Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[eikelbijter]

Hahaha. This already has been posted. Can you explain why production of nucleocapsid antibodies are associated with death from COVID-19 while production of spike antibodies is associated with survival? Can you explain why cross-reactive nucleocapsid antibodies from seasonal coronaviruses offered no protection against COVID-19? These questions have already been posed, and all you can do is try to google quotes to sound informed.

Perhaps you should read papers and POSTS before making replies in this thread.

"Can you explain why production of nucleocapsid antibodies ARE associated with death from COVID-19", for someone so "smart" your English is not very good my friend. The production IS....

Anyways, you keep going completely off topic. I never said they are important, I just used them as an example to show the response is DIFFERENT.

Now, why don't YOU answer my question directly: are YOU a doctor? Serious question, because I DO want to be more informed and you've already helped me find some great information.

I do know that your carefully selected word "associated" doesn't imply causation. It shows that you are at least familiar with the scientific method.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm NOT arguing against vaccination! What are you talking about? I'm arguing against FORCED vaccination because I don't believe it'll make a substantial difference in the outcome at this point. Again with putting words in my mouth. Details MATTER guys!

That’s arguing against vaccination. This is not complicated.

There IS NO evidence that vaccination is more effective at preventing from 'those same" variants. We don't even know which variants are in the pipeline so we DON'T know. All we know is that vaccines increase the titer of some antibodies. YOU don't know what you're talking about.

Lol, look at you backpedal.

 

[eikelbijter]

Why don't you provide some evidence of such a claim. You made the statement. Please provide evidence. And please explain to all of us, why the T cell response is not critical for protection from a second infection. Certainly you've read that paper, given your knowledge about measuring T cell responses, correct?

I did not say T Cell response is not critical; as a matter of fact, I know it's very important. Again, moving the goal post.

 

[eikelbijter]

That’s arguing against vaccination. This is not complicated.


Lol, look at you backpedal.

My goodness I'm glad I'm not married to you!

 

[nakedfrog]

I'm NOT arguing against vaccination! What are you talking about?

Oh, really?

Vaccinating kids is silly AT THIS POINT in the US.

That looks a lot like arguing against vaccination.

 

[fskimospy]

It is very funny to read our new friend’s initial posts as compared to now. He seems to have really thought he was smarter and better informed than people here.

Whoops.

 

[abj13]

"Can you explain why production of nucleocapsid antibodies ARE associated with death from COVID-19", for someone so "smart" your English is not very good my friend. The production IS....

Anyways, you keep going completely off topic. I never said they are important, I just used them as an example to show the response is DIFFERENT.

Now, why don't YOU answer my question directly: are YOU a doctor? Serious question, because I DO want to be more informed and you've already helped me find some great information.

I do know that your carefully selected word "associated" doesn't imply causation. It shows that you are at least familiar with the scientific method.

Wow you are triggered. Not only do you resort to weak claims about grammar to hide your ignorance on the subject, now you have to resort to shooting the messenger. All of my posts are properly cited. So please, inform all of us, why those citations are incorrect? In fact, you quoted yet another post about real, published, and peer-reviewed data about outcomes between anti-nucleocapsid and anti-spike antibodies.

And your response to it?

______________(silence)_________________

 

[eikelbijter]

Oh, really?

That looks a lot like arguing against vaccination.

So it's only black and white huh? All or nothing? Is that really the world you wanna live in? It's crazy in my opinion. Do you wear a motorcycle helmet when you drive a car? Why not? It's safer!

 

[Meghan54]

So given the severity of the situation, we have to give a non-so-fully-tested vaccine instead of waiting. Ok then. So this is now the new precedent .

Why do you insist the vaccines weren’t fully tested?

 

[eikelbijter]

Wow you are triggered. Not only do you resort to weak claims about grammar to hide your ignorance on the subject, now you have to resort to shooting the messenger. All of my posts are properly cited. So please, inform all of us, why those citations are incorrect? In fact, you quoted yet another post about real, published, and peer-reviewed data about outcomes between anti-nucleocapsid and anti-spike antibodies.

And your response to it?

______________(silence)_________________

Are you a doctor? I've answered MOST of your questions directly and honestly. You keep moving the goal post, arguing things we're not even talking about. It's just a little strange to be lectured by folks who don't even have a proper command of the own language.

 

[abj13]

I did not say T Cell response is not critical; as a matter of fact, I know it's very important. Again, moving the goal post.

OBVIOUSLY deaths are not the only thing that counts; what they ARE is perhaps the best way, short of testing everybody for T cell immunity, to find out how many people have been infected.

Why should we measure T cell immunity when it is not predictive of who is protected from a second infection?

When pressed with real world experimental data, you sure want to avoid how it completely contradicts your statement about "T cell immunity."

 

[eikelbijter]

Why should we measure T cell immunity when it is not predictive of who is protected from a second infection?

When pressed with real world experimental data, you sure want to avoid how it completely contradicts your statement about "T cell immunity."

My God you guys, I didn't say we should, I didn't talk about predicting ANYTHING. I was ONLY talking about using T-cell tests to ESTIMATE how many have been infected. You guys are the Olympic CHAMPIONS at moving the goal posts.

 

[fskimospy]

My goodness I'm glad I'm not married to you!

Sure, I’m glad I’m not married to you either as I’m nearly certain you’re a man.

There is no point in talking shit to me because you can’t make me mad. I’ve tried to engage you in a serious way from the beginning but it’s pretty clear your perception of your own logic and objectivity exceeded your actual logic and objectivity.

 

[cytg111]

Omfg.
Whatever which way, if minds were gonna change they woulda changed already.
So. Back to being angry at the unvaxxed. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Zorba]

So this is interesting. "Zorba" posts this:




He throws out a number, links to a blog that "proves" it, which turns out to confuse the CFR and the IFR! This is as "fake news: as it gets, but NOBODY, NOBODY calls him on it! It's almost as if anything that fits your collective narrative gets a pass......

Grabbed a bad link while on my phone, but now have decided you aren't worth the effort. You are just going to through out a bunch of shitty pre-prints.

The CDC estimates around 115M infections, assuming every death has actually been counted (unlikely), that would be the IFR around 0.54%. Also would mean, if no one got vaccinated, there would be another ~1.3M documented deaths.

 

[eikelbijter]

So it's only black and white huh? All or nothing? Is that really the world you wanna live in? It's crazy in my opinion. Do you wear a motorcycle helmet when you drive a car? Why not? It's safer!

So if I argue against incarcerating 8 year olds, I'm against jailing ANYBODY? You've got to be kidding me...

 

[abj13]

Are you a doctor? I've answered MOST of your questions directly and honestly. You keep moving the goal post, arguing things we're not even talking about. It's just a little strange to be lectured by folks who don't even have a proper command of the own language.

Thanks for demonstrating to everyone, when faced with links to published and peer-reviewed experimental data that completely contradicts your points, you've got nothing to explain your contradictions. I've provided all the necessary citations to have a healthy discussion.

Your response is nothing to try pretend they don't exist. Can you explain any of the citations that have been provided to you over the past page of posts?

 

[eikelbijter]

Grabbed a bad link while on my phone, but now have decided you aren't worth the effort. You are just going to through out a bunch of shitty pre-prints.

The CDC estimates around 115M infections, assuming every death has actually been counted (unlikely), that would be the IFR around 0.54%. Also would mean, if no one got vaccinated, there would be another ~1.3M documented deaths.

"Grabbed a bad link" huh? And NOBODY here, including all our resident medical experts said ONE PEEP. Now you've reduced your estimate by 50-75% but I'M the one pulling figures out of thin air.....

 

[abj13]

My God you guys, I didn't say we should, I didn't talk about predicting ANYTHING. I was ONLY talking about using T-cell tests to ESTIMATE how many have been infected. You guys are the Olympic CHAMPIONS at moving the goal posts.

Why should we test people for T cell immunity when neutralizing antibody responses are very strongly predictive of immunity to severe disease from SARS-CoV-2?

 

[eikelbijter]

Thanks for demonstrating to everyone, when faced with links to published and peer-reviewed experimental data that completely contradicts your points, you've got nothing to explain your contradictions. I've provided all the necessary citations to have a healthy discussion.

Your response is nothing to try pretend they don't exist. Can you explain any of the citations that have been provided to you over the past page of posts?

So you're NOT a doctor! That is interesting.....

I've read most of the links you've shared, and thanks for them; I will spend more time on them. I still don't see how they contradict what I said, only how they contradict what YOU SAY I said.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Are you a doctor? I've answered MOST of your questions directly and honestly. You keep moving the goal post, arguing things we're not even talking about. It's just a little strange to be lectured by folks who don't even have a proper command of the own language.

Speaking of Doctors and keeping it dumb. An overwhelming majority of Doctors recommend vaccination for all who are eligible. Even those who may need an epi pen shot. They tell those people to bring their epi and let the staff know plus hang around a bit longer.
Why are you bickering over obscure research papers that are written for medical professionals to understand.
We have nearly every qualified Doctor on the planet recommending everyone even those who have recovered from COVID be vaccinated.

 

[cytg111]

I feel some of this is going on

https://xkcd.com/2494/

 

[eikelbijter]

Why should we test people for T cell immunity when neutralizing antibody responses are very strongly predictive of immunity to severe disease from SARS-CoV-2?

Saying the same thing twice doesn't change the fact that you are arguing something completely unrelated to what I was talking about. My only suggestion for those T cell tests was to try to estimate the infection rate. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[eikelbijter]

Speaking of Doctors and keeping it dumb. An overwhelming majority of Doctors recommend vaccination for all who are eligible. Even those who may need an epi pen shot. They tell those people to bring their epi and let the staff know plus hang around a bit longer.
Why are you bickering over obscure research papers that are written for medical professionals to understand.
We have nearly every qualified Doctor on the planet recommending everyone even those who have recovered from COVID be vaccinated.

There are MANY doctors who say vaccinating those who have been infected is foolish. I'm not talking about quack antivaxxers. Suneel Dhand is a perfect example. He has vaccinated HUNDREDS of his own patients against Covid. He is NOT an anti-vaxxer. There are many more....

 

[abj13]

So you're NOT a doctor! That is interesting.....

I've read most of the links you've shared, and thanks for them; I will spend more time on them. I still don't see how they contradict what I said, only how they contradict what YOU SAY I said.

Hahaha. When faced with data demonstrating 10x higher and 1000x antibody responses in vaccinated individuals vs those with natural infection against SARS-CoV-2, your response is only to run and hide from these facts. When faced with the fact that anti-nucleocapsid antibodies are associated with death and not relevant for prediction for protection against SARS-CoV-2, it is silence.

Its been fully demonstrated that when you said:

I'm not a doctor, that much is obvious, but very few of you are either, and I would pose to say that there is NO way a vaccine based on a part of a virus gives categorically better immunity than having been infected with the actual thing.

You were woefully uninformed on the subject.

That, and thinking a 95% confidence interval that ranged from 0 to infinity was meaningful, its amazing to see someone act as intellectually dishonest as you have been.