computerbaseDirt Rally Benchmark

[Techhog]

That's short term thinking. Your customers will start to question the whole platform if there's too much vendor lock-in and competitiveness.

Yeah, I'd sell my PC in favor of a PS4 in heartbeat if that's what the industry came to.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I would argue AMD's GE program doesn't go far enough. What good is taking the high road if it doesn't get you more sales. Nvidia figured this out long ago, hopefully the Radeon Technologies Group adopts some of their tricks.

The fact that Nvidia users who play this game won't be cursing god and considering the competition due to poor performance, visual artifacts etc is a missed opportunity for AMD.

I disagree that AMD should copy Nvidia's tactics. But, you are right that AMD will probably be rewarded for not gimping competitor's hardware and the game for everyone with shrinking sales. It's unfortunate.

They say people get the government they deserve. I think one day we'll have the GPU company we deserve.

 

[moonbogg]

I haven't even touched Dirt 3 which has been sitting in my steam library. I wonder if I should get this game? I haven't played a racer in a loooong time. Project cars sounded stupid so I didn't bother with that.
Performance is great for this game. I'm glad to see older cards kicking ass like we all know they still should be. No reason to have bad performance on all but the latest $600+ cards. That's lame. This title is great. GE is doing good things. Gameworks is a laggy pile of trash that only creates messes out of games that not even dual 980TI's can run well. Had to disable all gameworks features in Fary Cry 4 recently due to CRASH CRASH CRASH. Gameworks features turned off, no more crash crash crash.

 

[Erenhardt]

That's short term thinking. Your customers will start to question the whole platform if there's too much vendor lock-in and competitiveness.

Yes. That is why he proposed it.
If amd can make nv customers start asking question if they want to sacrifice some features that are locked to amd, it is a win for amd.
Should amd stay a good guy and keep smiling each time a gamer gets nv gpu because he knows all amd tech and sponsored games will run great on his new gpu?

It seems nv is putting more resources into making life of amd gpu user miserable than into developing new gpus.

 

[AtenRa]

Yes. That is why he proposed it.
If amd can make nv customers start asking question if they want to sacrifice some features that are locked to amd, it is a win for amd.
Should amd stay a good guy and keep smiling each time a gamer gets nv gpu because he knows all amd tech and sponsored games will run great on his new gpu?

It seems nv is putting more resources into making life of amd gpu user miserable than into developing new gpus.

The problem is NV making BOTH AMD and NVIDIA users life miserable with its GW games.

 

[RussianSensation]

But everyone said Gaming Evolved titles running good on Nvidia/AMD. Looks like AMD gimping Nvidia performance with possibly Forward+, global illumination, unoptimisable open standards but fanboys still blaming Gameworks and Nvidia.

Oh boy. There is 0 gimping happening. NV can ask for source code and can optimize drivers to even outperform AMD in this title. SLI works perfectly. The only "gimping" happening is AMD just got a head start with its driver optimization because they worked with the developer form the onset. This is like the old TWIMTBP program that I never saw you complain about. That's not gimping, just AMD having early access to the game's source code. Now it's just a matter of NV driver optimization post-launch and nothing is stopping NV from improving performance.

It's also funny you call Forward+, global illumination and open standards unoptimizable, especially when games like JC3 look like outdated, have horrendous AA options (none of which works well) and is plagued by primitive lighting system. Do you even know what open standards/source code means? It means the driver can be optimized for it. NV can call the developer tomorrow or send software programmers there. What can AMD do with GWs middle-ware DLLs?

There is no middle-ware/DLLs in this game unlike GWs titles. Shocking how to this day some people like you are in denial about the differences between GWs DLLs/middle-ware vs. TWIMTBP/AMD GE.

Sure, because most Gameworks games are rally games with nothing but one car and trees.

This game runs "great" because it just a rally game. Rally games have always performed great - Dirt series, Colin etc.

