Conservative SC Rep. Doug Brannon to introduce bill to remove Confederate flag

[CU]

I'm failing to see how rebelling in an effort to keep slavery "make societies become more generous, more diverse, more compassionate and an individual more free".

Rebelling in general. Which some see the flag to stand for.

 

[CU]

You say that you can't tell her race after you said "She doesn't look like a white and she supports the flag". You then go on to say that what she is doing as that other race in supporting that flag is notable to you. She could be a white woman with a dark tan, right? Or did you consider that possibility?

Either way you were looking for a minority who supported the flag like you do and now you can't say that you found one, can you?

I wasn't looking for a minority, she just popped up while flipping through the pictures. Maybe the photographer was? No I can't, that is why I said I can't tell what race she is. If you had to guess based on her appearance what's your guess? I did consider dark tan, but that is very dark for a tan and I live at the beach, so there are a lot of tan people where I live. Although there was that women (up north?) that was in the news a year or so ago that tanned like crazy. She was that dark if not more. But that was kinda of extreme.

 

[CU]

He's all about circular reasoning and will therefore never be able to pull his head out of his ass!
Brian

I was showing how rebellion in and of itself is a virtue with a quote from a guy. How is that circular? I thought the quote explained why it was a virtue.

 

[WelshBloke]

Rebelling in general. Which some see the flag to stand for.

Ah, right!

So do you fly it alongside this...

Or this?

Edit: second one was supposed to be the black flag (working now). Which would actually be an excellent fit for what you described.

 

[WelshBloke]

I was showing how rebellion in and of itself is a virtue with a quote from a guy. How is that circular? I thought the quote explained why it was a virtue.

I'd very much take issue with rebellion being an intrinsically positive act.

I can think of plenty that were awful right from the beginning.

 

[DrDoug]

I wasn't looking for a minority, she just popped up while flipping through the pictures. Maybe the photographer was? No I can't, that is why I said I can't tell what race she is. If you had to guess based on her appearance what's your guess? I did consider dark tan, but that is very dark for a tan and I live at the beach, so there are a lot of tan people where I live. Although there was that women (up north?) that was in the news a year or so ago that tanned like crazy. She was that dark if not more. But that was kinda of extreme.

Then why did you bring her and her support for the Confederate flag up? What is the significance of her supporting it if she is white? That and your speculating that she is not is pure projection on your part. You admit now that you don't know what race she is...lol! So then again, why bring her up in the first place? Never mind, you'll just give a rambling bullshit answer and divert off into something else. I will tell you right now that I'm not buying what you are selling and I think you are so full of shit that your eyes are probably brown. For example: You have only met one racist person in your life and you said that they were Mexican?

Full. Of. Shit.

 

[DrDoug]

South Carolina State Senator Paul Thurmond, son of Strom Thurmond, on the topic of the Confederate flag and southern heritage.

He must have fell a ways from the family tree... he's a much better man than his father.

 

[MongGrel]

South Carolina State Senator Paul Thurmond, son of Strom Thurmond, on the topic of the Confederate flag and southern heritage.

He must have fell a ways from the family tree... he's a much better man than his father.

Any thing to actually get elected these days I guess.

$$$

 

[DrDoug]

Talk about a growing snowball...

Same with North Carolina and Tennessee, they're banning the Sons of the Confederacy license plates too. Georgia is looking to remove the flag from their plates since it can be done administratively by the Governor. I never thought I would live to see the day this started to happen.

I can't help but feel that something is going to go wrong because this is going so fast, almost without resistance.

ETA:

Any thing to actually get elected these days I guess.

$$$

It could be but since he's a Republican I don't see him gaining much from this with the constituents who voted for him.

And another ETA:

Speaking of Tennessee...

Removing the KKK Leaders bust too? Boy are they stepping up their game! What state is going to top that? C'mon guys, put up or shut up! :biggrin:

 

[fskimospy]

Already read most of that before. First time I heard the South wanted to create colonies though. Guess Lincoln and the South had that in common. Although Lincoln actually did send some black to an island off the coast of Haiti called the Ile à Vache to form a colony. It failed with many of the blacks dieing.

As for my response, I have pretty much answered it in my other posts. Quick summary. Wealthy slave owners told their assets (slaves) were going to be liquidated (freed), so they split and made sure to put that in the paper work. Money is the root of all evil. Symbols change over time and mean different things to different people. Majority rules so, I will accept the flag coming down. Don't judge every one who flies the rebel flag just on that simple fact. You may not like the cover of a book, but what is inside can be quite different.

