Correcting Racism

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: spidey07
We can start by making any form of affirmative action a federal crime. That would be a good start.

I hope you realize that women are the greatest beneficiaries of AA.

Yeah, well that's wrong to and sexist. AA is blatant institutional racism and it needs to end now. As long as this legally mandated and allowed racist practice is in place it remains the most racist piece of our nation.

AA is neither racist nor sexist. If it were, then POC and women would be overrepresented in positions of power. The reality is that white men are still privileged over the rest of society. Righting those wrongs is not sexism or racism, it's justice.

White male ex-cons are more easily employed than non-criminal black men

Asians are the most hurt by affirmative action.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Racism will go away on its own if we'd just let it.

People said that about slavery too.

It would have.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Likely, it would have, but it would have taken longer.

What about Apartheid in South Africa? Would it have ended on it's own?

Social justice is achieved through activism, not some natural force. Oppression is great for the oppressors, and they will resist change. Therefore, progress needs to be forced, not just waited out.

Clearly we disagree on how change occurs. I think gay people should be allowed to get married. An increasing number of people share that few. I think this is the result of an increasing comfort level society is naturally developing concerning gay people. There is also an increase in anti-gay feelings largely as a reaction to activism on the marriage issue. Forcing the issue now is increasing opposition and hate, creating more of a problem than if widespread acceptance were allowed to occur naturally. And of course meaningful change takes time more time than trying to legislate the problem away, but I still feel that creates and prolongs more problems than it may seem to solve on the surface.

I have to say you're simply wrong here. The simplest form of activism is "I exist; I have human rights." Until the 1960s, gays were not vocal, we were not visible in public life. To any LGBT person, simply coming out of the closet is activism. Telling your family and friends that they know a gay person, they know a trans person, and that they love this person is what is changing perspectives on gay and trans issues. Becoming visible is the first step to achieving equality. For oppressed groups to simply wait until someone gives them rights is ridiculous.

I recommend you read this: The Privilege of Politeness

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: spidey07
We can start by making any form of affirmative action a federal crime. That would be a good start.

I hope you realize that women are the greatest beneficiaries of AA.

Women wanted equal rights, let them have equal rights. They should compete on a level playing field with everyone else, just like Blacks, Browns, Yellows, and Whites should.
A lot of the problems with AA are that an unqualified person will apply for the job and get it because they are the right race, Then people that were passed up or that now have to work with the unqualified person are pissed that AA screwed everyone.

Why is it assumed that white men are the most qualified? Women make up the majority of students in American universities, and have higher GPAs than men.

It is obvious to anyone who observes that women are discriminated against in the workplace. Affirmative Action exists to correct discrimination based on gender and race. It should exist as long as discrimination does.

EDIT: An illustration for those who doubt white male privilege.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: spidey07
We can start by making any form of affirmative action a federal crime. That would be a good start.

I hope you realize that women are the greatest beneficiaries of AA.

Women wanted equal rights, let them have equal rights. They should compete on a level playing field with everyone else, just like Blacks, Browns, Yellows, and Whites should.
A lot of the problems with AA are that an unqualified person will apply for the job and get it because they are the right race, Then people that were passed up or that now have to work with the unqualified person are pissed that AA screwed everyone.

Why is it assumed that white men are the most qualified? Women make up the majority of students in American universities, and have higher GPAs than men.

It is obvious to anyone who observes that women are discriminated against in the workplace. Affirmative Action exists to correct discrimination based on gender and race. It should exist as long as discrimination does.

:roll:

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Why is it assumed that white men are the most qualified? Women make up the majority of students in American universities, and have higher GPAs than men.

It is obvious to anyone who observes that women are discriminated against in the workplace. Affirmative Action exists to correct discrimination based on gender and race. It should exist as long as discrimination does.

It's already illegal to discriminate based on race/gender or any of the other protected classes.

AA, by definition (preferring one over the other) is blatant racism and if you believe in it, you're a racist. It really is just that simple.

Most of the smart black leaders (ones who aren't carrying the race card ready to play) acknowledge that it is.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Racism will go away on its own if we'd just let it.

People said that about slavery too.

It would have.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Likely, it would have, but it would have taken longer.

What about Apartheid in South Africa? Would it have ended on it's own?

