Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[esquared]

Ok, time to put this fuckwit on ignore.

 

[Zorba]

See, this is propaganda from the OTHER side. "Another couple million dead Americans"? Are you kidding me? There's is NO WAY! Even without vaccines, if every single person got infected in the US, at an IFR of 0.35% (and it's lower than that I believe) we'd barely get to a million in total. You're suggesting 2.6 million dead, which is pure fear-mongering and just as preposterous as the anti-vaxxers nonsense about the dangers of the vaccine.

Link to an unvaxxed IFR of 0.35% for a reputable source. The real number of 1 to 2% would be over 3.5M dead, bit including the very real affect of rationing of health care.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Your refusal to acknowledge that there is a middle ground shows that the propaganda with YOU is as strong as with the anti-vax nutballs.

Lol.

Here's your middle ground: If you have an immune disorder or are on immunosuppressants because of cancer or have an extreme allergy to something in the vaccine, you are excused from getting it. Everybody else get fucking vaccinated.

All your pussy ass excuses don't count. Get vaccinated.

 

[Pohemi]

Who is saying force them?

Strawmen. All of his many strawmen are saying it.

 

[eikelbijter]

Lol.

Here's your middle ground: If you have an immune disorder or are on immunosuppressants because of cancer or have an extreme allergy to something in the vaccine, you are excused from getting it. Everybody else get fucking vaccinated.

All your pussy ass excuses don't count. Get vaccinated.

So nobody wants to force others huh?
LOL

 

[eikelbijter]

Strawmen. All of his many strawmen are saying it.

Funny, there's a person just above your comment who'd like to have a word with you!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So nobody wants to force others huh?
LOL

Who is saying force them?

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

So nobody wants to force others huh?
LOL

You wanted a middle ground. I gave you one.

 

[desy]

Heres why
Ruby Rose rushed to hospital after surgical complications (msn.com)

We need hospitals for accidents, surgeries , births etc etc not to be filled with Covid patients sucking all the energy from our health systems

 

[nakedfrog]

So given the severity of the situation, we have to give a non-so-fully-tested vaccine instead of waiting. Ok then. So this is now the new precedent .

Ah, you'd rather us stay on lockdown and mask up while we wait? You're good with that? Somehow, I'm skeptical.

 

[abj13]

I did what? I did not make general statements about "vaccines", I've only talked about the Covid ones.

I'm not a doctor, that much is obvious, but very few of you are either, and I would pose to say that there is NO way a vaccine based on a part of a virus gives categorically better immunity than having been infected with the actual thing.

Yup, you did. Anybody who intended to write about SARS-CoV-2 would have specified as such. Even more telling is how you refuse to answer a simple question that extends your idiotic premise. Would you rather have rabies and HPV or the vaccines for each? It is a simple question. Please answer, your refusal demonstrates how you cannot even support your initial premise about vaccines vs natural infection.

Now, again, I'm not a doctor, but very few around here are. I'm always willing to learn. What I do know though, is that immunity is WAY more than antibodies alone, and to simplify the "effectiveness" of your bodies immunity to the level of some antibodies is foolish.

Fact is, natural immunity makes anitbodies against the nucleocapsid that are completely absent from the vaccine induced response.

Oh look at that. You don't think antibody immunity tells the whole story, then why did you bring up your ignorant statement regarding nucleocapsid antibodies? You cannot even keep your arguments straight.

Neutralizing antibody production is the the most important component for neutralization of a viral pathogen. This is why so many viral vaccines focus on neutralizing immunity, and in many cases also induces important aspects of the other arms of the immune response.

Some will bind to that RBD and prevent the virus from even entering a cell to start the replication. But others will recognize some antigen and be able to destroy a cell in which a virus has entered. If you have a good reference for the chemical mechanisms through which they are produced, I'd love to know. You're a doctor right? I'm serious, I'm NOT AN ANTI-VAXXER.

So explain what this means then:

"antibody can neutralize virus by: 1) blocking virus-host cell interactions or 2) recognizing viral antigens on virus-infected cells which can lead to antibody-dependent cytotoxic cells (ADCC) or complement-mediated lysis. "

from:
Immune Defenses - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf

Did you actually read your link? What do you think this means? "Alternatively, however, some antibodies can mask viral antigens on the surface of infected cells, thereby removing or covering antigens on the surfaces of these infected cells. " Seems like you didn't even read what you posted.

