• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Confirmed - i9 9900k will have soldered IHS, no more toothpaste TIM

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
1,511
72
91
Here.

Rumor: Report Claims Intel Core i9-9900K Will Finally Use Solder.

Don't know what to make of it.
 

epsilon84

Senior member
Aug 29, 2010
996
704
136
Makes sense if they want to hit those clocks that are being touted - 4.7GHz all core turbo. They'll need every trick in the book and this is is one of the easier ways to 'boost' performance.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,457
641
126
Lets hope so. After all these years of people griping about TIM, will be interesting to see how much difference solder actually makes. My bet is really not that much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ryan20fun

epsilon84

Senior member
Aug 29, 2010
996
704
136
Lets hope so. After all these years of people griping about TIM, will be interesting to see how much difference solder actually makes. My bet is really not that much.
Probably not as much as full delid +LM, but should be good for a 10C reduction, maybe more on a high power chip like the 9900K.

FWIW delidding + liquid metal typically shaves about 15C off load temps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thor86

aigomorla

Cases and Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
18,164
915
126
They moved away from solder not because it was cheaper, which is the soap box myth most people tout.
It was because as the waffer got thinner, and the node process smaller, the chip became more fragile.
They noticed the metal solder had a higher instance of damaging the die from the constant phase change stress (going from liquid state to solid ... on and off on a PC), and hence changed to paste.

Although it came at a cost of performance, to intel's eyes, the performance prices was enough merit over the longevity.
This is why they changed to paste.

And now i will see a lot of people start ranting because they can no longer delid the cpu, and run the die naked.
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,516
737
136
Yet,AMD seems to not have any issues using solder,unless now the internet is saying AMD soldered CPUs will suddenly go kaput in a few years(I think that is unlikely) and that everyone should start avoiding the Core i7 9700K and Core i9 9900K too. What is the likelihood the soldered Intel CPUs will last as long as the ones with TIM,or is it now the case,they are more likely to fail??
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ryan20fun

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
3,294
2,084
136
They moved away from solder not because it was cheaper, which is the soap box myth most people tout.
It was because as the waffer got thinner, and the node process smaller, the chip became more fragile.
They noticed the metal solder had a higher instance of damaging the die from the constant phase change stress (going from liquid state to solid ... on and off on a PC), and hence changed to paste.

Although it came at a cost of performance, to intel's eyes, the performance prices was enough merit over the longevity.
This is why they changed to paste.

And now i will see a lot of people start ranting because they can no longer delid the cpu, and run the die naked.
Wow, the solder melts when the CPU is stressed. This is news to almost everyone. Guess I've jumped realities.
 

aigomorla

Cases and Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
18,164
915
126
....
This site explains it in more detail then me...
Maybe links and picture should of been given with all the intel bashing this forum has lately...

https://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/



So yeah, after the many thermal cycles, or so eventually it leads to micro cracks.



My honest take on it...

Solder is nice as it did improve thermal performance.
Lets be realistic here, the Thermal Conductivity for metal is in a factor of at least 10x greater then that of any oil or paste..
But to a non overclocker, i dont think that thermal conductivity is important.
Infact to most non overclocker, which tends to be either basic consumer machines, or office machines, i think longivity and more robust engineering is probably preferred.

To an overclocker tho, a moderate one at the least, that thermal conductivity can spell anywhere near 15-20% headroom.
So, i honestly feel, all "K"'s should of been soldered. A overclocker is not looking to keep the chip long term, and would rather want that thermal performance.

However putting back solder on the cpu to me is honestly mixed as we got easy methods of deliding a cpu. There are kits now to make it easy, and the razor with silicon wedges like how i did my old Opty's back in the days are no longer needed.

If i was going to overclock the chip to hell, i would most likely delid it, skip putting the IHS back on completely, slap a flat waterblock on it with a direct die kit like these:





Because the IHS is to me another thermal barrier which i would want to get rid of.
And a Soldered CPU would make it more difficult to do so....

But *shrug* that is just me....
 
Last edited:

Hi-Fi Man

Senior member
Oct 19, 2013
590
112
106
They moved away from solder not because it was cheaper, which is the soap box myth most people tout.
It was because as the waffer got thinner, and the node process smaller, the chip became more fragile.
They noticed the metal solder had a higher instance of damaging the die from the constant phase change stress (going from liquid state to solid ... on and off on a PC), and hence changed to paste.

Although it came at a cost of performance, to intel's eyes, the performance prices was enough merit over the longevity.
This is why they changed to paste.

And now i will see a lot of people start ranting because they can no longer delid the cpu, and run the die naked.
What are you talking about? Solder's melting point is far higher than the Tj. max of the CPU. The solder isn't changing state.