Social justice is achieved through activism, not some natural force. Oppression is great for the oppressors, and they will resist change. Therefore, progress needs to be forced, not just waited out.

Clearly we disagree on how change occurs. I think gay people should be allowed to get married. An increasing number of people share that few. I think this is the result of an increasing comfort level society is naturally developing concerning gay people. There is also an increase in anti-gay feelings largely as a reaction to activism on the marriage issue. Forcing the issue now is increasing opposition and hate, creating more of a problem than if widespread acceptance were allowed to occur naturally. And of course meaningful change takes time more time than trying to legislate the problem away, but I still feel that creates and prolongs more problems than it may seem to solve on the surface.

I have to say you're simply wrong here. The simplest form of activism is "I exist; I have human rights." Until the 1960s, gays were not vocal, we were not visible in public life. To any LGBT person, simply coming out of the closet is activism. Telling your family and friends that they know a gay person, they know a trans person, and that they love this person is what is changing perspectives on gay and trans issues. Becoming visible is the first step to achieving equality. For oppressed groups to simply wait until someone gives them rights is ridiculous.

I recommend you read this: The Privilege of Politeness

To most non-LGBT people that's not activism. To put it bluntly the ultimate goal for any activist shouldn't be acceptance for what they are, it should be indifference for what makes them different. But a lot of activism today tries to achieve that separate but equal status that creates a lot of resentment among people who otherwise really wouldn't care, thus working against what I think should be the ultimate goal here.

 

[yllus]

Somehow encourage racial diversity in city neighbourhoods? I tend to find that racism quickly disappears when people actually interact on a regular basis with the race they'd previously demeaned.

 

[Phokus]

send republicans to re-education camps like they hilariously fear Obama will enact soon?

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef
I have to say you're simply wrong here. The simplest form of activism is "I exist; I have human rights." Until the 1960s, gays were not vocal, we were not visible in public life. To any LGBT person, simply coming out of the closet is activism. Telling your family and friends that they know a gay person, they know a trans person, and that they love this person is what is changing perspectives on gay and trans issues. Becoming visible is the first step to achieving equality. For oppressed groups to simply wait until someone gives them rights is ridiculous.

I recommend you read this: The Privilege of Politeness

To most non-LGBT people that's not activism. To put it bluntly the ultimate goal for any activist shouldn't be acceptance for what they are, it should be indifference for what makes them different. But a lot of activism today tries to achieve that separate but equal status that creates a lot of resentment among people who otherwise really wouldn't care, thus working against what I think should be the ultimate goal here.

Can you give an example of "separate but equal status?"

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: yllus
Somehow encourage racial diversity in city neighbourhoods? I tend to find that racism quickly disappears when people actually interact on a regular basis with the race they'd previously demeaned.

This is correct, and reflects my point that an LGBT person announcing her existence is one of the most political things she can do.

However, one caveat is that these interactions need to be equal. Having a black nanny, a Latina maid and only talking to Jews while you're ordering a bagel doesn't count.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Racism will go away on its own if we'd just let it.

In theory. I heard the tail end of a segment on NPR today. The caller was complaining that they had cut down the time period for voting in N.C. and that it was racially motivated. Evidently they cut it down from 30 days to 3 days for early voting or some such. When questioned as to why it was racist, he reiterated the same words. They cut down the time period and that made it racist. No arguments supporting his reasoning whatsoever.

How does a nation cope with moronic attitudes like that?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Racism will go away on its own if we'd just let it.

People said that about slavery too.

It would have.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Likely, it would have, but it would have taken longer.

What about Apartheid in South Africa? Would it have ended on it's own?

Social justice is achieved through activism, not some natural force. Oppression is great for the oppressors, and they will resist change. Therefore, progress needs to be forced, not just waited out.

Clearly we disagree on how change occurs. I think gay people should be allowed to get married. An increasing number of people share that few. I think this is the result of an increasing comfort level society is naturally developing concerning gay people. There is also an increase in anti-gay feelings largely as a reaction to activism on the marriage issue. Forcing the issue now is increasing opposition and hate, creating more of a problem than if widespread acceptance were allowed to occur naturally. And of course meaningful change takes time more time than trying to legislate the problem away, but I still feel that creates and prolongs more problems than it may seem to solve on the surface.