Better yet, please show us experimental evidence of the efficacy of antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid. Furthermore, explain to us, when they looked at people who died versus those who lived after COVID-19, those who died had enrichment of anti-nucleocapsid antibodies, while those who lived were enriched for the spike protein. If the nucleocapsid antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 are so important, why did the patients who died fail to make anti-spike antibodies and instead made nucleocapsid antibodies? If nucleocapsid antibodies matter so much that you had to post about it, why didn't they save all the patients who died from COVID-19?

What I do know is, that Cleveland Clinic published a study in which they state that:
"Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before. "

Is the Cleveland Clinic fake news now? I thought we believe in science?

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals

Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate the necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. Methods Employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System working in Ohio on Dec 16, 2020, the day COVID-19 vaccination was started, were included. Any...

www.medrxiv.org

You read this paper correct? What does the following mean?

"In a Cox proportional hazards regression model, after adjusting for the phase of the epidemic, vaccination was associated with a significantly lower risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection among those not previously infected (HR 0.031, 95% CI 0.015 – 0.061) but not among those previously infected (HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity). The absence of events among those who were previously infected, whether they received the vaccine or not, precluded accurate or precise estimates for the latter effect size."

If you understand it, you'll realize why it is a preprint publication and why it would fail in peer review. So please explain, what does a HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity mean? You read it, correct?

 

[Zorba]

Your refusal to acknowledge that there is a middle ground shows that the propaganda with YOU is as strong as with the anti-vax nutballs.

Because your "middle ground" includes a lot of unnecessary death, and not just by the people making the choices.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Strawmen. All of his many strawmen are saying it.

It has become some sort of bizzaro battle cry amongst the Deplorables. Deplorable I know is all afraid someone from the CDC is going to knock on his door and forcibly inject him.
When I said we both know that is not going to happen but if it did just don’t open the door.
He said something silly like they’ll wait outside until he leaves his house.

I mean if it came to forced vaccinations that is literally the most inefficient way that could be chosen to do them.
His wife & daughter are vaccinated he could just stay inside.
Edit: I think he is separated from his wife and his Son is out of State. Regardless he could call me Id drop food & supplies off for him.
Really crazy to think like this. Constant fear of some shadowy government that is going to force you to do something. Also we have to put aside how much manpower would they need to visit every single home that has someone unvaccinated the assumable visit every other home looking for the dude.

 

[eikelbijter]

Yup, you did. Anybody who intended to write about SARS-CoV-2 would have specified as such. Even more telling is how you refuse to answer a simple question that extends your idiotic premise. Would you rather have rabies and HPV or the vaccines for each? It is a simple question. Please answer, your refusal demonstrates how you cannot even support your initial premise about vaccines vs natural infection.




Oh look at that. You don't think antibody immunity tells the whole story, then why did you bring up your ignorant statement regarding nucleocapsid antibodies? You cannot even keep your arguments straight.

Neutralizing antibody production is the the most important component for neutralization of a viral pathogen. This is why so many viral vaccines focus on neutralizing immunity, and in many cases also induces important aspects of the other arms of the immune response.




Did you actually read your link? What do you think this means? "Alternatively, however, some antibodies can mask viral antigens on the surface of infected cells, thereby removing or covering antigens on the surfaces of these infected cells. " Seems like you didn't even read what you posted.

Better yet, please show us experimental evidence of the efficacy of antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid. Furthermore, explain to us, when they looked at people who died versus those who lived after COVID-19, those who died had enrichment of anti-nucleocapsid antibodies, while those who lived were enriched for the spike protein. If the nucleocapsid antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 are so important, why did the patients who died fail to make anti-spike antibodies and instead made nucleocapsid antibodies? If nucleocapsid antibodies matter so much that you had to post about it, why didn't they save all the patients who died from COVID-19?



You read this paper correct? What does the following mean?

"In a Cox proportional hazards regression model, after adjusting for the phase of the epidemic, vaccination was associated with a significantly lower risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection among those not previously infected (HR 0.031, 95% CI 0.015 – 0.061) but not among those previously infected (HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity). The absence of events among those who were previously infected, whether they received the vaccine or not, precluded accurate or precise estimates for the latter effect size."

If you understand it, you'll realize why it is a preprint publication and why it would fail in peer review. So please explain, what does a HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity mean? You read it, correct?

I appreciate the info, I really do. I want to learn more about this. I'll answer your questions.