I believe the argument you are trying to make is about micro fractures (almost like cold solder joints) in the solder causing damage to the die. I don't think this argument has any merit though as there hasn't been any proof that soldered chips have a shorter life span. In fact it seems more to the contrary; I've had an Athlon 64 X2 (Brisbane) essentially break on me because the paste dried up and caused the temperatures to sky rocket no matter what cooling was used. It wasn't until I delided the CPU and used it bare die that the temperatures returned to normal.

At the end of the day it's all about cost just as it's always been. Intel has been using paste for it's CPUs for a long time, much longer than Ivy bridge. For example, a Core 2 Duo E7200 uses paste but a Core 2 Duo E8200 is soldered. It obviously wasn't something technical that caused Intel to use paste for the E7200, it was price as they're almost the same exact chips.
 

Hi-Fi Man

Senior member
Oct 19, 2013
590
112
106
....
This site explains it in more detail then me...
Maybe links and picture should of been given with all the intel bashing this forum has lately...

https://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/



So yeah, after the many thermal cycles, or so eventually it leads to micro cracks.



My honest take on it...

Solder is nice as it did improve thermal performance.
Lets be realistic here, the Thermal Conductivity for metal is in a factor of at least 10x greater then that of any oil or paste..
But to a non overclocker, i dont think that thermal conductivity is important.
Infact to most non overclocker, which tends to be either basic consumer machines, or office machines, i think longivity and more robust engineering is probably preferred.

To an overclocker tho, a moderate one at the least, that thermal conductivity can spell anywhere near 15-20% headroom.
So, i honestly feel, all "K"'s should of been soldered. A overclocker is not looking to keep the chip long term, and would rather want that thermal performance.

However putting back solder on the cpu to me is honestly mixed as we got easy methods of deliding a cpu. There are kits now to make it easy, and the razor with silicon wedges like how i did my old Opty's back in the days are no longer needed.

If i was going to overclock the chip to hell, i would most likely delid it, skip putting the IHS back on completely, slap a flat waterblock on it with a direct die kit like these:





Because the IHS is to me another thermal barrier which i would want to get rid of.
And a Soldered CPU would make it more difficult to do so....

But *shrug* that is just me....
If you read the article it says these cracks are caused by,
"der8auer" said:
Intense thermal cycling will damage the solder preform significantly. Tensile stress inside the solder preform will lead to voids (Figure 10).

Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.
Now I don't know about you but I sure as hell have never heard of anybody doing that to a CPU.

On top of all this, it's in der8auer's interest that Intel keep using paste. Wasn't he the one who popularized tools for delidding?

EDIT: The guy has his own store for these darn delid tools. Seems like an article filled with interesting facts spun to spread FUD.
 
Last edited:

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,516
737
136
So what is being said is AMD after it moved to a finfet process,managed to find a way to economically solder its chips fine,and yet Intel with so much dosh,could not find a way?? I doubt that.

Now all of a sudden Intel has made a breakthrough in chip solder,so it can solder the Core i7 9700K and Core i9 9900K? I doubt that.

So are people saying AMD managed to beat Intel at soldering methodologies which won't damage finfet CPUs,or are they saying AMD CPUs are made using more hardy methods or are they saying the AMD CPUs,and the soldered Intel CPUs are suddenly going to go bang within two years??

Basically Intel has disagreed with everyone who said soldering was not possible with finfet chips,so why are people now bashing Intel for using it?

The Core i7 9700K and Core i9 9900K are going to be under more thermal stress than normal chips,so Intel vehemently disagrees that it will make the chips less reliable as I expect they will have the same warranty as other Intel chips. Could you also imagine what would happen if all the Core i7 9700K,Core i9 9900K and AMD Ryzen chips started going kaput within a few years??

That would be class action lawsuit city. I don't think Intel are that stupid.
 
Last edited:

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
8,288
1,355
126
Basically Intel has disagreed with everyone who said soldering was not possible with finfet chips,so why are people now bashing Intel for using it.
Intel hasn't said anything to that effect - only that using solder increased the RMA rates.
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,516
737
136
Intel hasn't said anything to that effect - only that using solder increased the RMA rates.
Well apparently Intel thinks solder now does not have that problem,as they are soldering their K series chips,which consume the most power of the consumer line,which by extension will cause more issues with thermal cycling if its true. AMD apparently does not agree as all their Ryzen CPUs,and the Threadripper CPUs are all soldered and their cheapo CPUs don't have it. AMD has far less leeway for increased RMA rates than Intel due to their financial situation anyway - they should be using thermal compound as their margins are lower.

