Computer Geeks: Getting a tech job without being certified

[MrChicken]

Yep, Tim is right, that internship would be worth gold. A degree, a Cert and a year or two as an intern, you're golden. Of course you'll have to work your butt of to get through school, a Cert and work as an intern, and that is what an employer will see on your resume.
Management is always looking for bright guys that work like sled dogs.

 

[Dravic]

Just for more info.. here's my story..

BS in Comp Sci in '96.. Learning specific programming languages in college is not the only reason for a BS. You should be learning Critial and logical thinking skills. Technology and programming languages change as time goes on. But is you can understand the fundamentals behind programming and computers, then syntax becomes irrelevant.

several unix jobs from help desk -> networking have given me all the real world experience i needed. I was promoted faster, and learned more then most of the certified people in the same postistions for one reason, critial and logical thinking.

Its 5 years later, i now work in San Fran area and make 70k as a Unix Admin.

I have NO certs, and i'm just now getting my Cisco ccna(mainly for the raise)

Leaning to think will benifit you much more then most certs. I have little respect for most certs(except cisco) just because it doesnt mean too much about your technical knowledge. They may get you in the door for an interview, but after thats its all on YOU, and what you can due in front of a compuer on a production network

Try not to bog yourself down with specifics(still learn them), and try and learn the ideas and concepts behind them.


oh.. and as for this statement "10 years of Unix admin would mean nothing" ahhh.. I know where you were coming from, but dont use that as a refence point. Someone with 10 years Unix admin experience would chew though an NT netrowk in a heart beat. Unless that unix admin was completely living under a stone for 10 years. We unix admins may not WANT to admin an NT network, but that doesnt mean we cant. MOST unix admins work in a multiplatform environment with every type of client/server OS under the sun.

sry for any typo's.. movies on and wifes calling

 

[AMD4ME2]

well I know my computers well, I build them I fix them(for family and friends) and I have an A+ Certification, but im having a real hard time finding anything. 10 years of pizza hoofin and 6 months of Tech on my resume makes it pretty hard to convince someone that you know what your doing, with or without certifications.

 

[MrChicken]

A couple of things, I work mostly with people that mostly have a BS, not in CS or IT. I would not say that they are as whole great critical or logical thinkers. They are in general like the population in general, great logical thinkers are few and far between in the human animal. If you learned that on college, that's great, I just dont believe that most people do or they quickly forget that or ignore it after leaving college. These are the people that call me and say things like "I tried it 10 times before I called, and it still didnt work" and who despite being told countless time in writing and personally that an electric heater is a bad thing to use as it will blow the circuit breakers out, use them and then get pissed that they lost an hours work when their pc crashed along with 15 others.

Second, I know Unix admins with 10 years experience that wouldnt touch an NT network for anything. I wouldnt let them touch my network until they trained themselves on NT. I watched a guy with several years of Banyan admin chew through an NT network, chew is the right term too.
I was talking about a hiring a guy for a need. A guy with an MCSE and some smarts I can put to work and train. A unix admin with 10 years experience and no NT, I have to train him and then put him to work. Not to say that if the unix guy was good enough I wouldnt do that, but if he was that good, he wouldnt be looking for a NT job....

BTW I agree with learning to think, I wish schools would do that. I think it was in the movie "the paper chase" the law professor says something like "I will teach you to learn, and you will teach yourselves".

 

[tim0thy]

<< Management is always looking for bright guys that work like sled dogs. >>



Word up on that! I just happen to have worked like hell the way you outlined it. And yeah, I had to work my butt off to do FT internship and FT school. Not easy...

 

[tim0thy]

<< Try not to bog yourself down with specifics(still learn them), and try and learn the ideas and concepts behind them. >>



Yup... once you get the most basic concepts, you can build upon it and learn any other topic quickly...



<< I have little respect for most certs(except cisco) just because it doesnt mean too much about your technical knowledge >>



I'm starting to have less respect for CCNA certification because it's getting watered down like the MCSEs. CCNP level is somewhat more respectible and the CCIE level (woosh)... only 5300 CCIEs in the world as of Dec 2000.

 

[tim0thy]

<< well I know my computers well, I build them I fix them(for family and friends) and I have an A+ Certification, but im having a real hard time finding anything. 10 years of pizza hoofin and 6 months of Tech on my resume makes it pretty hard to convince someone that you know what your doing, with or without certifications. >>



IN general, A+ certification is geared towards technicians. It's like a stepping stone for more certifications to come. My own personal opinon though.

 

[tim0thy]

<< BTW I agree with learning to think, I wish schools would do that. I think it was in the movie &quot;the paper chase&quot; the law professor says something like &quot;I will teach you to learn, and you will teach yourselves&quot;. >>



IMHO, I think personality and ambition plays a part in this as well. I've known people who keep trying and trying to learn more and more, and it's totally admirable.



<< A unix admin with 10 years experience and no NT, I have to train him and then put him to work >>



It might be easier to bring in a decently smart guy in NT in rather than train the Unix guy. Mainly because after a while, it's hard to learn something new and totally from scratch. My aunt is an AIX person for over 15 years. She has an NT box and doesn't know what to do with it and it's pretty frustrating to try to teach her. Give her Unix, she'll probably blow my bum out the water though.

 

[jaydee]

Sorry for a little OT but: What if your looking for something more hardware related?

 

[Remedy]

You mean Hardware engineering? Thats what i am looking into but you also should have skills in both software engineering as well to balance your way in the industry, at least IMO.

 

[jaydee]

Yeah like working on the actual hardware portion, as in deciding the features of a motherboard, or figuring out how to implement onboard-RAID at low cost, or being involved in the design of the ev6 bus of an athlon or something like that. I like getting down to the bare-bone hardcore hardware portion of the industry. What do you think?

 

[tim0thy]

this is very OT since, i don't think there are any certifications for THAT. you will have to go to school and get internships for those. btw, those jobs are few... VERY FEW. if you want something like that, you have to graduate college in something like Computer Engineering with high marks or have some kind of references to get you in for that (maybe a professor or something).

 

[MSNY]

I am an IBM mid-range AS/400 applications programmer. I am NOT certified in anything that is MS yet I have a Computer Science degree and know 6 languages RPG, COBOL, Visual Basic, SQL, CL, and C++. I have over 10 years experience in cross platforming applications between windwos and the IBM world. I also have a second Accounting Degree which has come in very handy with Inventory programming.

I make top dollar as an applications developer because I am in a continual state of gaining knowledge and staying on the cutting edge. I don't beleive because Bill Gates or anyone else gives out certificates that makes then any better or worse then a guy who's got equivalant field experience.

...and yes I have taken many MS courses and when asked if I'm there to &quot;take the test&quot; I always say NO !!!

Stay in school, get a good degree and work summer jobs..thats what I did you don't need Bill Gates help !

 

[Castellan]

MSNY: Sorry to here you know COBOL

Everyone: I worked two internships at the same company. One was in HR as an AS/400 analyst using JD Edwards, the other as a third level technical support person. I finished school, went back to that company and started at 40, completely bypassing the helpdesk. Nine months later, I am the senior tech in my department and have my choice of where I go next. No certifications yet, but starting my CCNA, then going to go for my MCSE. Like most of the other guys here, I learned everything ;i needed to know on the job without the help of a cert.
We hired a guy two months ago who was an MCP (Server and Workstation) and didn't know how to make someone a power user on a local NT domain. People like that make certs useless in manager's eyes. If you have the opportunity to do an internship, DO IT!!!! It can only help you in the long run.

 

[Remedy]

Castellan, Good for you that sounds like a good outcome and the reason i started this thread in the first place. I wanted to know how many ppl actually went to school to get where they are now.

 

[gplracer]

Wow there are alot of good posts and information in here. Let me ask a question that has not been addressed. We have talked about getting degrees and getting certifications. What about someone that has a degree. I have a BBA in Marketing and a a teaching degree. I also have a masters in Administration (Education) I was thinking about getting another degree in technology because it seems to be the wave of the future. I have a decent amount of experience but it is mostly self taught. Right now I am one of those people that reads the forums and makes some money on the side building computers for people that I work with and others. What suggestions would you give to a person in my situation thatg would like to do something computer related in the future. As a teacher I make around 40K a year. I get summers off so that is good. It just seems that there are so many people in the computer industry that are making lots of money.

One thing that has not been covered are the areas of specialty. I know a girl that has an architecture degree. She got out 8 years ago. Five years ago she got into doing design work on computers. She designs movie posters and does commercials. She works with programas like photoshop and other graphical programs to create all of that. She is making 100k a year. Of course that is in California where the costs are very high.

 

[MrChicken]

GPL,

 

[MrChicken]

GPL,

 

[MrChicken]

GPL,

 

[MrChicken]

GPL,
I would get certified this summer when you're off, use that to get an IT job. Maybe work part time nights at a support position during the school year to build your experience up. After that make the jump to full time in computers. Then when the opportunity arises, parlay your degree and past experience into a managment position. Unless you find that you really like working with computers, and dont want to manage people.
It shouldnt be all that hard to beat 40K year, but matching that summer vacation is hard to do...

 

[wviperw]

Cool thread. It's neat to see all the &quot;older guys&quot; help out with the younger guys on how to get into the biz, myself being a younger guy.

I have read through the posts and it looks like the general consensus is saying a few major things.

1. Experience and a love for computers are numero uno (and it looks like we Anandtechers aren't lacking in this area

2. Certification helps get you started and they don't hurt to have (namely A+,MCSE)

3. Programming is probably the ideal

4. Go to college, read a LOT of books

5. A certain quantity of communication skills are necessary


Ok, a couple questions. First of all, getting into these jobs: I am 17. Where am I going to find a job that will atleast get me started? Something that might get me some experience, something to put on my resume. I'm in the middle of Iowa! The only job I have ever had is one at Burger King... So how would I even approach something like this? I am not exactly a &quot;people person&quot;, so that first interview ain't lookin' too good. I have the writing skills (I guess), but I am kind of lacking in the verbal department. Why can't I just get a job working on computers where I don't have to deal with customers...

I am studying for A+ cert right now. I am in no hurry, and am reading a book partly for fun. Is &quot;A+ cet for Dummies&quot; a half-way decent book? I am not serious about it yet because I dont' even know if I can take it in Iowa and at this age. I took an example one on the internet w/o studying or anything at all and I passed. It isn't hard at all, I just messed up on some of the lazer printer questions.

(sorry if my message isn't flowing too well) Lastly, there is the college issue. Being a junior, I of course don't know where I am going. I don't even know if I have the money (haven't talked to my parents whether they are paying part or not). Where would be some decent places to check out? I am currently thinking of a major in CS, with maybe a minor in computer engineering or graphics. It would probably be handy if the college was somewhat in the vicinity of Iowa. Where would you guys recommend?

Vi_edit - You got your CS at ISU didn't you? I thought I remembered reading that you did. If so, is ISU a good place to go?

 

[StanG]

My $0.02...
Certifications are definitely viable options, however if you have an opportunity to go to school and get a degree - DO IT!
After high school, I wasn't quite sure what to do, so I decided to go to junior college for couple years. While at juco, I decided that I wanted to be an engineer So I transfered to 4 year school, and got BSEE... While doing it, I was able to get 3 internships, which helped me a lot!
Because of these internships, I realized that I didn't really want to do EE, but at that time I HATED programming with passion (got lost w/ pointers ) So what did I do??? Got a job (w/ the company I did my last internship w/) as a software tester Lots of fun - you get to break somebody elses code - and you get paid for it...just as much as the guy who wrote the damn thing !!! Now, I actually enjoy programming, and in couple semesters will be finishing my MS in CS...

 

[Pakman]

I know this thread is getting pretty long, but I kinda want an opinion from you guys about what I should do. I'm currently 23 and I haven't gotten my bachelors degree yet (60 credits hrs). I'm currently in the IT industry making in the 30K's (started working bout 1 yr ago). I also goto a local University during the evenings (except this semester... wanted to take some Cisco classes). I'm wondering if I should drop my job and goto school full time? Or should I keep my job and goto school part time? So many choices. I'm also currently a MIS major, but I'm not sure if that's what I wanna do. Is it too late to change my major and graduate with a CS degree at this age? I might be close to 30 yrs old before I graduate if I goto school at this pace. Oh, I also have A+, MCSE, MCP+I, MOUS, and a few other E-certifications under my belt. What would you guys do if you were me? I really appreciated some of the advise you guys give.

 

[skace]

Hehe,

Call me lazy but, I don't have a college degree and also don't have any certification at all yet I have a great paying job. I am about to move up into an admin position from my current job as 2nd level tech. The only reason I get jobs, I guess, is because I know what I am talking about and I am able to prove it on the job. Also, there are way too many techs out there who have no desire at all to actually fix problems. I am only 19 and probably should go back to college...

Cya,
skace

 

[vi edit]

wviperw - Nope, I got my degree from University of Dubuque up in Dubuque. It's a *gasp* liberal arts school . I do know a couple people who are going through the CompE program at ISU though...it's not easy . Unfortunately, I could run laps around them in any &quot;common sense&quot; computer related question. I know one guy over there in the CompE program that wanted to run dual processors under Win98...DOH! I know another guy who couldn't even change his background on his desktop - double DOH! That's besides the point though Simply a couple fools following their wallet instead of their heart.

Pakman, my suggestion is to try and find an internship position in the IT area. It should give you an idea if that's what you really want to do or not. If you can afford it, I say go full time and knock out those last 60 hours. If you take summer classes, you can do it in a year and a half easily. If I was in your shoes, I would stick with the MIS/IT degree if you can. It really is one of the most &quot;useful&quot; degrees out there. You can do more with a 4 year IT degree than just about any other degree out there. It would be very nice to have under your belt. If if you don't like the field that much, you could at least hack it for a couple years making decent $$ to foot the bill until you figure out what you want to do.

I'm in that situation right now. I've only been out of college for 7 months now and I'm already planning a second degree. I'm thinking about heading back and nabbing a Mechanical Engineering degree from Univ of Iowa. I won't accomplish that goal for at least another 7 years, but I still am aiming for it.

Also, for those concerned about A+ degrees, IMHO those really only get your another $.50 an hour doing tech work for Best Buy or Comp USA. Any &quot;real&quot; IT job would laugh at an A+ cert. If you have built your own PC, and have been using them for more than two years, you could probably pass the A+ test without any studying. The only thing that you might get caught up on are those stupid laser printer questions