First off, I did NOT make statements about vaccines in general, only about Covid; it's OTHERS who started to muddy the water by bringing up other pathogens as if you can make apples to apples comparisons. I'm not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Second, of course I'd rather have a rabies vaccine than the disease; same for HPV. Not sure what that has to do with THIS discussion, but I'll humor you anyway.

Third, I never said the Nucleocapsid antibody was IMPORTANT, I just brought it up to show that there is a MEASURABLE difference in immunity response. It's only one example and we didn't even talk about T-cells and other stuff.

I never said that the Cleveland Clinic study is the final truth, but it IS based on empirical evidence. There are MANY studies that show now that immunity from natural infection lasts a LONG time.

Let me ask you this: are you a doctor? Do we really need to discuss confidence intervals and statistics?

 

[pmv]

It has become some sort of bizzaro battle cry amongst the Deplorables. Deplorable I know is all afraid someone from the CDC is going to knock on his door and forcibly inject him.
When I said we both know that is not going to happen but if it did just don’t open the door.
He said something silly like they’ll wait outside until he leaves his house.

I mean if it came to forced vaccinations that is literally the most inefficient way that could be chosen to do them.
His wife & daughter are vaccinated he could just stay inside.

Cognitative dissonance for all sides in this one, I think

West Virginia offers free guns as incentive to get Covid vaccines

The new initiative seeks to increase vaccines among residents

www.independent.co.uk

Stumbled on that while googling for something like this - just need to adapt it to a long-barrel model suitable for drive-by vaccination-shootings...

"PED-O-JET" | Science Museum Group Collection

Multidose Jet Injection Apparatus, known as "PED-O-JET", hydraulically powered, with carrying case, by Scientific Equipment Manufacturing Corp, New York, U.S.A., 1970-1975

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

 

[eikelbijter]

Because your "middle ground" includes a lot of unnecessary death, and not just by the people making the choices.

OK, riddle me this: how many people will die? Not have died, that ship has sailed, but WILL die in the US? How many could be prevented if we all vaccinate?

Even more, how many will we save by vaccinating those who already had Covid?

 

[Zorba]

OK, riddle me this: how many people will die? Not have died, that ship has sailed, but WILL die in the US? How many could be prevented if we all vaccinate?

Even more, how many will we save by vaccinating those who already had Covid?

If no one else gets vaccinated? Tens of thousands more. If no one got it at all? Millions.

Before we even discussed denied and reduced care for other issues.

 

[eikelbijter]

If no one else gets vaccinated? Tens of thousands more. If no one got it at all? Millions.

Before we even discussed denied and reduced care for other issues.

So, just to have a written record, what do you believe the IFR for a population like the US is for Covid19? You said 1 to 3% right?

 

[abj13]

First off, I did NOT make statements about vaccines in general, only about Covid; it's OTHERS who started to muddy the water by bringing up other pathogens as if you can make apples to apples comparisons. I'm not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Second, of course I'd rather have a rabies vaccine than the disease; same for HPV. Not sure what that has to do with THIS discussion, but I'll humor you anyway.

I'm not a doctor, that much is obvious, but very few of you are either, and I would pose to say that there is NO way a vaccine based on a part of a virus gives categorically better immunity than having been infected with the actual thing.

I've quoted exactly what you've said everytime. You made the statement, not me. Don't get upset with me just because you made the above statement.

As it turns out, you don't even believe your own statement. You'd rather take the vaccine for HPV or Rabies. When I showed you how the COVID-19 vaccines generate neutralizing antibody titers that were 10x higher or 1000x fold higher in vaccinated individuals vs those with natural infection against SARS-CoV-2, your response was to ignore those facts. In fact, natural infection led to a very weak immune response in the second paper which could be boosted by vaccination leading to cross protection.

So when you talk about natural infection vs efficacy of vaccines, for any vaccine, including rabies, HPV, or COVID-19, you actually speaking from ignorance.

Third, I never said the Nucleocapsid antibody was IMPORTANT, I just brought it up to show that there is a MEASURABLE difference in immunity response. It's only one example and we didn't even talk about T-cells and other stuff.

I'm not a doctor, that much is obvious, but very few of you are either, and I would pose to say that there is NO way a vaccine based on a part of a virus gives categorically better immunity than having been infected with the actual thing. Not categorically, only perhaps in spike related immune response. Fact is, natural immunity makes anitbodies against the nucleocapsid that are completely absent from the vaccine induced response.

