Confederate Flag Waving Racist Gets Put To Sleep

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Leyawiin

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2008
3,204
52
91
White Southerners have really been under the microscope lately as if they all tote the Confederate flag around, but as a group they're the most overly patriotic, "Support Our Troops", "Old Glory" waving bunch in the country. Country music is rife with all the symbolism.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Obviously what I said and the point I was making is way above your head.

No, I got the point you think you were making. A horrible thing happened and people in that area rallied in support, including whites. And that considering the racial issues on other parts of the country, that South Carolina handled it much better. That's great, but the problem is the point you think you're making is bullshit. It's the same horseshit that Southerners have been trying to claim for decades to pretend that much of their history was incredibly different and that race relations aren't just fine they're better in the South (when that is total and complete bullshit; which is not to say that it is better everywhere else).

And furthermore, because of their wanton willful ignorance there's a large portion of the population that has been trying to downplay the awful things in our history. That's why people trying to say "just because this one racist piece of shit killed people doesn't make the flag about that!" are wrong because they've been deluding themselves about what that flag has stood for all along. They think this singular act triggered all of this against the Confederate flag, when that isn't the case at all. And you were missing out on why this has become a major issue once again (and it rings especially hollow for someone to say "South Carolina is better at dealing with race, people should mind their own business" when history shows that to be an incredibly absurd thing to say).

Racism still exists because it's self voluntary. Self segregation is proof of this, where do people choose to live? With others like them. Even when public policy guides "diversity", studies show it fails miserably and will never work, even when run over a million times in a computer model from an academically acclaimed institution.
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2013/study-asks-is-a-better-world-possible/

Need further proof? There's no better proof than where people choose where to make one of the biggest investments of their lives (a house). Look at a map of racial "diversity" in the country:
http://www.coopercenter.org/demographics/Racial-Dot-Map

True diversity (i.e. getting people to completely mix geographically) doesn't work and never will. People will always gravitate to others more like them, this has been proven to be human nature and it will need to be accepted as fact rather than theory sooner or later as more and more studies validate it. We are all inherently "racist" to some degree.

I'm not really sure why you quoted me in that post since yours has very little to do with mine (basically other than the word racism it has almost nothing). It's like you think all racism is on the same level. Don't you think there's just a little bit of a difference in the racism those hint at and the enslavement and subjugation of a race?

That first study is about much more than racism too by the way, hope you realize that.

As for that second link, I'm guessing if we charted populations over time we'd find more segregation going back (with there being historical instances where there was intentional segregation that would throw a kink in things and setting things back). So really it might be that over time we see natural integration (or at least maybe racial, I'm guessing social class would still occur, although that's also kinda the point is that certain races have been shown to have disadvantages achieving more diversity in that regard).

What you're missing out is that overall, we're actually trending towards people having more in common with each other. So if people gravitate towards similar people, and we trend towards everyone being more similar, what is the end result?

Racism is still an issue, but I'd guess most discrimination is more about socio-economic class now. Of course that goes back to things like the Civil War and mass immigrations and the growing pains we've experienced from that. The fact that we had a certain specific race held back in that regard is kinda one of the points of why the Confederate flag is total bullshit. People keep talking about the Civil War and slavery like that was all that it was and thus the Civil War ended that but that's not even remotely close to being true. And no, it wasn't just the South doing that either, but again, most of the nation started to move away from it while the South dug in their heels and demanded that they should have the right to be racist and they used that flag as a symbol for that as well. Maybe if some of you people stopped and realized that for more of American History that blacks were secondary citizens denied the same rights as whites than they weren't, you might understand why people are still hypersensitive about it, even with the vastly improved relative state that things are in now.

We're "inherently" animals as well, yet somehow we've moved beyond that. Plus your belief about inherent racism is less about race and more about a natural aversion to differing creatures and other things that can get baked into our genetics and that takes a long time to overcome. And even in spite of that, we've absolutely outright proven that it can be overcome (hell the fact that you're talking about how people tend to accumulate in populations of similar race and class alone kinda shows how far it has come in this country), so acting like nothing can and thus should be done about it is just plain wrong.

Of course there's a lot of other things that could be discussed about all of that, although I'm not sure why you're acting like me condemning the enslavement and subjugation of blacks warrants you bringing up attempts at integration of communities like somehow your "we're inherently racist" argument made slavery ok or justifies racism in general. But none of that is frankly really relevant to this thread.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
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White Southerners have really been under the microscope lately as if they all tote the Confederate flag around, but as a group they're the most overly patriotic, "Support Our Troops", "Old Glory" waving bunch in the country. Country music is rife with all the symbolism.

The issue is that you don't see that to them that's largely the same. In their minds they believed so strongly in America that they made the Confederacy to defend it. And denying them the right to celebrate their Southern Pride is the same as denying them their pride in America.

And that's also kinda the point with a lot of that symbolism in general. Much of it is bullshit (acting like Toby Keith is using it because he's a true patriot and not to appeal to these people so he can make tons of money for instance).

