computerbaseDirt Rally Benchmark

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Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
91
Maxwell cards dont perform better. A GTX980 is on par with a R9 290, a GTX780 is as fast as a 280X...

nVidia is doing nothing. It's Codemaster and AMD who are "gimping support for those cards".

There is no difference between Project Cars and Dirt:Rally.

/edit: BTW, a 280X is 15% faster than a 380X. These AMD's techniques are just unoptimized memory bandwidth features.

at 4K. to be getting that performance at 4K ultra WITH 4xMSAA is pretty good.

you may be right about memory bandwidth for the lower end nvidia cards but we can't exactly expect games to not need it. Considering HBM is coming. Nvidia relying on color compression to make up the memory bandwidth deficiency won't always work. Another reason I think the 980 and 970 are going to age badly (especially when there is tons of bandwidth)
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
This is also an important point. Some studios are just better at optimizations than others, that's the honest reality.

CD Projekt Red got HairWorks source-code access and optimized it in a recent patch to improve performance for all GPUs. That's something other studios don't bother to do... I mean Ubifail anyone?

Didn't they just add a slider to turn it down? I promise you the only reason that happened is because it was shown it could be turned down on AMD hardware and improve performance without hurting IQ. That would have meant that AMD owners would have enjoyed better performance than nVidia with Hairworks on. Besides we had all of the early benches showing nVidia faster. That's the game they play. Win the benchmark wars.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Closed or open I don't care how AMD cripples Nvidia! I want them to cripple Nvidia somehow otherwise AMD will sink like the titanic! What would be a bigger crapper on PC gaming is Nvidia getting a monopoly!

Choose, do you want to see AMD dead or do you want them alive even if it means playing dirty ?

They are doing it with open source code. They have all of the consoles. They have the advantage of close to the metal API optimizations. All of the programmers are going to know how to program for GCN from the consoles. All of the ports are going to be pre optimized for GCN. As things move forward AMD performance will improve. It takes a couple of years for devs to truly understand how to program for a uarch. Programming close to the metal for nVidia is going to have to be accomplished by nVidia for the devs. The devs won't know their hardware.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
yea, nVidia is making life miserable for gamers. That must be why they have 80% of the market. There is some merit to all the criticism of gameworks, but good god, cant the AMD fans just give the whining a rest once in a while?

GTX960
Gameworks - Project cars 1080p = min 26fps/ avg 29fps
Gaming Evolved - Dirt Rally 1080p = min 46fps/ avg 55fps

R9 280X
Gameworks - Project cars 1080p = min 27fps/ avg 32fps
Gaming Evolved - Dirt Rally 1080p = min 61fps/ avg 77fps

Both tests were run with a single car.

Project Cars Test run video
Dirt Rally Test run Video

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Simulator-Project_CARS_2015-test-pc_1920.jpg


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Simulator-DiRT_Rally_rell-test-dr_1920.png



Just Cause 3 - Gameworks

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Just_Cause_3_-cach-hd_2.jpg


For the above Image Quality you get the following performance.

GTX960
1080p = min 37fps/ avg 44fps

R9 280X
1080p = min 38fps/ avg 52fps

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Just_Cause_3_-test-jc3_1920.jpg



Neutral Game : Star Wars Battlefront

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-STAR_WARS_Battlefront-cach-hd_2.jpg



For the above Image Quality you get the following performance.


GTX960
1080p = min 47fps/ avg 53fps

R9 280X
1080p = min 59fps/ avg 69fps
http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-STAR_WARS_Battlefront-test-starwars__1920.jpg


Now do the same for the GTX970 vs R9 290 and the rest of the GPUs.

Also, just have a look how badly GTX670/680 performs on GameWorks titles and how much better on Gaming Evolved and Neutral games.

For the same or worse Image Quality, the GameWorks games require more GPU performance than AMD Gaming Evolved or Neutral games.
It seems that Gameworks purpose is not to optimize the game for a better gaming experience but to simple make you upgrade your NVIDIA GPU.
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
They are doing it with open source code. They have all of the consoles. They have the advantage of close to the metal API optimizations. All of the programmers are going to know how to program for GCN from the consoles. All of the ports are going to be pre optimized for GCN. As things move forward AMD performance will improve. It takes a couple of years for devs to truly understand how to program for a uarch. Programming close to the metal for nVidia is going to have to be accomplished by nVidia for the devs. The devs won't know their hardware.

If they are doing it then they need to seriously start raising their gimping aggressiveness against Nvidia cause those guys are practically getting unscathed in GE sponsored titles ...