And then the history of extreme racism that persisted after the civil war?

That shows pretty strongly that not only did the people who created the flag do so out of racism, but that it has kept that character throughout the years.

It's hard for me to imagine that after reading that you don't see why people clearly and reasonably associate that symbol with racism.

 

[sportage]

This is one nation and only the US flag and that states flag should be the only flags flown.
As for license plates, that is more of a personal matter.
Most states have themed license plates available, wild life, war themed, medical themed, US Veteran themed, and so on. So that could be iffy to demand Confederate themed license be banned.
But, as for removing civil war Confederate themed statues and art from inside government and state buildings I am against.
After all, that is indeed our history and some of the statues on display are quite remarkable as art.
To demand and remove statues inside buildings gives the impression we are pretending that part of history, the Confederacy and the civil war ... never happened.
I think statues are different from waving flags.
Especially Confederate themed statues displayed inside buildings, not displayed outside but only inside.
I think that can be thought of as history and art.
And we should never forget what actually happened in our history.
We need reminders. Statues and art placed inside of buildings provides that reminder.
Wanting to remove EVERYTHING makes me think of ISIS and the like groups over in the Middle East that destroyed historical artifacts, many hundreds and thousands of years old, because it offended their terrorist beliefs.
I don't think we should go that far.
Remove the Confederate flag, absolutely yes.
Ban Confederate license plates, probably a good idea, maybe.
Remove statues and Confederate or civil war artifacts displayed "inside" government and state buildings? No way.
That is our history in art. And as far as the art aspect goes, most can be quite impressive.
Lets do not get too politically correct. We're all grownups. We should know the difference.
.
.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Wow!!! For once Sportage I agree with a post of yours.

The way you post still makes my eyes hurt but I agree with the content.

 

[Brainonska511]

Most states have themed license plates available, wild life, war themed, medical themed, US Veteran themed, and so on. So that could be iffy to demand Confederate themed license be banned.

Under the recent SCOTUS case against Texas, license plates are considered government speech, so the government can ban the issuance of plates they find offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_v._Texas_Division,_Sons_of_Confederate_Veterans

 

[Exterous]

For those of you still holding onto the heritage argument. Listen to this speech by SC state Sen Paul Thurmond-R. For those of you who don't know who he is look it up. Makes speech even more poignant. This is the ONLY speech Republicans should give on the issue.

http://player.vimeo.com/external/131580419.sd.mp4?profile_id=112&oauth2_token_id=63192875

For whatever reason that link doesn't work for me but what I've heard from actual historians is that there IS a legitimate heritage argument. For example:

COSKI: From the end of the war until 1948, the flag was primarily used by Confederate heritage groups. To them it was a memorial of the Confederate's heroes and its debt.

MONTAGNE: So there is some truth in this argument by defenders of the flag that it's a symbol of their heritage not primarily a racial division. I - there's an expression that gets used - heritage not hate.

COSKI: Exactly. That's the bumper sticker shorthand. And, yes, there's of course this truth to it, and it has retained that meaning even as it's acquired new ones.

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/23/416736897/the-long-and-divisive-history-of-the-confederate-flag

 

[sportage]

Under the recent SCOTUS case against Texas, license plates are considered government speech, so the government can ban the issuance of plates they find offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_v._Texas_Division,_Sons_of_Confederate_Veterans

I don't know about Texas, but considering it is Texas, their plates probably used the "N" word and something like FAGS BURN IN HELL. So considering its Texas, nothing surprises me there.

But again, I really do not want to see art displayed inside of buildings removed.
That is different than a flag waving outside.

 

[sportage]

PS. One thing I noticed on media news.
The people, citizens, they have up there mad as hell at the idea of removing the Confederate flag, seem like the most red neck bigoted racist out there.
They are not mad about a flag.
They have that hate in their eyes for minorities. Especially blacks.
And for them, this flag is their hero.
You know when some guy turns red faced with bulging veins and wild eyed yelling at some CNN reporter about this idea of removing the Confederate flag, well....
It's not just the issue of a flag, for them.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don't know about Texas, but considering it is Texas, their plates probably used the "N" word and something like FAGS BURN IN HELL. So considering its Texas, nothing surprises me there.

Maybe you should educate yourself before you make ignorant statements. Here's the personalized plates you can purchase for a Texas vehicle.

http://www.myplates.com/

 

[CU]

Ah, right!

So do you fly it alongside this...

Or this?

Edit: second one was supposed to be the black flag (working now). Which would actually be an excellent fit for what you described.

