Couple Charged With Having Intercourse In Front of 9-Year-Old Daughter to Teach Her About Sex

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Amused

When have I ever defending someone violating the actual rights of another?

When have you not? Start with smokers and go on forever.

I know you sport a huge woody for me because I oppose your socialist ideology

I am anything BUT a socialist. I dislike you because you're an ideologue. If anything, I am what Libertarianism is supposed to be, not your twisted version of it.

Smokers?

When have I ever advocated forcing private property owners to allow people to smoke on their property?

Never.

I have always stated that each property owner should have the right to allow, or disallow smoking on THEIR property. Any other option is a total violation of individual rights. The visitors have every right to refuse to enter the property if the policies of the property owner offend them. They do NOT have the right to force the property owner to conform to their wishes. People who oppose my position feel visitors to private property have some dreamed up right to force property owners to accommodate their wishes.

"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right."

Now, please explain, in detail, exactly how my stands on "smokers" has been a "twisted version" of libertarianism?

Fixed your quoting... thanks guys.

 

[mugs]

So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Amused
Wow. Why would you assume I approve of parents doing something like this?

So, you're on record that "it's okay" for the gov't to be legally involved with prosecuting this type of behavior?

spin factor, spin factor, spin factor!!!

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Wuffsunie
Who wants to bet on their getting more jail time than if they were physically abusive to each other in front of the child?

Basically. Both are really stupid things to do though.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: mugs
So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

I don't know. I suspect it may very well have harmed the child but I am no expert. Either way, it certainly isn't very smart.

Advocate claims there is enough evidence to back up the position that this is harmful. While we may disagree on ideological concepts, I have never noted him to lie.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Well I don't know how girls learn about it, but 99.9% of the boys in my school learned about it by finding porno mags in the alley and creek. Then there was also the one older kid that had access to his dads tapes and would rent them out.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: mugs
So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

I don't know. I suspect it may very well have harmed the child but I am no expert. Either way, it certainly isn't very smart.

Advocate claims there is enough evidence to back up the position that this is harmful. While we may disagree on ideological concepts, I have never noted him to lie.

You don't have to make the absolute determination of harmfulness. That's not what's required, nor should it be. Capacity is the child's ability to comprehend the situation enough to object in his/her best interests (if necessary). Child lacks capacity, and has been forced, persuaded or cajoled into attending these sessions (only "fact" finding I'm making), without the capacity to acquiesce. It is the distcintion that we make between kids and adults. But if the girl was 18, would you still be okay with her mom talking her into watching her have sex with her boyfriend?

BTW, you never really answered the question. Ignoring the factual determination of "harmful", when is it okay in your worldview for the govt to step in?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: mugs
So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

I don't know. I suspect it may very well have harmed the child but I am no expert. Either way, it certainly isn't very smart.

Advocate claims there is enough evidence to back up the position that this is harmful. While we may disagree on ideological concepts, I have never noted him to lie.

You don't have to make the absolute determination of harmfulness. That's not what's required, nor should it be. Capacity is the child's ability to comprehend the situation enough to object in his/her best interests (if necessary). Child lacks capacity, and has been forced, persuaded or cajoled into attending these sessions (only "fact" finding I'm making), without the capacity to acquiesce. It is the distcintion that we make between kids and adults. But if the girl was 18, would you still be okay with her mom talking her into watching her have sex with her boyfriend?

BTW, you never really answered the question. Ignoring the factual determination of "harmful", when is it okay in your worldview for the govt to step in?

I never ignored the question. The government exists to protect the rights of individuals. To do so, the government can step in when an individual's rights have been violated. In this case, if you are correct that this is harmful to the child, the child's mental health has been harmed.

If she was 18, what could we do? She's be a willing adult... unless they kidnapped her. And that would be another issue.

Hint: I'm agreeing with you in this case.

Why are you arguing with me?

My positions do not have inconsistency. I am consistently in favor of individual rights and freedoms and a government designed to protect those rights and freedoms.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Well I don't know how girls learn about it, but 99.9% of the boys in my school learned about it by finding porno mags in the alley and creek. Then there was also the one older kid that had access to his dads tapes and would rent them out.