It's not just about this game. 90%+ of all AMD GE title run well on AMD and NV cards, SLI works, CF works. Track record speaks for itself:

> AMD GE = well optimized, perform amazing at launch, not to mention the best looking 2015 PC game (SW:BF) runs like butter on NV. 300 software engineers at NV couldn't come up with an effects to make a better looking gaming than the open-source SW:BF. This is the very definition why GWs is a failure.

> NV GWs = most of the time poorly optimized, CF/SLI issues, stutters, memory leaks galore, CPU bottlenecks out the wazoo, with maxed out GWs features even a 980Ti starts to struggle, to say nothing of lower end cards like 780Ti or 970.

Maxwell cards dont perform better. A GTX980 is on par with a R9 290, a GTX780 is as fast as a 280X...

nVidia is doing nothing. It's Codemaster and AMD who are "gimping support for those cards".

How is AMD gimping NV cards? Can you please tell us what exactly AMD has locked out of NV from allowing future NV's driver optimizations; and what proprietary AMD features are in the game? :sneaky:

I know it must be tearing you up on the inside when a game runs well on older cards like 770 2GB @ 1080P and 970 smashes it at 1440P and it's also getting 92% user ratings and it was AMD-sponsored. So instead of looking at the big picture of how almost all good NV/AMD cards perform well, and how there are 0 CPU bottlenecks, you focus on whether one card has 5-10 fps more performance despite the 'slower' card maxing out this game at 60fps+.

Here, here, go fire up the 'brilliant' ARK Survival Evolved to make yourself feel better about trying to hit 30 fps stable on a 980Ti @ 1080P:
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/ark-survival-evolved-test-gpu.html

You might have bitten the sarcasm bait..."unoptimisable OPEN STANDARDS..."

Funny how way back when NV used the same strategy as AMD GE with TWIMTBP by working with the developer throughout the game's development, not one of them complained about how that was "gimping" AMD performance on purpose.

It's not a serious debate from gameworks fanboys. It's a "amd has gaming evolved so it's ok for gameworks to trash performance for amd cards!"

That's all they care about nvidia vs amd.

The fact that gameworks titles need the fastest gpu possible just for 1080p while gaming evolved titles favor amd, but need a midrange card for 1080p from both vendors is lost on them.

They don't care about how playable the games are, just amd vs nvidia.

This post is spot on. All they care about is NV vs. AMD not how playable the game actually is.

@ 1440P
980 = 70 fps (!)
290X = 72 fps
780Ti = 65 fps
970 = 59 fps
780 = 56 fps

With mild overclocking, every single one of those NV cards is getting 60 fps @ 1440P.

AC Syndicate - unplayable on a 970 with maxed out settings @ 1080P.
Black Ops 3 - memory leaks
Batman AK - worst optimized port of 2015
Dying Light - 98-100% CPU usage on 1 core!
Watch Dogs, AC Unity, etc.

Even though 970 is slower than 390 in SW:BF, 970 is absolutely dominating this gorgeous game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwfVnj0t8zc

AMD GE = it's becoming like a Quality Seal of Approval for GPU & CPU performance optimizations. GWs titles, the complete opposite.

I would argue AMD's GE program doesn't go far enough. What good is taking the high road if it doesn't get you more sales. Nvidia figured this out long ago, hopefully the Radeon Technologies Group adopts some of their tricks.

The fact that Nvidia users who play this game won't be cursing god and considering the competition due to poor performance, visual artifacts etc is a missed opportunity for AMD.

I doubt the strategy would work well for AMD and frankly it's worse for PC gaming if games are going to be purposely poorly optimized and gimped for both AMD/NV cards. The users who defend/worship GWs for "saving PC gaming" from consoles are the same NV users who are likely to skip all of those AMD GE games entirely rather than considering switching sides. I mean look at them now -- they complain about AMD winning when NV cards are hitting 60 fps @ 1440P. I guess if you salivate at the idea of watching VRAM usage skyrocket past 6GB in MSI AB to justify spending $1K on Titan Xs and feel proud of putting your GM200 to good use by hitting console FPS in games like ARK Survival, then AMD GE is bad proposition for them when a simple 970 is more than sufficient.