Haha. Keep trying to backpeddle on what you said. I've quoted for you again. You thought nucleocapsid antibodies were so important you had to post about them. Not only did you not realize there's an envelope to SARS-CoV-2 that makes them irrelevant, actual clinical studies demonstrate nucleocapsid antibodies are associated with death. You brought them up, not me.

I never said that the Cleveland Clinic study is the final truth, but it IS based on empirical evidence. There are MANY studies that show now that immunity from natural infection lasts a LONG time.

Let me ask you this: are you a doctor? Do we really need to discuss confidence intervals and statistics?

Empirical evidence of what? That is precisely why I asked you about that section. The fact you think it has empirical evidence of something means you don't even understand what the study is about and would rather quote something that isn't supported by evidence. You brought up the paper, so please explain exactly what one is supposed to conclude with data of (HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity). Even the authors admit this flaw (and is the reason I indicated earlier why the current preprint paper would never pass muster in peer-review). So what empirical evidence exists? You posted the paper, you must have read it and understood it because you posted it, correct?

 

[Zorba]

So, just to have a written record, what do you believe the IFR for a population like the US is for Covid19? You said 1 to 3% right?

I already said 1 to 2%. You meanwhile have yet you provide a link for your ultra low number.

US COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate: 1.3 Percent | Health Affairs Blog

A new study, released as a Fast Track Ahead Of Print article by Health Affairs, selected 116 counties, spanning 33 states, with a total of 40,835 confirmed cases and 1,620 confirmed deaths through April 20, 2020, to calculate that the IFR in the US is 1.3 percent, with significant variations...

www.healthaffairs.org

 

[eikelbijter]

I've quoted exactly what you've said everytime. You made the statement, not me. Don't get upset with me just because you made the above statement.

As it turns out, you don't even believe your own statement. You'd rather take the vaccine for HPV or Rabies. When I showed you how the COVID-19 vaccines generate neutralizing antibody titers that were 10x higher or 1000x fold higher in vaccinated individuals vs those with natural infection against SARS-CoV-2, your response was to ignore those facts. In fact, natural infection led to a very weak immune response in the second paper which could be boosted by vaccination leading to cross protection.

So when you talk about natural infection vs efficacy of vaccines, for any vaccine, including rabies, HPV, or COVID-19, you actually speaking from ignorance.




Haha. Keep trying to backpeddle on what you said. I've quoted for you again. You thought nucleocapsid antibodies were so important you had to post about them. Not only did you not realize there's an envelope to SARS-CoV-2 that makes them irrelevant, actual clinical studies demonstrate nucleocapsid antibodies are associated with death. You brought them up, not me.



Empirical evidence of what? That is precisely why I asked you about that section. The fact you think it has empirical evidence of something means you don't even understand what the study is about and would rather quote something that isn't supported by evidence. You brought up the paper, so please explain exactly what one is supposed to conclude with data of (HR 0.313, 95% CI 0 – Infinity). Even the authors admit this flaw (and is the reason I indicated earlier why the current preprint paper would never pass muster in peer-review). So what empirical evidence exists? You posted the paper, you must have read it and understood it because you posted it, correct?

Again, I only brought up the Nucleocapsid antibodies as an EXAMPLE of how there IS a difference in response. For you to suggest that we know the end of this is crazy; you're the only doctor, and you better be one if you're going there, that I've ever heard say that so definitively. Of course I did know it's an enveloped virus! Come on man, you're grasping at straws here.

There are MANY studies (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00203-6/fulltext) that show extensive and long lasting immunity from natural infection. You bring up ONE paper that shows lower and now that's the truth? You have to be kidding me!

You certainly have not "quoted" me, you've put words in my mouth.

 

[Amol S.]

Again, I only brought up the Nucleocapsid antibodies as an EXAMPLE of how there IS a difference in response. For you to suggest that we know the end of this is crazy; you're the only doctor, and you better be one if you're going there, that I've ever heard say that so definitively. Of course I did know it's an enveloped virus! Come on man, you're grasping at straws here.

There are MANY studies (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00203-6/fulltext) that show extensive and long lasting immunity from natural infection. You bring up ONE paper that shows lower and now that's the truth? You have to be kidding me!

You certainly have not "quoted" me, you've put words in my mouth.

The others want you to think for yourself the answer to why they are standing by what they are saying. It seems that you do not want to think about that, thus I will tell you the answer.