Thank God I grew up in a different time. We learned by experimenting back in the day.

 

[nakedfrog]

Hm...
Now, will the child be better off if both of them are jailed and she's sent to a foster home? Would that cause more harm than this?

 

[randay]

what... no PICS? WTF amused?!

 

[chambersc]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
In a large part of the world seeing you parents having sex is how kids learn about sex.
And for the most part that's the way it's always been. Not only do a lot of families share a single room, but many share a single bed.

Charging them for that is, IMO nuts....

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay
what... no PICS? WTF amused?!

Hey, I looked but none of the news outlets I could find had pics of the parents. It ain't my fault.

 

[Bryophyte]

Originally posted by: djheater

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: HamSupLo
those crazy hippies...

Fixed.

We're pretty much hippies, and we know a lot of hippy parents who are way more granola than us. None of them would do this.

Crazy crazies, I think.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Hm...
Now, will the child be better off if both of them are jailed and she's sent to a foster home? Would that cause more harm than this?

Irrelevant. She is living with her father now. It's only the mother who did this.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay
what... no PICS? WTF amused?!

Hey, I looked but none of the news outlets I could find had pics of the parents. It ain't my fault.

then dont post it

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay
what... no PICS? WTF amused?!

Hey, I looked but none of the news outlets I could find had pics of the parents. It ain't my fault.

then dont post it

Crap. It's too good a story to not post.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: eleison


Ohhh noes.. its the "for the sake of the child.. think of the children!!!" guy... there always has to be one in the group...

Ohhh noes... its the "I am a pervert and see nothing wrong with having sex in front of a nine year old so I will make a stupid comment about someone who feels it is wrong to do so" guy... there always has to be one in the group.

Yes, you are right.. how stupid of me... "We must really think of the children..." it is obviously wrong. never mind, there are millions of people in the world who has done the same either inadvertently or overtly due to their different cultures. these same cultures who would think we are crazy for even debating such a silly topic when there are more pressing issues in the world... never, mind... that...


How silly of me!!! I've learned my lesson. I will never go against the "think of the children!!!" guy again... lest his best friend, the "hey, if you don't believe what I believe, you're a pervert" guy chimes in.... the horror!!!!

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Bryophyte

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Hm...
Now, will the child be better off if both of them are jailed and she's sent to a foster home? Would that cause more harm than this?

Irrelevant. She is living with her father now. It's only the mother who did this.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant to look at the relative harm caused by having an incarcerated mother versus seeing a live sex show starring her mom and some dude.

 

[Bryophyte]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Bryophyte

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Hm...
Now, will the child be better off if both of them are jailed and she's sent to a foster home? Would that cause more harm than this?

Irrelevant. She is living with her father now. It's only the mother who did this.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant to look at the relative harm caused by having an incarcerated mother versus seeing a live sex show starring her mom and some dude.

I was refering to the foster home part. She's living in another state from her mother and the mother really shouldn't be having unsupervised visitation (IMO) so the fact that her mother is in jail might cause some embarrassment and anguish, but I don't think it's more than she's already had to deal with from her mother's behavior.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Bryophyte
I was refering to the foster home part. She's living in another state from her mother and the mother really shouldn't be having unsupervised visitation (IMO) so the fact that her mother is in jail might cause some embarrassment and anguish, but I don't think it's more than she's already had to deal with from her mother's behavior.

And I disagree, I think removal of her mother will cause more psychological problems than simply removing the child from the home.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: mugs
So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

I don't know. I suspect it may very well have harmed the child but I am no expert. Either way, it certainly isn't very smart.

Advocate claims there is enough evidence to back up the position that this is harmful. While we may disagree on ideological concepts, I have never noted him to lie.