Not only that, but as the phrase says about learning history so you don't repeat it, blind nationalism tends to not be a good thing (study 20th century history for some idea on how that can work out). It's also sad how few of them notice the similarities between the "patriotism" going on in Russia and what they're wanting.

Notice how we're seeing this "states' rights" arguments over a lot of issues (like gay marriage)? There's a reason why they keep trying to brush off the actual issues by labeling it as such. Also how they're also trying to claim they're defending their freedom of religion, when in reality they're just mad that they're not being allowed to force their religious beliefs onto others?
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,387
5,003
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No, I got the point you think you were making. A horrible thing happened and people in that area rallied in support, including whites. And that considering the racial issues on other parts of the country, that South Carolina handled it much better. That's great, but the problem is the point you think you're making is bullshit. It's the same horseshit that Southerners have been trying to claim for decades to pretend that much of their history was incredibly different and that race relations aren't just fine they're better in the South (when that is total and complete bullshit; which is not to say that it is better everywhere else).

Yes we in the Southern US do handle strife much much better than the "other" states. The proof is in the pudding. Deny all you wish.

My point is valid and the evidence was all over the news.

I have never denied any of our history. Good or bad. It is what it is.

If race relations are so much worse here why didn't we see all the strife as was so blatantly displayed in those fine upstanding northern and western states? Why?

Do you live in South Carolina? have you ever?

If yes how long and where?

If no you are basing your opinion on nothing.

Sorry your feeling were hurt over it.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
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White Southerners have really been under the microscope lately as if they all tote the Confederate flag around, but as a group they're the most overly patriotic, "Support Our Troops", "Old Glory" waving bunch in the country. Country music is rife with all the symbolism.

You might be surprised.

There are a lot of them do not tote the Confederate flag around and have lived here a long time and are a bit in the minority.

Of course you're always going to see the maniacs in the news.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
If we ban the confederate flag for being racist and offensive, why haven't we banned rap music?

No one is banning anything. State governments are removing it from government grounds. Some retailers are following suit and removing it from shelves.

Ya know, first amendment and all.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,869
3,299
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It's coming down tomorrow.

Yeah, racism is fixed in S.C.

do you not believe in positive steps towards a desired outcome?

or do things in your life really have to be "fixed" in one fell swoop or it's just pointless?

maybe we should have just left all the "white's only" signs all over the south because removing them doesn't eliminate racism.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
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do you not believe in positive steps towards a desired outcome?

or do things in your life really have to be "fixed" in one fell swoop or it's just pointless?

maybe we should have just left all the "white's only" signs all over the south because removing them doesn't eliminate racism.
Hell no.

My life doesn't need fixing.

I'm thinking there doesn't need to be an apostrophe there.:hmm:
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
do you not believe in positive steps towards a desired outcome?

or do things in your life really have to be "fixed" in one fell swoop or it's just pointless?

maybe we should have just left all the "white's only" signs all over the south because removing them doesn't eliminate racism.

This is for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yIlX5ZKHRU
Maddox is so awesome. :wub:

While I am not a fan of that flag, what it stood for, or what people claim it stands for now, I find the self-righteousness of others opposing it to be amusing. Don't delude yourself into thinking that this is even a step toward our goal of ending racism. If anything, it's fanning the flames.

I especially like that part where Maddox implies that you might be making things worse by angering people with your BS. Seems... applicable.
 
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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
This is for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yIlX5ZKHRU
Maddox is so awesome. :wub:

While I am not a fan of that flag, what it stood for, or what people claim it stands for now, I find the self-righteousness of others opposing it to be amusing. Don't delude yourself into thinking that this is even a step toward our goal of ending racism. If anything, it's fanning the flames.

I especially like that part where Maddox implies that you might be making things worse by angering people with your BS. Seems... applicable.

lol i think he is right. with it always being in the news about banning it other people going nuts (like painting over the general lee). it's just making those people that fly the flag more determined to keep it.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
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lol i think he is right. with it always being in the news about banning it other people going nuts (like painting over the general lee). it's just making those people that fly the flag more determined to keep it.
I've got a 4X6 Gadsden flag someone gave me years ago. Wonder if the wife will let me fly it on the front porch column?


Curious about recent klan membership because of the flag issue and ran across this...
8223778_G.jpg


:D

http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/29...across-two-upstate-towns-promoting-rebel-flag
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
Oh man, this changing of history is annoying.

Things people have forgotten it seems are the following. The Civil War was not fought first most over slaves, although it was a large part of the reason, but of the encroachment of federal powers over the States and the right to succeed if a State chooses to do so.

Many who fought in the war for the Confederacy were not slave owners and didn't care for the practice. Robert Lee, a Virginian and Confederate General, never bought or really owned slaves on his own. The exception was a time when he inherited a plantation from his father in law that came with slaves he eventually freed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

Abe Lincoln during the civil war actually told his military commanders not to free slaves after battles they won for fear of losing some of the union states over the issues of the civil war of which slavery wasn't quite paramount. Along with some other slave related info from Abe Lincoln that most people don't know.