The answer is simple, instead of your proposed natural immunity that could lead to 50k to 100k more deaths, why not just vaccinate so we can have 5 to 10 deaths only from vaccine reactions. You are talking about lives not the money to develop the vaccine. The money to develop the vaccine is probably more than sufficent to develop the vaccines for maybe three times the population of Earth.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Again, I only brought up the Nucleocapsid antibodies as an EXAMPLE of how there IS a difference in response. For you to suggest that we know the end of this is crazy; you're the only doctor, and you better be one if you're going there, that I've ever heard say that so definitively. Of course I did know it's an enveloped virus! Come on man, you're grasping at straws here.

There are MANY studies (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00203-6/fulltext) that show extensive and long lasting immunity from natural infection. You bring up ONE paper that shows lower and now that's the truth? You have to be kidding me!

You certainly have not "quoted" me, you've put words in my mouth.

That is a study for medical professionals written by medical professionals using language that medical professionals use.
If you are not a medical Professional any conclusions taken from that paper could easily be incorrect.

 

[eikelbijter]

I already said 1 to 2%. You meanwhile have yet you provide a link for your ultra low number.

US COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate: 1.3 Percent | Health Affairs Blog

A new study, released as a Fast Track Ahead Of Print article by Health Affairs, selected 116 counties, spanning 33 states, with a total of 40,835 confirmed cases and 1,620 confirmed deaths through April 20, 2020, to calculate that the IFR in the US is 1.3 percent, with significant variations...

www.healthaffairs.org

An article from MAY 7 2020? Are u kidding me?

There are "studies" and articles out there that claim ALL kinds of numbers. Bottom line is this: we now have some REAL empirical evidence. I'll give you an example.

By early January 2021 the accepted estimate of infections in LA (found in the LA Times and everywhere else) was about 1 in 3. The number of dead at that point was about 14000, in a county with a little more than 10 million people. If we divide 14000/3333333 we get 0.0042, or an IFR of 0.42%. This was before ANY significant vaccination.

Look at Czechia; there the virus ran its course, very low vaccination rates. Now it's over and they have lost 0.28% of their population. If we assume 80% got infected that's an IFR of 0.35.

As a matter of fact, the only place in the WORLD that has lost more than 0.32% of the population is Peru and that because their medical system broke down and people were dying in the street.

Why don't you read this:

Inferring the COVID-19 IFR with a simple Bayesian evidence synthesis of seroprevalence study data and imprecise mortality data

Estimating the COVID-19 infection fatality rate (IFR) has proven to be particularly challenging –and rather controversial– due to the fact that both the data on deaths and the data on the number of individuals infected are subject to many different biases. We consider a Bayesian evidence...

www.medrxiv.org

There are MANY articles and studies showing wildly different numbers, but quoting one from May 2020 is just silly.

 

[abj13]

Again, I only brought up the Nucleocapsid antibodies as an EXAMPLE of how there IS a difference in response. For you to suggest that we know the end of this is crazy; you're the only doctor, and you better be one if you're going there, that I've ever heard say that so definitively. Of course I did know it's an enveloped virus! Come on man, you're grasping at straws here.

"we know the end of this" End of what? You don't even know what you are talking about. Not only is the nucleocapsid not present in the envelope of the virus, nucleocapsid antibodies are not a relevant response to infection. In fact, they are associated with worse outcomes. This is why, even though though most humans have been infected with season coronaviruses, the cross-reactive nucleocapsid antibodies offered no cross-protection.

Face it, you tried to fake being informed on the subject and have consistently demonstrated how ill-informed you are regarding the vaccines and immunology. Your statements regarding natural vs vaccine-induced immunity is simply ignorant and contradicts the science at large.

There are MANY studies (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00203-6/fulltext) that show extensive and long lasting immunity from natural infection. You bring up ONE paper that shows lower and now that's the truth? You have to be kidding me!

You certainly have not "quoted" me, you've put words in my mouth.

Please show me in that study where they compared the response to vaccination vs natural immunity. I'll wait. I posted two studies that directly compared the responses and included the variant strains. Furthermore, please address the collection date of the samples (April 3rd and July 9th 2020). How are those relevant to the current responses to the recent Alpha/Delta variants?

Interesting. Why aren't you talking about your pre-print paper and its empiric evidence it is supposed to generate? Funny how suddenly you don't want to address how crappy the data is in it. Why is that?