I have to say you're simply wrong here. The simplest form of activism is "I exist; I have human rights." Until the 1960s, gays were not vocal, we were not visible in public life. To any LGBT person, simply coming out of the closet is activism. Telling your family and friends that they know a gay person, they know a trans person, and that they love this person is what is changing perspectives on gay and trans issues. Becoming visible is the first step to achieving equality. For oppressed groups to simply wait until someone gives them rights is ridiculous.

I recommend you read this: The Privilege of Politeness

To most non-LGBT people that's not activism. To put it bluntly the ultimate goal for any activist shouldn't be acceptance for what they are, it should be indifference for what makes them different. But a lot of activism today tries to achieve that separate but equal status that creates a lot of resentment among people who otherwise really wouldn't care, thus working against what I think should be the ultimate goal here.

Can you give an example of "separate but equal status?"

A blunt example would be the black person wants to be treated no differently than a white person except when being black might be of benefit to them and will take full advantage of that.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Phokus
send republicans to re-education camps like they hilariously fear Obama will enact soon?

I'd ask if you truly believed all Republicans are racist, and all racists are Republicans, but we all know what you believe, troll.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef
I have to say you're simply wrong here. The simplest form of activism is "I exist; I have human rights." Until the 1960s, gays were not vocal, we were not visible in public life. To any LGBT person, simply coming out of the closet is activism. Telling your family and friends that they know a gay person, they know a trans person, and that they love this person is what is changing perspectives on gay and trans issues. Becoming visible is the first step to achieving equality. For oppressed groups to simply wait until someone gives them rights is ridiculous.

I recommend you read this: The Privilege of Politeness

To most non-LGBT people that's not activism. To put it bluntly the ultimate goal for any activist shouldn't be acceptance for what they are, it should be indifference for what makes them different. But a lot of activism today tries to achieve that separate but equal status that creates a lot of resentment among people who otherwise really wouldn't care, thus working against what I think should be the ultimate goal here.

Can you give an example of "separate but equal status?"

A blunt example would be the black person wants to be treated no differently than a white person except when being black might be of benefit to them and will take full advantage of that.

By example I meant empirical data, a story or anecdote of some kind. Not your vague interpretation of race relations.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

Can you give an example of "separate but equal status?"

A blunt example would be the black person wants to be treated no differently than a white person except when being black might be of benefit to them and will take full advantage of that.

By example I meant empirical data, a story or anecdote of some kind. Not your vague interpretation of race relations.

So you are saying that's not what's going on with black/gay/whatever "activism" today? Or that it is going on and that it just doesn't breed resentment?

You know, I get the feeling "racist" is becoming used as a label not for people who dislike someone who is different from themselves, but for people who just don't give a crap either way.

 

[compuwiz1]

Eliminate the protected class bullshit
End the minority label - I'm white and depending on what part of what city I happen to be in, I'm a minority sometimes.
Silence Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Do not cater to or acknowlege, when the race card is played
Get rid of social programs that target minorities
Eliminate affirmative action programs
Eliminate white supremacist groups
Eliminate black supremacist groups
Stop enabling people to do the same things they've always done and get the same results they've always gotten - 4 generations of welfare come to mind. Being poor is something many people just do.
Let more whites become pimps
Let more whites become baptist preachers
Do away with BET
Eliminate the Negro College fund and just call it the "College Fund"
Eliminate the NAACP

See why we have what we have? We are still segregating ourselves, thru various programs. We should all be treated equally; same programs, same opportunities.

The handholding of certain ethnicity only weakens them, not making them stronger.

 

[Jaskalas]

Ban every single law that recognizes skin color. Justice is blind, or at least it should be.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
So you are saying that's not what's going on with black/gay/whatever "activism" today? Or that it is going on and that it just doesn't breed resentment?

No, social justice is not about giving one group privilege over others. I do not know anyone who wants to make black advantaged over other racial groups; we just want the end of racism. Similarly, feminists don't want Matriarchy, they want to end Patriarchy. LGBT activists aren't looking to create gay supremacy. We just want to be able to marry and adopt and live an open life without discrimination or anti-gay and anti-trans violence.

Finally, why would your resentment be a priority for us? Why should it be valued above our own resentment? Especially considering your resentment is based on misconceptions about social justice, and ours is based on actual oppression.