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

There are also a lot of Confederate flags of which the stars and bars flag is the Virginia Battle Flag. Made mostly famous by Dukes of Hazard to commemorate General Lee's origin of Virginia. The "Southern Pride" it originally signified was the bravery of the south to stand up against the powers of the federal government and the willingness to die for such a cause.

Now have a bunch of idiots tried to conflate racism with that? Especially some racist red-necked yokels? Sure they have. The flag was made recognizable because of a TV show, and thus it now has taken on different symbolism meanings to different people.

Is the Virginia Battle Flag a symbol of racism? Guess it depends today upon who you ask. The problem is those that don't know the history of the flag will shout yes though.

I'm not so sure.

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/stephens.html
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
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so what is your theory as to why the statistics are as such?
Why do blacks commit higher rates of hate crimes against whites than vice versa? Hell if I know. You are asking something that if we knew the answer to, we'd be rich. Socio-economic plays a role, most likely helped by the highest rates of teenage pregnant single moms. More importantly, blacks have more testosterone on avg than whites, according to multiple studies ((Ross et al., 1986)(Ellis & Nyborg, 1992), (Hixson, 1992)), hence more aggression. Also combine the opinion that urban whites/asians are often viewed as soft targets + past racial tensions and that probably explains some of the statistical hate crime equation. However, the hate crime part is most likely just be a part of the big picture which shows that blacks being incarcerated at a 5:1 rate vs whites (Hispanics are 2:1 vs whites for comparison - Census 2010). Even racial profiling isn't going to statistically make up the gap of a 5:1 rate. All of this could very well be caused by higher genetic testosterone levels which will in general make a person more aggressive, willing to take more risks, and also partly explain the higher pregnancy rate.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Cultures typically follow racial lines, so I would look there before I look at genetics. Gypsy culture, for example.

People need to be treated as individuals. We judge based on who someone is including what they have personally done and not what they are and what their race, nationality, gender, etc has done.

Just because someone is of a particular race does not mean that they adhere to every stereotype or negative cultural element associated with it, which is why it is wrong to make assumptions and hold someone's race against them. It doesn't, however, mean that gang culture and such must be ignored or accepted in order to be "colorblind." If it's a cultural or subculture problem then the existence must be identified and accepted/understood before it can be addressed.

"You see these gang bangers causing disproportionate representation of racial crime statistics and then trying to recruit more and present it as some cultural expectation for others to join? Yeah. Don't let those individuals do that."
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,892
31,410
146
This is for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yIlX5ZKHRU
Maddox is so awesome. :wub:

While I am not a fan of that flag, what it stood for, or what people claim it stands for now, I find the self-righteousness of others opposing it to be amusing. Don't delude yourself into thinking that this is even a step toward our goal of ending racism. If anything, it's fanning the flames.

I especially like that part where Maddox implies that you might be making things worse by angering people with your BS. Seems... applicable.

"Pledge to abuse 1 less child per week."

:D
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
136
Eh, let's give it until the weekend.

Maybe Monday, then. No more racism in SC by Monday. This country now has more freedom.
So little confidence, zin. Charleston didn't riot, loot or burn after the murders. We can do this today.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
Yes we in the Southern US do handle strife much much better than the "other" states. The proof is in the pudding. Deny all you wish.
There are some big differences between the incidents. The unrest in Ferguson and Baltimore were over deaths of black men at the hands of police, which is quite different issue altogether and taps into different grievances. Nobody will be giving Dylan Roof a meritorious conduct medal for it. He won't be walking away, free and clear, with atta-boys or any significant number of persons (especially whites) defending him or portraying the victims as criminals who deserve whatever happens to them, good riddance to bad rubbish. There is nothing to angrily protest against when it's a lone gunman whom will be quickly be thrown under the bus, even by that substantial portion of white society who normally feels nothing but antipathy or complete indifference toward blacks, their perspective and concerns, from which all the Dylann Roofs of the world seem to come.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,892
31,410
146
So little confidence, zin. Charleston didn't riot, loot or burn after the murders. We can do this today.

Well, I was thinking more like: "This weekend is about partying the end of racism, so let's wait until Monday to make it official!"

If I'm celebrating something like this, there's going to be a big lawn, speakers, kiddie pools, meat, cases and cases of beer, and trucknuts.

We deal with the particulars during the hangover.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,338
136
Well, I was thinking more like: "This weekend is about partying the end of racism, so let's wait until Monday to make it official!"

If I'm celebrating something like this, there's going to be a big lawn, speakers, kiddie pools, meat, cases and cases of beer, and trucknuts.

We deal with the particulars during the hangover.
Had me all in until you mentioned a Monday hangover. Screw that. The whole thing's off.