If rebelling against the US the confederate flags would probably make more sense as it was flown by the largest group of people to try and split up the Union and fight the federal government. But, that's just me. The black flag has been used for many things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_black_flags. It really depends on where you are rebelling. Everyone knows that the confederate flag is related to slavery and racism. They also know people were fighting against the federal government. It doesn't have to mean both or just one thing all the time. Look at all the uses the black flag has had.

 

[CU]

Then why did you bring her and her support for the Confederate flag up? What is the significance of her supporting it if she is white? That and your speculating that she is not is pure projection on your part. You admit now that you don't know what race she is...lol! So then again, why bring her up in the first place? Never mind, you'll just give a rambling bullshit answer and divert off into something else. I will tell you right now that I'm not buying what you are selling and I think you are so full of shit that your eyes are probably brown. For example: You have only met one racist person in your life and you said that they were Mexican?

Full. Of. Shit.

Because it was something you don't see much. So, I found it interesting. I even said it would be interesting to hear her side of it. If she is white we have already heard their reasons good and bad. So, it is of little interest. Also in my original post I said I couldn't tell what race she was. So, I have always admitted it, LOL. I assumed she was not white based on her skin tone. As I don't know her there is no real way for me to find out. What race do you think she is based on skin tone and physical appearance? No diverting. The Mexican story you asked about is in the Walmart thread. Sorry, but it is true. I was blown away by his actions.

Below is my original post about the lady.

http://www.postandcourier.com/apps/...997&Ref=PH&Item=15&NewTbl=1&MaxW=640&MaxH=430

She doesn't look like a white and she supports the flag. Not sure what her race is maybe African American or Native American. It is hard for me to tell. Anyway, I just found it interesting, because you don't see that often. Wrong or right she gets my vote for bravery. I don't think I would want to stand up there and have hundreds of people yelling at me and calling me names.

Edit. Found another picture of her. It would be interesting to hear her side of it.
http://www.postandcourier.com/apps/...997&Ref=PH&Item=23&NewTbl=1&MaxW=640&MaxH=430

 

[CU]

And then the history of extreme racism that persisted after the civil war?

That shows pretty strongly that not only did the people who created the flag do so out of racism, but that it has kept that character throughout the years.

It's hard for me to imagine that after reading that you don't see why people clearly and reasonably associate that symbol with racism.

I do see why people see it as racism. I always have. I also see why people see it as other thing also. For example it was on the General Lee (car not guy). I don't believe the show had it there for racism, but as a way to show another connection to the South. I don't think Bo and Luke were ever shown as racists. But it has been awhile.

 

[CU]

I'd very much take issue with rebellion being an intrinsically positive act.

I can think of plenty that were awful right from the beginning.

True his use of the word virtue is a little out of place, but virtues are based on morals and some people have very poor morals. But, in the general sense moral / good people rebelling is a positive act as they would be rebelling against evil. So, if a moral / good person used the flag to represent rebellion I don't really have a problem with it. Just ask the person why they use it, if you think they may be racist. You might learn something about that person.

 

[DrDoug]

For whatever reason that link doesn't work for me but what I've heard from actual historians is that there IS a legitimate heritage argument. For example:



http://www.npr.org/2015/06/23/416736897/the-long-and-divisive-history-of-the-confederate-flag

1948... Harry Truman... Pissed, newly minted "Dixiecrats" because of Truman moving to integrate the military... The Dixiecrats hoist Beauregard's Battle Flag at their convention and select Strom Thurmond as their Presidential candidate... The flag is adopted by southern racists and politicians angry at integration, the Civil Rights movement and the Federal government.

Interesting that 1948 was the year they noted for the resurgence in the popularity of that flag, eh? I wonder why...

 

[CitizenKain]

South Carolina State Senator Paul Thurmond, son of Strom Thurmond, on the topic of the Confederate flag and southern heritage.

He must have fell a ways from the family tree... he's a much better man than his father.

Being a better person then Strom Thurmond isn't exactly a high bar.

 

[CU]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/s-c-confederate-symbols-across-nation/index.html
Talks about how many confederate symbols are across the US and how different people view them and what should be done about them. I don't believe we should tear down all the monuments and rename everything. I hope and believe I am still in the majority with that statement. Only the future will tell for sure though.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/23/politics/confederate-flag-symbols-capitol-hill-reaction/index.html
They are even in the Capitol. Learn something new everyday.

 

[HomerJS]

Being a better person then Strom Thurmond isn't exactly a high bar.

So I guess he was one of the people who "co-opted" the flag?