being overwhelmed right now. I can't see them being overly patient or sympathetic...really nervous about how the appointments might go. There's a massive backlog even for cancer patients, so one feels bad about possibly wasting the NHS's time.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
11,679
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Not necessarily endorsing this POV, this is what I think. Their view is, if you get a vaccine, the following is true:

You can still contact covid.
You can still pass covid to others.
Therefore, why bother?

They dont think that that getting the vaccine protects others (which is debatable) but rather its proven getting the vaccine reduces the severity of COVID19 if you get it. For whatever reason, they dont care.
No, there are many people that literally think the vaccine itself has killed thousands. They generally point to adverse events database the CDC runs.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
39,708
16,935
136
Yep. My Mom has RA, and I have been reading all the studies on auto-immune conditions and the Vaccine.

I have not seen any red flags related to getting the Vaccine with Auto-Immune conditions.

The only real issue for people in my Mom's situation is that, the Vaccine won't generate a sufficient immune response because of the Immune suppressing drugs she takes. Which I think happened for her. Most people seem to develop a sore arm (I did) the next day after the shot due to the immune system kicking in first near the injection site. She didn't feel anything at all.

Shot or no shot, she has to keep behaving like she isn't immunized.
People who aren't sufficiently responsive to the vaccine should be offered the monoclonals prophylacticly for pre-exposure IMO. It's unfair to leave them without defenses when there are options.
 
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DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
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Well the possible cost, in my case, might be a worsening of my hypothyroidism, if that is caused by an auto-immune disorder (which I don't currently know, but is apparently the most likely explanation).

I don't have the medical knowledge to work out if that is a possible outcome - a cursory google search just turned up the hypothyroid association saying there have been "rare reports" of such things happening (even of vaccinations 'triggering' the condition in the first place), but they are being "investigated". In the end decided just not to think about it too much, and get the booster jab over-and-done with, because I feel like it's a social responsibility to do so. I think that's a decision influenced as much by a general political outook as by a careful anaysis of the data.

People don't go through life making every decision as though it was a billion-dollar science project, requiring a full-scale research project. I think in general people make decision because of rough judgements based largely on social and political allegiances.
I have hypothyroidism as well and I didn't hesitate for a second about getting the vaccine. I had a heart attack and died 10 years ago so the thought of getting COVID scared the shit out of me because I know that it would mean my death so the worry about myocarditis wasn't even a concern for me either.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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No, there are many people that literally think the vaccine itself has killed thousands. They generally point to adverse events database the CDC runs.
There are people that believe that every person vaccinated will die in a year or so of receiving the vaccine. They also believe that soaking in a bath of Epsom salts and baking soda will 'draw' the deadly vaccine out of their body.

In 2020 the pandemic, the actual virus, was the most deadly aspect.
In 2021 with vaccines available, the pandemic of stupidly is the most deadly aspect.
 

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