That you weigh the resentment of whites, men, heterosexuals, oppressors, over the rights of the oppressed is a testament to your privilege and narcissism.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Eliminate the protected class bullshit
End the minority label - I'm white and depending on what part of what city I happen to be in, I'm a minority sometimes.
Silence Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Do not cater to or acknowlege, when the race card is played
Get rid of social programs that target minorities
Eliminate affirmative action programs
Eliminate white supremacist groups
Eliminate black supremacist groups
Stop enabling people to do the same things they've always done and get the same results they've always gotten - 4 generations of welfare come to mind. Being poor is something many people just do.
Let more whites become pimps
Let more whites become baptist preachers
Do away with BET
Eliminate the Negro College fund and just call it the "College Fund"
Eliminate the NAACP

See why we have what we have? We are still segregating ourselves, thru various programs. We should all be treated equally; same programs, same opportunities.

The handholding of certain ethnicity only weakens them, not making them stronger.

Don't you think it's ridiculous that blacks, the people negatively effected by racism, must give up the few programs that attempt to correct for racism, but whites, the people who benefit from racism, must do nothing? Actually, you are saying that whites need more rights: we must remove the discrimination that prevents them from being pimps and baptist preachers. (If you didn't get it, that's sarcasm. Whites have no trouble being pimps or baptist preachers, and there are thousands if not millions of whites in those positions.)

Your post cannot be any more wrong.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Eliminate the protected class bullshit
End the minority label - I'm white and depending on what part of what city I happen to be in, I'm a minority sometimes.
Silence Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Do not cater to or acknowlege, when the race card is played
Get rid of social programs that target minorities
Eliminate affirmative action programs
Eliminate white supremacist groups
Eliminate black supremacist groups
Stop enabling people to do the same things they've always done and get the same results they've always gotten - 4 generations of welfare come to mind. Being poor is something many people just do.
Let more whites become pimps
Let more whites become baptist preachers
Do away with BET
Eliminate the Negro College fund and just call it the "College Fund"
Eliminate the NAACP

See why we have what we have? We are still segregating ourselves, thru various programs. We should all be treated equally; same programs, same opportunities.

The handholding of certain ethnicity only weakens them, not making them stronger.

Don't you think it's ridiculous that blacks, the people negatively effected by racism, must give up the few programs that attempt to correct for racism, but whites, the people who benefit from racism, must do nothing? Actually, you are saying that whites need more rights: we must remove the discrimination that prevents them from being pimps and baptist preachers. (If you didn't get it, that's sarcasm. Whites have no trouble being pimps or baptist preachers, and there are thousands if not millions of whites in those positions.)

Your post cannot be any more wrong.

No, sir, you have missed the whole point. Remove the things that keep us from being equals and maybe we can be. Some of my post was in Jest, but in all seriousness, take a good look at it. We are on equal footing. We live in the same free society and we all have access to education and jobs. If that were not the case, why are there so many immigrants that come to this country who do work hard and do achieve the American Dream, but yet so many who are born in this country fail to find this American Dream?
It's a mindset and social conditioning brought on by, you guessed it...race. There shouldn't be blacks, whites, yellows, reds...only people. And there is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage, but heritage and ethnicity should not imply entitlement either.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Eliminate the protected class bullshit
End the minority label - I'm white and depending on what part of what city I happen to be in, I'm a minority sometimes.
Silence Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Do not cater to or acknowlege, when the race card is played
Get rid of social programs that target minorities
Eliminate affirmative action programs
Eliminate white supremacist groups
Eliminate black supremacist groups
Stop enabling people to do the same things they've always done and get the same results they've always gotten - 4 generations of welfare come to mind. Being poor is something many people just do.
Let more whites become pimps
Let more whites become baptist preachers
Do away with BET
Eliminate the Negro College fund and just call it the "College Fund"
Eliminate the NAACP

See why we have what we have? We are still segregating ourselves, thru various programs. We should all be treated equally; same programs, same opportunities.

The handholding of certain ethnicity only weakens them, not making them stronger.

Don't you think it's ridiculous that blacks, the people negatively effected by racism, must give up the few programs that attempt to correct for racism, but whites, the people who benefit from racism, must do nothing? Actually, you are saying that whites need more rights: we must remove the discrimination that prevents them from being pimps and baptist preachers. (If you didn't get it, that's sarcasm. Whites have no trouble being pimps or baptist preachers, and there are thousands if not millions of whites in those positions.)