AMD NEEDS to find someway to get some of those console specific optimizations on PC! That means allowing inline assembly compatible with all GCN microarchitectures in HLSL (like how Nvidia integrates it's NVAPI to game engine shader codes) and exposing more DirectX driver extensions ...
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
If they are doing it then they need to seriously start raising their gimping aggressiveness against Nvidia cause those guys are practically getting unscathed in GE sponsored titles ...

AMD NEEDS to find someway to get some of those console specific optimizations on PC! That means allowing inline assembly compatible with all GCN microarchitectures in HLSL (like how Nvidia integrates it's NVAPI to game engine shader codes) and exposing more DirectX driver extensions ...

I don't know why people don't get it. AMD allows for nVidia optimizations as long as they don't adversely effect AMD performance. No nVidia gimping from AMD.

Instead of complaining about it, people need to embrace it and demand it from all of their games. If the dev isn't going to give you games that are optimized to perform as well as they can on all hardware don't buy them.
 

littleg

Senior member
Jul 9, 2015
355
38
91
If they are doing it then they need to seriously start raising their gimping aggressiveness against Nvidia cause those guys are practically getting unscathed in GE sponsored titles ...

AMD NEEDS to find someway to get some of those console specific optimizations on PC! That means allowing inline assembly compatible with all GCN microarchitectures in HLSL (like how Nvidia integrates it's NVAPI to game engine shader codes) and exposing more DirectX driver extensions ...

No, AMD is doing it right and the performance of the GPUs from both sides of the fence in their games bear that out. What needs to happen is NV stop being total dicks and screwing over gamers with their proprietary 'Upgrade Now' button.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
yea, nVidia is making life miserable for gamers. That must be why they have 80% of the market. There is some merit to all the criticism of gameworks, but good god, cant the AMD fans just give the whining a rest once in a while?

It is quite simple and already explained multiple times...
If English is not your native language, say so and maybe someone can explain it to you in the language you understand.

Infraction issued for trolling.
-- stahlhart
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,123
7,596
136
No, AMD is doing it right and the performance of the GPUs from both sides of the fence in their games bear that out. What needs to happen is NV stop being total dicks and screwing over gamers with their proprietary 'Upgrade Now' button.


I think people are taking a very naive view of how this problem gets resolved. Right now, NVidia dominates the market because there is a perception that AMD is subpar. A large part of this perception is driven by a "better on Geforce" marketing strategy spearheaded by GW. What is NV's impetus to change this money making, market dominating strategy besides the good intentions of ATVG members? Nothing.

If AMD adopts their competitor's strategy successfully, it will either hurt NV's bottom line or everyone's bottom line (as members here have said people will just migrate to consoles). This is when corporations listen, when their fat profit margins and executive salaries are threatened. The best hope for broadly accepted open standards and competition between hardware rather than software is a lean, mean dirty fighting AMD that can shake NV out of its market dominance slumber, making it behave like the gamer first company it used to be.

Otherwise, the members of ATVG can golf clap while AMD martyrs itself for open standards while NV just laughs from atop its piles of money.
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
GTX960
Gameworks - Project cars 1080p = min 26fps/ avg 29fps
Gaming Evolved - Dirt Rally 1080p = min 46fps/ avg 55fps

R9 280X
Gameworks - Project cars 1080p = min 27fps/ avg 32fps
Gaming Evolved - Dirt Rally 1080p = min 61fps/ avg 77fps

Both tests were run with a single car.

Project Cars Test run video
Dirt Rally Test run Video

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Simulator-Project_CARS_2015-test-pc_1920.jpg


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Simulator-DiRT_Rally_rell-test-dr_1920.png



Just Cause 3 - Gameworks

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Just_Cause_3_-cach-hd_2.jpg


For the above Image Quality you get the following performance.

GTX960
1080p = min 37fps/ avg 44fps

R9 280X
1080p = min 38fps/ avg 52fps

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Just_Cause_3_-test-jc3_1920.jpg



Neutral Game : Star Wars Battlefront

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-STAR_WARS_Battlefront-cach-hd_2.jpg



For the above Image Quality you get the following performance.


GTX960
1080p = min 47fps/ avg 53fps

R9 280X
1080p = min 59fps/ avg 69fps
http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-STAR_WARS_Battlefront-test-starwars__1920.jpg


Now do the same for the GTX970 vs R9 290 and the rest of the GPUs.

Also, just have a look how badly GTX670/680 performs on GameWorks titles and how much better on Gaming Evolved and Neutral games.

For the same or worse Image Quality, the GameWorks games require more GPU performance than AMD Gaming Evolved or Neutral games.
It seems that Gameworks purpose is not to optimize the game for a better gaming experience but to simple make you upgrade your NVIDIA GPU.

Great post, i think that Gameworks really do hurt every card out there, some more than others.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
I think people are taking a very naive view of how this problem gets resolved. Right now, NVidia dominates the market because there is a perception that AMD is subpar. A large part of this perception is driven by a "better on Geforce" marketing strategy spearheaded by GW. What is NV's impetus to change this money making, market dominating strategy besides the good intentions of ATVG members? Nothing.

If AMD adopts their competitor's strategy successfully, it will either hurt NV's bottom line or everyone's bottom line (as members here have said people will just migrate to consoles). This is when corporations listen, when their fat profit margins and executive salaries are threatened. The best hope for broadly accepted open standards and competition between hardware rather than software is a lean, mean dirty fighting AMD that can shake NV out of its market dominance slumber, making it behave like the gamer first company it used to be.

Otherwise, the members of ATVG can golf clap while AMD martyrs itself for open standards while NV just laughs from atop its piles of money.

It's really simple math. It costs money to buy off the devs like nVidia does. nVidia has more money. They can afford to buy off more devs. They would be playing into nVidia's hands. It's not a battle that AMD could win. They do have enough market share though to influence people's perception. Some people just aren't smart enough to see the endgame in nVidia's strategy or else they wouldn't buy into it.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
i think that Gameworks really do hurt every card out there, some more than others.

I was wondering , what special graphical features does AMD evolved bring to this game that Nvidia cards don't do well? Gameworks seem to better the look of the game at the cost of some framerate. Is there special features you can enable on AMD cards like hairworks?
 

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
2,834
2
26
I was wondering , what special graphical features does AMD evolved bring to this game that Nvidia cards don't do well? Gameworks seem to better the look of the game at the cost of some framerate. Is there special features you can enable on AMD cards like hairworks?

Understatement of the century!
 

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
2,834
2
26
So the answer is nothing?

The question is why you Nvidia fanboys insist that having such features is a good thing. Losing 20-30FPS from turning up one setting that only improves visual in side-by-side comparisons? Why would anyone with half a brain want that? Why is wanting optimized games a bad thing? I don't get it.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
0
The question is why you Nvidia fanboys insist that having such features is a good thing. Losing 20-30FPS from turning up one setting that only improves visual in side-by-side comparisons? Why would anyone with half a brain want that? Why is wanting optimized games a bad thing? I don't get it.
Since when is having more choices a bad thing? I can simply turn the feature off, problem solved.
 

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
2,834
2
26
Since when is having more choices a bad thing? I can simply turn the feature off, problem solved.

It's a bad thing when those choices only exist to convince people to spend $650 on a new card every 6-12 months, and it leaves people with the choice if console graphics or console performance. At that point, why not just buy a console? Why can't they just optimize their code so that a setting with literally no difference in IQ doesn't come with a greater than 30% performance cost? Why is it that these features often introduce stuttering? You know Arkham Knight, the laughing stock of PC gaming? It actually runs great on my system now and even has good frame times... until the smoke effect is turned on and it becomes a stutterfest with frametimes sometimes exceeding 50ms, while they never hit 30 even in the worst case (when loading a new part of the map while driving) with it off. Not to mention the fact that poorly optimized games having GW is a well-documented trend, and the number of poorly optimized games increases as Nvidia gets more agressive with GameWorks. Is it possible that these developers are now relying on these features to sell the game on PC? It's really starting to seem that way.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
I don't think it would be a very good idea for a game developer to gimp Nvidia cards, a company that has 80% of the market.

Sure it is ...

Incentives are the only way for people like you to consider another IHV ...

The reason you own one of the latest Nvidia product is probably because of the incentive of not wanting to have the feeling of GameWorks tanking on your hardware ...

No incentives = No sales
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,213
5,794
126
I was wondering , what special graphical features does AMD evolved bring to this game that Nvidia cards don't do well? Gameworks seem to better the look of the game at the cost of some framerate. Is there special features you can enable on AMD cards like hairworks?

Batman Arkham Knight, Console vs PC(Gameworks) is such an example.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Since when is having more choices a bad thing? I can simply turn the feature off, problem solved.

Isn't that an admittance that the feature is a failure then? What's the point of implementing superior graphical features if they don't work to the point that you have to turn them off? That means the developer should go back to the drawing board to either remove them entirely and focus their efforts on fixing the bugs in most AAA games today OR start from scratch with an open-source next gen game engine that has the ability to do next gen effects. DICE doesn't have a problem with this, so no excuses.

It's not that simple when you look at the big picture.