Had to disable all gameworks features in Fary Cry 4 recently due to CRASH CRASH CRASH. Gameworks features turned off, no more crash crash crash.

Can you try maxing out TXAAx4, HBAO+ and PCSS Ultra in AC Syndicate on a 980Ti?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53mWbxcWAw4

It seems SLI still doesn't work well in this title?

Yes. That is why he proposed it.
If amd can make nv customers start asking question if they want to sacrifice some features that are locked to amd, it is a win for amd.
Should amd stay a good guy and keep smiling each time a gamer gets nv gpu because he knows all amd tech and sponsored games will run great on his new gpu?

It seems nv is putting more resources into making life of amd gpu user miserable than into developing new gpus.

With > 80% of PC gamers having NV cards, what are the chances a developer will lock them out of certain graphical effects/features? A better way to do it that doesn't hurt PC gaming is for AMD to just team up with all major developers before NV can lock them into GWs. This way, all major AAA games will have open-source code. AMD doesn't have the $ to do that though.

A developer that knows how to code games and optimize them doesn't need GameWorks. Why would they when their in-house developer graphics and optimizations are better. :thumbsup:

 

[n0x1ous]

Oh boy. There is 0 gimping happening. NV can ask for source code and can optimize drivers to even outperform AMD in this title. SLI works perfectly. The only "gimping" happening is AMD just got a head start with its driver optimization because they worked with the developer form the onset. This is like the old TWIMTBP program that I never saw you complain about. That's not gimping, just AMD having early access to the game's source code. Now it's just a matter of NV driver optimization post-launch and nothing is stopping NV from improving performance.

It's also funny you call Forward+, global illumination and open standards unoptimizable, especially when games like JC3 look like outdated, have horrendous AA options (none of which works well) and is plagued by primitive lighting system. Do you even know what open standards/source code means? It means the driver can be optimized for it. NV can call the developer tomorrow or send software programmers there. What can AMD do with GWs middle-ware DLLs?

There is no middle-ware/DLLs in this game unlike GWs titles. Shocking how to this day some people like you are in denial about the differences between GWs DLLs/middle-ware vs. TWIMTBP/AMD GE.



It's not just about this game. 90%+ of all AMD GE title run well on AMD and NV cards, SLI works, CF works. Track record speaks for itself:

> AMD GE = well optimized, perform amazing at launch, not to mention the best looking 2015 PC game (SW:BF) runs like butter on NV. 300 software engineers at NV couldn't come up with an effects to make a better looking gaming than the open-source SW:BF. This is the very definition why GWs is a failure.

> NV GWs = most of the time poorly optimized, CF/SLI issues, stutters, memory leaks galore, CPU bottlenecks out the wazoo, with maxed out GWs features even a 980Ti starts to struggle, to say nothing of lower end cards like 780Ti or 970.



How is AMD gimping NV cards? Can you please tell us what exactly AMD has locked out of NV from allowing future NV's driver optimizations; and what proprietary AMD features are in the game? :sneaky:

I know it must be tearing you up on the inside when a game runs well on older cards like 770 2GB @ 1080P and 970 smashes it at 1440P and it's also getting 92% user ratings and it was AMD-sponsored. So instead of looking at the big picture of how almost all good NV/AMD cards perform well, and how there are 0 CPU bottlenecks, you focus on whether one card has 5-10 fps more performance despite the 'slower' card maxing out this game at 60fps+.

Here, here, go fire up the 'brilliant' ARK Survival Evolved to make yourself feel better about trying to hit 30 fps stable on a 980Ti @ 1080P:
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/ark-survival-evolved-test-gpu.html



Funny how way back when NV used the same strategy as AMD GE with TWIMTBP by working with the developer throughout the game's development, not one of them complained about how that was "gimping" AMD performance on purpose.



This post is spot on. All they care about is NV vs. AMD not how playable the game actually is.

@ 1440P
980 = 70 fps (!)
290X = 72 fps
780Ti = 65 fps
970 = 59 fps
780 = 56 fps

With mild overclocking, every single one of those NV cards is getting 60 fps @ 1440P.

AC Syndicate - unplayable on a 970 with maxed out settings @ 1080P.
Black Ops 3 - memory leaks
Batman AK - worst optimized port of 2015
Dying Light - 98-100% CPU usage on 1 core!
Watch Dogs, AC Unity, etc.

Even though 970 is slower than 390 in SW:BF, 970 is absolutely dominating this gorgeous game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwfVnj0t8zc

AMD GE = it's becoming like a Quality Seal of Approval for GPU & CPU performance optimizations. GWs titles, the complete opposite.



I doubt the strategy would work well for AMD and frankly it's worse for PC gaming if games are going to be purposely poorly optimized and gimped for both AMD/NV cards. The users who defend/worship GWs for "saving PC gaming" from consoles are the same NV users who are likely to skip all of those AMD GE games entirely rather than considering switching sides. I mean look at them now -- they complain about AMD winning when NV cards are hitting 60 fps @ 1440P. I guess if you salivate at the idea of watching VRAM usage skyrocket past 6GB in MSI AB to justify spending $1K on Titan Xs and feel proud of putting your GM200 to good use by hitting console FPS in games like ARK Survival, then AMD GE is bad proposition for them when a simple 970 is more than sufficient.



Can you try maxing out TXAAx4, HBAO+ and PCSS Ultra in AC Syndicate on a 980Ti?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53mWbxcWAw4

It seems SLI still doesn't work well in this title?



With > 80% of PC gamers having NV cards, what are the chances a developer will lock them out of certain graphical effects/features? A better way to do it that doesn't hurt PC gaming is for AMD to just team up with all major developers before NV can lock them into GWs. This way, all major AAA games will have open-source code. AMD doesn't have the $ to do that though.

A developer that knows how to code games and optimize them doesn't need GameWorks. Why would they when their in-house developer graphics and optimizations are better. :thumbsup:

Sad but true. The evidence is overwhelming at this point. Gameworks needs to die.

 

[Mondozei]

A well deserved win by AMD. Yes, they're bleeding cash but their GE implementation deserves to be praised. I have an NV GPU and I'm not shy about my hate for GW and all it stands for. It's useless junk.

P.S.

I love seeing the 280X beating - or being even - with the 780 in benchmarks lately. Last time it was Rainbow Six, now it's this game.

Tahiti, what a legend you are.

 

[Piroko]

Yes. That is why he proposed it.
If amd can make nv customers start asking question if they want to sacrifice some features that are locked to amd, it is a win for amd.
Should amd stay a good guy and keep smiling each time a gamer gets nv gpu because he knows all amd tech and sponsored games will run great on his new gpu?

It seems nv is putting more resources into making life of amd gpu user miserable than into developing new gpus.

You misinterpreted my post, Techhog got it right. If running PC games starts to be a hassle then many people will simply leave the platform and buy more consoles. That's a loss for everyone.

AMD is in this weird position where it may even economically better for them to play the good guy, because it keeps PC gaming as a whole relevant. Their backup plan with owning the current consoles SOCs isn't giving them nearly as much ROI.
Similarly, Nvidia has their HPC field as a backup plan that isn't that great (yet), but being in a dominant market position with deep pockets gives them more options, even if they'll ultimately destroy their current cash cow.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

It is ironic how some of the people here that protests GameWorks are currently Nvidia users ...

It's clear as a bright day that AMD playing as nice guy isn't netting them anymore sales. There are people who will NEVER consider an AMD GPU and then there are people who will ALMOST never an AMD GPU ...

It's not too late to get the latter on board but as for the former, AMD might as well burn them by making GE 10x more nastier than GW in their case since it will make absolutely no difference if they incite more contempt from this group ...

 

[boozzer]

You can always tell, because it works properly.

oooh the burn, haha.