You don't have to make the absolute determination of harmfulness. That's not what's required, nor should it be. Capacity is the child's ability to comprehend the situation enough to object in his/her best interests (if necessary). Child lacks capacity, and has been forced, persuaded or cajoled into attending these sessions (only "fact" finding I'm making), without the capacity to acquiesce. It is the distcintion that we make between kids and adults. But if the girl was 18, would you still be okay with her mom talking her into watching her have sex with her boyfriend?

BTW, you never really answered the question. Ignoring the factual determination of "harmful", when is it okay in your worldview for the govt to step in?

So, by this logic, does a child have the capacity to comprehend religion well enough to determine if it is in their best interest and object to it if necessary. Or are children generally forced to attend church and sunday school or whatever flavor of religious teachings parents inflict on their children?

At the base of it, this is sex education that the mother is advocating. Home schooled sex ed, if you will. Rather than her child becoming exposed to sex by internet porn and idiotic, misinformed conversations with her sexually ignorant friends, she's choosing to educate in this manner. I'll admit it seems a bit of an unorthodox method, but she should be free to do so with her own child. My only objection to what she did is that she did it with her boyfriend, presumably without the father's knowledge or consent. If it were the natural parents doing this, I would have no objection at all.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Amused
If she was 18, what could we do? She's be a willing adult... unless they kidnapped her. And that would be another issue.

Ahh, but the other aspect of capacity can be undue influence. Regardless of age, i think it's wrong for her mom to subject her to at any age. Put another way, let's say she asked to watch her mom... wouldn't we recommend therapy?

Why are you arguing with me?

I'm not really arguing with you other than trying to get you to look at this issue outside of your ideology. i could and started to go tremendously off topic to explain why - but the nuts and bolts of it is that your ideology is no more valid here than other times when we've disagreed. Yes we agree on the outcome, but not on the why.

My positions do not have inconsistency. I am consistently in favor of individual rights and freedoms and a government designed to protect those rights and freedoms.

My reply would have to be a long P&N post. I'll save it for that forum sometime. Suffice to say, I completely disagree with you.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: mugs
So Amused, what is your opinion on this story? Obviously that depends on whether the child was harmed. Do you think what they did would harm a child?

I don't know. I suspect it may very well have harmed the child but I am no expert. Either way, it certainly isn't very smart.

Advocate claims there is enough evidence to back up the position that this is harmful. While we may disagree on ideological concepts, I have never noted him to lie.

You don't have to make the absolute determination of harmfulness. That's not what's required, nor should it be. Capacity is the child's ability to comprehend the situation enough to object in his/her best interests (if necessary). Child lacks capacity, and has been forced, persuaded or cajoled into attending these sessions (only "fact" finding I'm making), without the capacity to acquiesce. It is the distcintion that we make between kids and adults. But if the girl was 18, would you still be okay with her mom talking her into watching her have sex with her boyfriend?

BTW, you never really answered the question. Ignoring the factual determination of "harmful", when is it okay in your worldview for the govt to step in?

So, by this logic, does a child have the capacity to comprehend religion well enough to determine if it is in their best interest and object to it if necessary. Or are children generally forced to attend church and sunday school or whatever flavor of religious teachings parents inflict on their children?

Legally? Or morally? Forget that red herring, don't most Christian denominations employ the concept of confirmation for this reason? There's your answer.

If it were the natural parents doing this, I would have no objection at all.

Because the thousands of books and educational films on the topic are not a good basis for a parental discussion. Because she needs to see penetration and fluid exchange with her own parents to learn and it won't scar her for life...

Good lord. I've officially seen it all on ATOT.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Hm...
Now, will the child be better off if both of them are jailed and she's sent to a foster home? Would that cause more harm than this?

Sounds like the father has custody... Which kind of makes you wonder, because the mother almost always gets custody of the kids.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Because the thousands of books and educational films on the topic are not a good basis for a parental discussion. Because she needs to see penetration and fluid exchange with her own parents to learn and it won't scar her for life...

Good lord. I've officially seen it all on ATOT.

So it would be okay to talk to her about it and describe it to her using books? Why does her capacity to understand suddenly vanish if she sees it in real life instead of a book?


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