GWs means developers tack on visual features to games via NV-made DLLs/middleware since they don't want to spend their own resources, invest $ into next gen graphics tech/engines, hire cutting edge programmers, visual artists/designers to realize technical leaps via open-source coding.

Open-source development means you are required to spend more $, resources and put in-house talent/brains to use that's required to make true next gen games from the ground-up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGyaR2sSBkA

GameWorks effects are like Baskin-Robbins or Dove. It's better than your average ice cream/chocolate but it's not Gelato or Godiva.

When you start off with the desire to make next gen cutting edge graphics, you do not start with GameWorks since it's admittance that:

1) NV's programmers can do it better than you (i.e., companies that make games!) ever could;

2) You think GameWorks features look better than all open-source alternatives available;

3) You think GameWorks offers the best trade-off between quality and performance compaes to all open source alternatives;

4) You consciously make the decision to use proprietary tech developed by someone else (NV) -- i.e., you give up all control for streamlined in-house optimizations since you never made the code - it's all middle ware DLLs -- and it means you have no next gen in-house tech for next gen games because what are you going to use for your Next gen sequel? Call NV for help again? :sneaky: Congrats, might as well tell NV to make your entire game, like write the story line while we are at it.

What's next? NV's GameWorks Audio in games for Symphonic proprietary experience?

BTW, NV helped to destroy advanced physics by buying off Ageia. At one point we didn't need an accelerated graphics card for games as the graphics were handled by the CPU. Advanced physics was in that infant stage where it needed room to breathe and evolve to become another add-in component that we require for next gen physics effects. Thanks to NV, they destroyed one of the few companies that was onto something new and dreamed big about revolutionizing physics in games. PhysX lock is proof in itself that long-term proprietary tech that's closed-source is a failure unless the company behind it has marketing $$$ out of the wazoo to push it down everyone's throats (Apple). Obviously NV doesn't since they cannot afford to add PhysX to many games.

The question is why you Nvidia fanboys insist that having such features is a good thing. Losing 20-30FPS from turning up one setting that only improves visual in side-by-side comparisons? Why would anyone with half a brain want that? Why is wanting optimized games a bad thing? I don't get it.

Because they convinced themselves that GWs features are required to push PC gaming above consoles. That's why they look at GWs as some 'savior' to console ports. This is even more ironic considering no GWs game of 2015 (or ever) looks as good as SW:BF - an open source game. More ironic is a lot of GWs titles released in 2015 actually look terribly outdated - JC3, Rainbox 6 Siege, FO4.

Are there GWs titles that look good? Sure, Dying Light, Crysis 3, etc. come to mind but could you make those games without using a single GWs middle ware effect and substitute it with a superior open-source effect? Absolutely!

Is there special features you can enable on AMD cards like hairworks?

The concept of special (i.e., proprietary) graphical features such as HairWorks doesn't apply to AMD because AMD's ideology is to make all graphical effects open-source for betterment of gaming as a whole. The same reason why AMD didn't patent FreeSync or make it closed source. NV or Intel are free to use FreeSync but NV purposely doesn't want to support open-source standards since the way they function is like Apple - desire to lock you into their eco-system at all costs even at the detriment of what made PC gaming what it is today -- open source and wide in scope accessibility.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
just cause 3

wai you no have sli in 2015?

does crossfire work?

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/just-cause-3-engine-is-incompatible-with-all-multi-gpu-solutions/

It's really simple math. It costs money to buy off the devs like nVidia does. nVidia has more money. They can afford to buy off more devs. They would be playing into nVidia's hands. It's not a battle that AMD could win. They do have enough market share though to influence people's perception. Some people just aren't smart enough to see the endgame in nVidia's strategy or else they wouldn't buy into it.

"Virtual reality is the next frontier of gaming and 3D intensive applications, and NVIDIA is helping to pave the way with GameWorks VR. GameWorks VR is NVIDIA’s set of APIs, libraries, and features that enable both VR headset and game developers to deliver amazing VR experiences.

Multi-Res Shading uses Maxwell’s multi-projection architecture to render multiple scaled viewports in a single pass, delivering substantial performance improvements."


If this continues, performance optimizations will be completely out of the hands of game developers since with NV's API could be tied to take advantage of specific NV GPU architecture -> NV will be in full control of GPU obsolescence since they control the GPU architecture manufacturing and API code that runs on the hardware. What happens when GameWorks VR2.0 comes out that takes advantage of Pascal/Volta architecture? Bye-bye Maxwell. What happens if a developer has to make a well-optimized next gen gaming experience that caters to a wide variety of PC hardware? They have to spend $$, think what the best open-source solutions are, optimize, optimize, optimize.
 
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