 

[Techhog]

It is ironic how some of the people here that protests GameWorks are currently Nvidia users ...

It's clear as a bright day that AMD playing as nice guy isn't netting them anymore sales. There are people who will NEVER consider an AMD GPU and then there are people who will ALMOST never an AMD GPU ...

It's not too late to get the latter on board but as for the former, AMD might as well burn them by making GE 10x more nastier than GW in their case since it will make absolutely no difference if they incite more contempt from this group ...

You people are never going to get it, are you?

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

You people are never going to get it, are you?

Get what exactly ? GameWorks isn't illegal so it's fair game as far as the law is concerned and who wouldn't want to see AMD get healthier ?

If you hate GameWorks so much you could at least put your money where your mouth is and swear to never buy an Nvidia product ever again ...

AMD acting in the role of the white knight will get them killed and we'll have nothing but you guys to thank for that ...

 

[Silverforce11]

Get what exactly ? GameWorks isn't illegal so it's fair game as far as the law is concerned and who wouldn't want to see AMD get healthier ?

If you hate GameWorks so much you could at least put your money where your mouth is and swear to never buy an Nvidia product ever again ...

AMD acting in the role of the white knight will get them killed and we'll have nothing but you guys to thank for that ...

What's the alternative? AMD push closed source obfuscated GE features to cripple NV GPUs?

Before people say they can't do it because of marketshare, it wasn't long ago when it was 50-50. AnandTech did a beautiful article about TWIMTBP program (it's an old one), where they ask NV why they did not release detailed info about their architectures like AMD does. You know what NV said, basically that AMD has lots of money and they could abuse weaknesses in NV's uarch to get a superior advantage. I was gobsmacked, because that's the pot calling the kettle black, back many years ago. Then we saw that AMD focus on open source, helping gamedevs optimize for all hardware, while NV went the reverse, fully paranoid approach.

AMD has always been an open company that strives to move the industry forward together. Look at GDDR3, GDDR5 and now HBM and HBM2. On their dev portal, anyone can download the full open source SDK of all GE features, really, anyone.

If AMD play dirty like NV, that would be total crap for PC gaming. I don't want to have to buy 1 vendor hardware to play some game and another vendor to play other games. That's console exclusivity and it's against the tradition of PC gaming where we can mix and match our rigs as we desire.

Edit: Ultimately as studios have fully realized the market sitation, where consoles are the bulk of the income, they must design their cross-platform games to work well on consoles. Failure to do so is a recipe for massive fail. This is the main reason we're seeing GCN destroying Kepler in many recent titles. Games developed ground up for this console generation, if optimized for those uarch, will benefit AMD on the PC. Anyone here deny that?

This is where GimpWorks comes into the equation and neuters AMD as much as possible. Dare I say, without the gimpage, NV simply can't compete vs console/GCN optimized engines and games. R290X faster than 980? Woah. Pascal better be "GCN-like" or the DX12 era will be AMD's return big time.

 

[Innokentij]

Stop being fanboys, this has nothing to do with AMD at all, codemaster has always been good at making engines that runs smooth since day 1. Open google and educate urselfs.

 

[Silverforce11]

Stop being fanboys, this has nothing to do with AMD at all, codemaster has always been good at making engines that runs smooth since day 1. Open google and educate urselfs.

This is also an important point. Some studios are just better at optimizations than others, that's the honest reality.

CD Projekt Red got HairWorks source-code access and optimized it in a recent patch to improve performance for all GPUs. That's something other studios don't bother to do... I mean Ubifail anyone?

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

What's the alternative? AMD push closed source obfuscated GE features to cripple NV GPUs?

Before people say they can't do it because of marketshare, it wasn't long ago when it was 50-50. AnandTech did a beautiful article about TWIMTBP program (it's an old one), where they ask NV why they did not release detailed info about their architectures like AMD does. You know what NV said, basically that AMD has lots of money and they could abuse weaknesses in NV's uarch to get a superior advantage. I was gobsmacked, because that's the pot calling the kettle black, back many years ago. Then we saw that AMD focus on open source, helping gamedevs optimize for all hardware, while NV went the reverse, fully paranoid approach.