Also,people are literally bashing Intel for using solder now and now trying to spread fear that the CPUs are more likely to fail. So are people saying we should buy a Core i7 8700K instead of a Core i7 9700K,since the solder "might" cause more problems?? People worry too much - I hate to think how many of you would have felt about pencil mods and old Athlons which would catch fire if the cooler failed! ;)
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,120
325
126
Well apparently Intel thinks solder now does not have that problem,as they are soldering their K series chips,which consume the most power of the consumer line,which by extension will cause more issues with thermal cycling if its true. AMD apparently does not agree as all their Ryzen CPUs,and the Threadripper CPUs are all soldered and their cheapo CPUs don't have it. AMD has far less leeway for increased RMA rates than Intel due to their financial situation anyway - they should be using thermal compound as their margins are lower.
I wish people would start reading a bit,from the link above that explains it all.
Void and micro crack occurrence is mainly affected by the solder area – thus the DIE size. Small DIE size (below 130 mm²) e. g. Skylake will facilitate the void occurence significantly. However, CPUs with a medium to large DIE size (above 270 mm²) e. g. Haswell-E show no significant increase of micro cracking during thermal cycling (Figure 12).
On small dies (what you call cheapo for AMD) neither intel or amd uses solder for this reason.
Intel's 4/8 cpus were less then half the size of the 8 core FX series while doing the same work,the risk is too high to use solder on such small surfaces because the heat can't spread evenly.
Now intel's 8 core has enough die area so they will use solder,it's that simple.

Sauce:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/5st41v/speculation_i_tried_to_make_this_little/

 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,516
737
136
I wish people would start reading a bit,from the link above that explains it all.
Intense thermal cycling will damage the solder preform significantly. Tensile stress inside the solder preform will lead to voids (Figure 10).

Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.
He is an extreme overclocker. He is measuring a 180C delta.

Sorry,but you haven't read that article as much as you think.


Also:



Void and micro crack occurrence is mainly affected by the solder area – thus the DIE size. Small DIE size (below 130 mm²) e. g. Skylake will facilitate the void occurence significantly. However, CPUs with a medium to large DIE size (above 270 mm²) e. g. Haswell-E show no significant increase of micro cracking during thermal cycling (Figure 12).
Intel was using TIM since the days of Ivy Bridge. Look at the die sizes - 4C all above 150MM2. Intel Coffee Lake 8 cores are mostly like to be around 180MM2 from my estimations.

So Ryzen is under 270MM2 and so is 8C Coffee Lake. So they are going to have problems??

Also if die size is the problem,then Intel HEDT should be soldered,it isn't though and those are above 300MM2.

At the end of the day it's all about cost just as it's always been. Intel has been using paste for it's CPUs for a long time, much longer than Ivy bridge. For example, a Core 2 Duo E7200 uses paste but a Core 2 Duo E8200 is soldered. It obviously wasn't something technical that caused Intel to use paste for the E7200, it was price as they're almost the same exact chips.
The E8200 die size was around 100MM2. Wow,that is why those E8000 chips failed so quickly,eh? :p

I honestly don't understand what some of you are trying to do here - someone wanting to buy a Core i7 9700K or Core i9 9900K are now going to get worried that since the chip is under 270MM2,it is going to have a greater chance of failing.

It is going to be fine lurkers - ignore all the naysayers!! By the time the chips has problems it will be out of date!!
 
Last edited:

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
8,288
1,355
126
Well apparently Intel thinks solder now does not have that problem,as they are soldering their K series chips
Only the 8 core, and they are also effectively charging more. Plus it's basically a marketing gimmick, considering they are selling Skylake for the fourth time now.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
3,294
2,084
136
Well apparently Intel thinks solder now does not have that problem,as they are soldering their K series chips,which consume the most power of the consumer line,which by extension will cause more issues with thermal cycling if its true. AMD apparently does not agree as all their Ryzen CPUs,and the Threadripper CPUs are all soldered and their cheapo CPUs don't have it. AMD has far less leeway for increased RMA rates than Intel due to their financial situation anyway - they should be using thermal compound as their margins are lower.

Also,people are literally bashing Intel for using solder now and now trying to spread fear that the CPUs are more likely to fail. So are people saying we should buy a Core i7 8700K instead of a Core i7 9700K,since the solder "might" cause more problems?? People worry too much - I hate to think how many of you would have felt about pencil mods and old Athlons which would catch fire if the cooler failed! ;)
No one is bashing Intel for using solder. I don't see where you got that idea. In my case, I'm bashing all the posters who spent the last year ridiculing those of us, who were bashing Intel for NOT using solder on their high end CPUs, They claimed all sort of technical reasons why solder is bad, and now have gone silent.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY