County Officials Attempt to Stop Home Bible Study

[Triumph]

This is why you keep your conversations with cops to a bare minimum. Are we being too loud officer? Am I under arrest? Do you have a search warrant? Alright sir, please kindly be on your way. Thank you.

I understand why the guy answered the cop's pointed questions, no reasonable person would even think that the fact that they are studying the bible would have anything to do with the complaint. But if the home owner had refused to answer the cops questions, which he would be perfectly within his rights to do so, that'd be the end of the story. It's a great way to politely tell the cops to go fuck themselves. If the police want to arrest him for violation of some spurious law, let them go do all the legwork themselves to collect the evidence.

 

[DealMonkey]

I only wish the County of San Diego would put a stop to MORE of these bible study groups.

Don't they have about a bazillion churches they could congregate in?

Contrary to OCGuy's idiotic blathering about constitutional protections, which clearly don't apply here, zoning laws were created for a reason. Want to buy a property to use as a church? Go buy a f'ing church that's zoned appropriately. Don't go converting your house into one. And don't turn it into an auto shop, bingo hall, flop house, or anything else that violates zoning laws either.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

Spoken like a true fascist commie.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

Spoken like a true fascist commie.

Yes, zoning laws, the TRUE tool of communist oppression. I'm pretty sure that's how Stalin and Mao did it :roll:

That said, I have a hard time believing that the law classifies relatively small gatherings like that as businesses or churches.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Negative. Like I posted previously, Churches, Temples, Mosques, etc require Permits. It has nothing to do with regulating Religion or Religious Practises.

Except they are not trying to start a church there. If you read more about the case they already have a 25,000 sq.ft. church 3 miles away from the home. They were just having a meeting inside the home with friends. Perfectly legal and without a permit.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I only wish the County of San Diego would put a stop to MORE of these bible study groups.

Don't they have about a bazillion churches they could congregate in?

Contrary to OCGuy's idiotic blathering about constitutional protections, which clearly don't apply here, zoning laws were created for a reason. Want to buy a property to use as a church? Go buy a f'ing church that's zoned appropriately. Don't go converting your house into one. And don't turn it into an auto shop, bingo hall, flop house, or anything else that violates zoning laws either.

Except they already have a church. It was a meeting in their home with friends. Not an official church function, as they have those at the church.

I suspect if they were having a football party this never would have happened. Some people have become so biased against religion that they get angry at the mention of it. Just look at the forums here when someone mentions religion. They are ready to burn the poster at the stake.

The whole thing started because a person visiting a neighbor complained about damage to their car. If that person did not have any malice towards the group itself they would have handled it like any other traffic incident, kept it between the owners of the cars. Instead you have a pissed off person who gets the mentality of "I'll show them" and tries to start something. The complaint was not brought by any of the neighbors, but a person who was visiting one of them.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

No. They weren't using it as a church. If you read the thread, they have a church. If their assembly for Bible study is equivalent to being a church, then your having some friends over and drinking beer each Sunday while watching football makes you a sports bar.

That's the point that most of us in this thread seem to realize. Any other issues - car accident, etc., are purely external - there are other laws that address these issues.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

Spoken like a true fascist commie.

Blowme.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

No. They weren't using it as a church. If you read the thread, they have a church. If their assembly for Bible study is equivalent to being a church, then your having some friends over and drinking beer each Sunday while watching football makes you a sports bar.

That's the point that most of us in this thread seem to realize. Any other issues - car accident, etc., are purely external - there are other laws that address these issues.

If you don't like the zoning laws, work to change them, but don't act all pissy when your bible study group gets shut down because you're in violation of the local ordinances. Or your home sports bar for that matter. A violation is a violation.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I only wish the County of San Diego would put a stop to MORE of these bible study groups.

Don't they have about a bazillion churches they could congregate in?

Contrary to OCGuy's idiotic blathering about constitutional protections, which clearly don't apply here, zoning laws were created for a reason. Want to buy a property to use as a church? Go buy a f'ing church that's zoned appropriately. Don't go converting your house into one. And don't turn it into an auto shop, bingo hall, flop house, or anything else that violates zoning laws either.

Except they already have a church. It was a meeting in their home with friends. Not an official church function, as they have those at the church.

I suspect if they were having a football party this never would have happened. Some people have become so biased against religion that they get angry at the mention of it. Just look at the forums here when someone mentions religion. They are ready to burn the poster at the stake.