Your post cannot be any more wrong.

No, sir, you have missed the whole point. Remove the things that keep us from being equals and maybe we can be. Some of my post was in Jest, but in all seriousness, take a good look at it. We are on equal footing. We live in the same free society and we all have access to education and jobs. If that were not the case, why are there so many immigrants that come to this country who do work hard and do achieve the American Dream, but yet so many who are born in this country fail to find this American Dream?
It's a mindset and social conditioning brought on by, you guessed it...race.

Equal footing my ass:

Text
Text
Text

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Eliminate the protected class bullshit
End the minority label - I'm white and depending on what part of what city I happen to be in, I'm a minority sometimes.
Silence Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Do not cater to or acknowlege, when the race card is played
Get rid of social programs that target minorities
Eliminate affirmative action programs
Eliminate white supremacist groups
Eliminate black supremacist groups
Stop enabling people to do the same things they've always done and get the same results they've always gotten - 4 generations of welfare come to mind. Being poor is something many people just do.
Let more whites become pimps
Let more whites become baptist preachers
Do away with BET
Eliminate the Negro College fund and just call it the "College Fund"
Eliminate the NAACP

See why we have what we have? We are still segregating ourselves, thru various programs. We should all be treated equally; same programs, same opportunities.

The handholding of certain ethnicity only weakens them, not making them stronger.

Don't you think it's ridiculous that blacks, the people negatively effected by racism, must give up the few programs that attempt to correct for racism, but whites, the people who benefit from racism, must do nothing? Actually, you are saying that whites need more rights: we must remove the discrimination that prevents them from being pimps and baptist preachers. (If you didn't get it, that's sarcasm. Whites have no trouble being pimps or baptist preachers, and there are thousands if not millions of whites in those positions.)

Your post cannot be any more wrong.

No, sir, you have missed the whole point. Remove the things that keep us from being equals and maybe we can be. Some of my post was in Jest, but in all seriousness, take a good look at it. We are on equal footing. We live in the same free society and we all have access to education and jobs. If that were not the case, why are there so many immigrants that come to this country who do work hard and do achieve the American Dream, but yet so many who are born in this country fail to find this American Dream?
It's a mindset and social conditioning brought on by, you guessed it...race.

Equal footing my ass:

Text
Text
Text

Seek and you shall find. Someone wrote that life is only 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond or act about it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: n yusef

By example I meant empirical data, a story or anecdote of some kind. Not your vague interpretation of race relations.

So you are saying that's not what's going on with black/gay/whatever "activism" today? Or that it is going on and that it just doesn't breed resentment?

No, social justice is not about giving one group privilege over others. I do not know anyone who wants to make black advantaged over other racial groups; we just want the end of racism. Similarly, feminists don't want Matriarchy, they want to end Patriarchy. LGBT activists aren't looking to create gay supremacy. We just want to be able to marry and adopt and live an open life without discrimination or anti-gay and anti-trans violence.

Finally, why would your resentment be a priority for us? Why should it be valued above our own resentment? Especially considering your resentment is based on misconceptions about social justice, and ours is based on actual oppression.

That you weigh the resentment of whites, men, heterosexuals, oppressors, over the rights of the oppressed is a testament to your privilege and narcissism.

I'm saying it's that kind of attitude right there creates resentment among people who like me are otherwise just fine with you having your rights and equality. I may be white, male, and hetero, but I'm sure as hell not an oppressor, nor do I have the persecution complex that you seem to think is necessary to understand social injustices.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: n yusef
Don't you think it's ridiculous that blacks, the people negatively effected by racism, must give up the few programs that attempt to correct for racism, but whites, the people who benefit from racism, must do nothing?

Your position is racist. Equality will come over time, but it will never come if justice is not blind.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I'm saying it's that kind of attitude right there creates resentment among people who like me are otherwise just fine with you having your rights and equality. I may be white, male, and hetero, but I'm sure as hell not an oppressor, nor do I have the persecution complex that you seem to think is necessary to understand social injustices.

I don't have a persecution complex. I have a humanity complex. That you're against civil rights because I am offending you speaks volumes about your character, and questions the strength of your convictions for social justice.

You value your personal "resentment" over the rights of others. Think about that.