AMD has always been an open company that strives to move the industry forward together. Look at GDDR3, GDDR5 and now HBM and HBM2. On their dev portal, anyone can download the full open source SDK of all GE features, really, anyone.

If AMD play dirty like NV, that would be total crap for PC gaming. I don't want to have to buy 1 vendor hardware to play some game and another vendor to play other games. That's console exclusivity and it's against the tradition of PC gaming where we can mix and match our rigs as we desire.

Edit: Ultimately as studios have fully realized the market sitation, where consoles are the bulk of the income, they must design their cross-platform games to work well on consoles. Failure to do so is a recipe for massive fail. This is the main reason we're seeing GCN destroying Kepler in many recent titles. Games developed ground up for this console generation, if optimized for those uarch, will benefit AMD on the PC. Anyone here deny that?

This is where GimpWorks comes into the equation and neuters AMD as much as possible. Dare I say, without the gimpage, NV simply can't compete vs console/GCN optimized engines and games. R290X faster than 980? Woah. Pascal better be "GCN-like" or the DX12 era will be AMD's return big time.

Closed or open I don't care how AMD cripples Nvidia! I want them to cripple Nvidia somehow otherwise AMD will sink like the titanic! What would be a bigger crapper on PC gaming is Nvidia getting a monopoly!

Choose, do you want to see AMD dead or do you want them alive even if it means playing dirty ?

 

[Silverforce11]

If they play dirty too, I'll go with consoles. It's cheaper and so exclusivity is less of an insult.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Then you guys go with consoles then ...

I am tired of seeing AMD in a pitiful state. Integrity isn't worth a damn if your competitor isn't on the same playing field ...

 

[frozentundra123456]

The problem is NV making BOTH AMD and NVIDIA users life miserable with its GW games.

yea, nVidia is making life miserable for gamers. That must be why they have 80% of the market. There is some merit to all the criticism of gameworks, but good god, cant the AMD fans just give the whining a rest once in a while?

 

[Techhog]

Get what exactly ? GameWorks isn't illegal so it's fair game as far as the law is concerned and who wouldn't want to see AMD get healthier ?

If you hate GameWorks so much you could at least put your money where your mouth is and swear to never buy an Nvidia product ever again ...

AMD acting in the role of the white knight will get them killed and we'll have nothing but you guys to thank for that ...

If the only way for there to be a competitive market is half of the games released to only run on one $650 card and the other half to only run on another $650 card, then PC gaming has warn out its welcome and deserves to die.

 

[moonbogg]

RS, I don't have any AC game. They don't interest me. Just not my thing. I might grab this Dirt game however.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

If the only way for there to be a competitive market is half of the games released to only run on one $650 card and the other half to only run on another $650 card, then PC gaming has warn out its welcome and deserves to die.

Better that than a monopoly with Nvidia, am I right ?

 

[DeathReborn]

Stop being fanboys, this has nothing to do with AMD at all, codemaster has always been good at making engines that runs smooth since day 1. Open google and educate urselfs.

Codemasters crippled the timing system (still to this day) in their F1 titles by copying the system from the Dirt series, they do make good engines but the extra bits that make the games work like they should aren't up there with the best at all.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

yea, nVidia is making life miserable for gamers. That must be why they have 80% of the market. There is some merit to all the criticism of gameworks, but good god, cant the AMD fans just give the whining a rest once in a while?

Good god, thank you! We're already at the one GPU manufacturer phase right now! $500 mid-range cards, bifurcated generations, planned obselecense of otherwise relevant hardware.

And people are eating it up. They love it, apparently. They want their PC to be a console.

Why is AMD running away from what the people have clearly chosen? Why swim upstream? So some fraction of a percent of PC gamers will thank them for keeping things running well on their Nvidia hardware?