The whole thing started because a person visiting a neighbor complained about damage to their car. If that person did not have any malice towards the group itself they would have handled it like any other traffic incident, kept it between the owners of the cars. Instead you have a pissed off person who gets the mentality of "I'll show them" and tries to start something. The complaint was not brought by any of the neighbors, but a person who was visiting one of them.

And by the way, requiring a permit != shutting anyone down. You wanna have religious services in your residential home, go get a permit to do so. No one's saying you cannot. What's the big deal?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey


And by the way, requiring a permit != shutting anyone down. You wanna have religious services in your residential home, go get a permit to do so. No one's saying you cannot. What's the big deal?

Because they don't want them to get a temp permit which is cheap, they want them to get a full church permit which is thousands of dollars. Requiring a permit does require them to stop as the county told them that every meeting they have until they get the permit will be fined.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

No. They weren't using it as a church. If you read the thread, they have a church. If their assembly for Bible study is equivalent to being a church, then your having some friends over and drinking beer each Sunday while watching football makes you a sports bar.

That's the point that most of us in this thread seem to realize. Any other issues - car accident, etc., are purely external - there are other laws that address these issues.

One issue that seems to be overlooked is that this is an average of 15 people every week. Every week one could have the street plugged with 15 or more cars? To me that seems like a bit much to expect the neighbors to put up with.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

No. They weren't using it as a church. If you read the thread, they have a church. If their assembly for Bible study is equivalent to being a church, then your having some friends over and drinking beer each Sunday while watching football makes you a sports bar.

That's the point that most of us in this thread seem to realize. Any other issues - car accident, etc., are purely external - there are other laws that address these issues.

One issue that seems to be overlooked is that this is an average of 15 people every week. Every week one could have the street plugged with 15 or more cars? To me that seems like a bit much to expect the neighbors to put up with.

I doubt they were having 15 cars show up, most people come to meetings like that catching rides with other people. I think the interesting thing is that this has gone on for a long time and there was never a complaint from any of the neighbors until a visitors car was damaged. I still think this is a case where someones car got damaged, the owner got pissed and did everything he could to exact revenge.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

Right, it's ok to restrict people's right to assemble because zoning laws make it ok. Your argument is akin to voter requirements: they didn't state that black people couldn't vote, they simply made literacy a requirement to register. People like you back then would say, "Hey, we're not restricting their right to vote! They just need to learn how to read before they can be registered to vote." :roll:

 

[DaveSimmons]

Since they have a church, why can't they solve this peacefully without the drama by just going there?

Zoning laws keep rendering plants from opening next door to your house more often than they keep blacks from voting. Zoning laws rarely dress up in white robes with pointy hats.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

No. They weren't using it as a church. If you read the thread, they have a church. If their assembly for Bible study is equivalent to being a church, then your having some friends over and drinking beer each Sunday while watching football makes you a sports bar.

That's the point that most of us in this thread seem to realize. Any other issues - car accident, etc., are purely external - there are other laws that address these issues.

Exactly. The topic of zoning is a weak red herring both in this thread and by San Diego county.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Wow, that's insane.

[snip!]

The idea that there could be a restriction on a private gathering based on the topic of conversation astounds me, and it seems to go against the principle of freedom of religion in this country...

Wow, that's insane! You completely do not understand the zoning laws that are being enforced in this case. It's not based on the topic of conversation, you moron, it's based on using your property contrary to the county zoning laws. Get it straight!

Right, it's ok to restrict people's right to assemble because zoning laws make it ok. Your argument is akin to voter requirements: they didn't state that black people couldn't vote, they simply made literacy a requirement to register. People like you back then would say, "Hey, we're not restricting their right to vote! They just need to learn how to read before they can be registered to vote." :roll:

No one's saying they can't assemble, rather they're saying that if they're going to run a weekly church service out of their home, they need a permit to do so. Great strawman you've got going there though.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I doubt they were having 15 cars show up, most people come to meetings like that catching rides with other people. I think the interesting thing is that this has gone on for a long time and there was never a complaint from any of the neighbors until a visitors car was damaged. I still think this is a case where someones car got damaged, the owner got pissed and did everything he could to exact revenge.

So you're pretending to know the situation with the cars and parking, but really have no f'ing idea either way? Gotcha.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Vic
Exactly. The topic of zoning is a weak red herring both in this thread and by San Diego county.

I don't know, Vic. Generally code enforcement is too poorly manned to do anything but respond to complaints. When they get a complaint though, it's a no-brainer to follow-up on it and so they did.

Are you insinuating that the County of San Diego is somehow selectively enforcing zoning laws? If you can prove that, more power to you, but somehow I doubt you can.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Since they have a church, why can't they solve this peacefully without the drama by just going there?

Zoning laws keep rendering plants from opening next door to your house more often than they keep blacks from voting. Zoning laws rarely dress up in white robes with pointy hats.

Why should they have to? Since there's a pub down the street, does that mean I can't invite my friends over to my house for burgers and beers?

You seem to be implying that a small gathering at a private home is somehow a nuisance like a rending plant. Because it's to prevent nuisances that zoning laws are made. And in this case, there is no nuisance, now or foreseeable.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Since they have a church, why can't they solve this peacefully without the drama by just going there?

Zoning laws keep rendering plants from opening next door to your house more often than they keep blacks from voting. Zoning laws rarely dress up in white robes with pointy hats.

Why should they have to? Since there's a pub down the street, does that mean I can't invite my friends over to my house for burgers and beers?

You seem to be implying that a small gathering at a private home is somehow a nuisance like a rending plant. Because it's to prevent nuisances that zoning laws are made. And in this case, there is no nuisance, now or foreseeable.

If I had 15 cars parked all over my street, and in front of my house once a week, I'd find that to be a huge nuisance. Are we going to have to define "nuisance" now? Is that it? And by the way, if my County ordinances didn't have anything to say about the parking situation and improper use of a residence, my neighborhood's CC&Rs certainly would. Parking and how it's done is highly regulated in some neighborhoods. Don't like it? Don't move there.

 

[her209]

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/Por.../052909caomessage.html

A Message from County CAO Walt Ekard

May 29, 2009

I have received dozens of e-mails and calls from people concerned about reports that the County is attempting to muzzle religious expression by shutting down a neighborhood Bible study. As the Chief Administrative Officer for San Diego County, I want to say in the most direct terms: the County has never tried to stifle religious expression and never will.

The County responded to complaints from a neighbor about traffic and parking issues resulting from a weekly Bible study held in a Bonita home. This is a land use issue; it?s not an issue of religious expression. We have been working to resolve the matter with the property owner.

I am personally reviewing our actions in this case and the policies and procedures we use to deal with such complaints. Should I find that County staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately.

More importantly, let me be clear: religious intolerance in any form is not, and never will be, allowed under any circumstance in San Diego County government.
I deeply regret that a routine code enforcement issue has transformed into a debate over religious freedom in San Diego County. No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent. The Bible studies will continue in Pastor David Jones? home as we work to find a solution that works for everyone involved in this matter.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Vic
Exactly. The topic of zoning is a weak red herring both in this thread and by San Diego county.

I don't know, Vic. Generally code enforcement is too poorly manned to do anything but respond to complaints. When they get a complaint though, it's a no-brainer to follow-up on it and so they did.

Are you insinuating that the County of San Diego is somehow selectively enforcing zoning laws? If you can prove that, more power to you, but somehow I doubt you can.

Uhh... ALL laws in ALL jurisdictions are selectively enforced, in large part because law enforcement forces are perpetually undermanned relative to the number and scope of the laws they are tasked to enforce (the real problem IMO), and also because most people do break the law in some shape or form on a regular basis. Case in point: are you ticketed everytime you speed on the highway? And what do you suppose San Diego county's code enforcement division's backlog and turn around time in responding to complaints is right now?

You're also implying that a zoning complaint must be valid simply because there was a complaint. Hardly.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Since they have a church, why can't they solve this peacefully without the drama by just going there?

Zoning laws keep rendering plants from opening next door to your house more often than they keep blacks from voting. Zoning laws rarely dress up in white robes with pointy hats.

Why should they have to? Since there's a pub down the street, does that mean I can't invite my friends over to my house for burgers and beers?

You seem to be implying that a small gathering at a private home is somehow a nuisance like a rending plant. Because it's to prevent nuisances that zoning laws are made. And in this case, there is no nuisance, now or foreseeable.

If I had 15 cars parked all over my street, and in front of my house once a week, I'd find that to be a huge nuisance. Are we going to have to define "nuisance" now? Is that it? And by the way, if my County ordinances didn't have anything to say about the parking situation and improper use of a residence, my neighborhood's CC&Rs certainly would. Parking and how it's done is highly regulated in some neighborhoods. Don't like it? Don't move there.

Which is exactly why I won't live in a fascist HOA, now or ever. The reason why Californians think they have to live under those conditions is because their state govt is little more than a corrupt pawn for special interests, especially the developers.