Computer Geeks: Getting a tech job without being certified

[smp]

I love this thread. Someone mentioned that a colleague 10 years younger than them moved on up due to a sociology degree... mabye my Fine Arts Diploma would help me then???? I'm 22 right now, would it be too late for me to get into programming at age 24??? (when I finally finish art school) I'm familiar with HTML, but my qbasic (programming for installation art) class is killing me.. I totally lack interest in Qbasic.. is it just me? or is it Qbasic that is turning me off? I'de like to learn a programming language, but I don't know which one to start with.. I'm obviously not a mathematician by any means.. am I a lost cause? I want to make lot's of money when I get out of school so that I can retire in a cottage and fish till I die.
<edit> I'm not one of those &quot;wannabes&quot; ... I genuinely LOVE computers.. I just like art too.</edit>

 

[jamarno]

It depends on who does the screening and hiring, and generally the less the interviewer knows about the field himself, the more he looks at formal credentials and less at the actual skills. So I'd say, get A+, MSCE, CNE, etc., and for hardware, the CET, because dumb interviewers outnumber smart ones by 10:1. On the other hand, a company that worries more about actual skills is probably going to be a better work place.

I can't think of any reason to promote somebody just because he has a sociology degree, but I can think of reasons not to hire a person whose only credential is such a degree.

A degree in engineering is desirable, especially a real engineering degree, not something in &quot;engineering technology&quot; or worse, &quot;engineering management technology,&quot; the favorite among the math-deficient.

 

[Remedy]

Yeah i was looking at sun's java cert, but first i want to get back to basics and start by hitting winblows studying.

 

[Rob G.]

Can someone tell me what's involved in the A+ cert? Is this run by MS? Never really heard of it 'till I saw this thread.

 

[tim0thy]

A+ Cert is run by COMPTIA

MCSE = MICROSOFT Certified Systems Engineer.

My addition to all this. I recently got my MCSE a couple of months ago. I later decided to go for my +I and written the tests for it for only one reason. Here are the figures:
~2500000 MCPs (bleah)
~300000 MCSEs (BLEAH)
~12000 MCSE+I

In general, I don't want to be put into the group of people that don't know what the heck ping is from their bumhole. I work as a system engineer right now, making a comfortable salery, but want to move and do system admin work. Certification does help quite a bit, but to remember everything that I passed (9 tests) is difficult. I do suggest if you go into an interview to know at least the core to the back of your hand.

BTW, if i was the interviewer, I'll ask how to map a drive to a share through the command prompt as another user. That should weed out all but the sharper ones.

Anyone wanna try answering this one?

 

[tim0thy]

amigaman, i have a friend that wrote the Sun certification. Basically, the test is very fair. If you don't know how to program in java, learn how to before taking it. You will not pass w/o knowledge of java programming.

remedy, why are you looking at the java cert if you are studying windows? first of all, MCSE is aimed to cater system admins or system engineers. Java cert is aimed for programmers. That's sorta like apples and oranges. In the industry people want specialization, not someone that knows a little about this and that...

 

[johnny1111]

Anyone else have anything to add? I don't want to see this good thread die.

 

[coder1]

What else do you want to know. If you want to start a separate thread for what programming technologies I think are hot items to learn, then we can talk about that

 

[Pakman]

<< BTW, if i was the interviewer, I'll ask how to map a drive to a share through the command prompt as another user. That should weed out all but the sharper ones. >>

Oh wow, this thread is still goin on? But anyways, I think i have the answer to that question.

net use driveletter: \\computer\shareddirectory usernameassword

I'm not sure about the username and password though... DOH! I'm incompetent. But then again, I've never tried it with another user and password. Enlighten me so that I may feel smarter. But then again, I've never been a system admin.

 

[azeker1]

Here's my two cents - feel free to flame away. Degrees are valuable in some circumstances (see above), training and certifications can mean promotions and raises (see above), and experience is always helpful (see above). Sometimes, this last one can be the most difficult to attain for people just getting started, because without experience, many employers won't even consider an applicant, regardless of his or her education and training. Often, an entry level position, temp. agency, volunteer work, internships or even a position as a student worker at your school can provide that much needed experience -- *Especially* if they are presented in the right way on your resume or in your interview. Depending on the position, all of these elements (education, training, and experience) can be important to varying degrees. The most powerful package is to have all three, of course. Nonetheless, there are other important factors to consider, as well.

Another element that is often overlooked in this field, is your ability to present yourself. By this I don't just mean your appearance and mannerisms (though they are very important, too), I mean your ability to communicate in written and spoken English. Not only will your written skills be on display to get a job (resume), but many times you may have to use them after you receive a job. If you can't write a proposal for a purchase or a summary of a project, if you are unable to document a procedure or send a coherent email, your chances of advancement *might* be very limited (depending on your job, of course). Secondly, your ability to communicate verbally is an initial factor (interview) and continues to be every time you interact with a customer, manager, or colleague. Now we all know super computer geeks with poor social skills that are amazing technological geniuses. Many of them are quite successful, indeed, and important to have around, but how many of them ever become managers, directors, or CEOs? Well-crafted resumes sometimes land interviews for candidates who otherwise might not have even gotten a phone call. Some folks get jobs and beat out candidates with degrees, MCSEs, CNEs, A+, and applicants with much more experience simply by interviewing well. Promotions often come only after an employee successfully *describes* to a supervisor his or her value to the organization. Part of the ability to network well, which others have mentioned as an important tool for success, is the ability to communicate and present yourself well. Don't get me wrong, technical skills are very important, experience is always an asset, and sometimes degrees and certifications can be helpful, but please don't understimate the importance of being able to communicate effectively.

Good luck!

 

[Remedy]

Ok, Let's put the teenagers into perspective here for a second.

You have a Senior in high school ready to graduate and has computers as a primary hobby but wants to look further into such as college but doesn't have enough money for school. So does he;

A) Get a Loan and goto college?

B) Go and get an A+ certification as a Stepping stone?

If he chooses to go for certs which certs are best to follow after the A+ test?

 

[Workin']

Go to college! I used to be one of those guys who said you didn't need school, you could get by on experience and so on. Until I started getting passed up for promotions or blocked out of better jobs because I didn't have a degree. So I chucked it all and went back to school when I was 28, and earned my engineering degree. Let's see, when I quit my job and went back to school, I was making in the mid $20k's. Three and a half years later (I crammed it in because time is money and I wasn't getting any younger) I graduated and got a new job at just over $40k. And now I make more than double that. So the 3.5 years and a small student loan sure paid off.

 

[DerProfi]

Whitedog, I disagree that lack of a certification will hamper a person's IT career. I think that lack of ***critical thinking skills*** and other intangibles are what can really hamper an IT career. Indulge me while I give a quick recap of my own journey into IT.

I got a BS in math and except for 2 Pascal classes in the 80's I am totally self-taught on all things computer-related. I left college and worked first doing data entry, then managed to nab a job first as a stats programmer and then after several years as a manager of small projects. I did not have what I considered an &quot;IT job&quot; until '96. When I decided to enter that field I started at the bottom of the food chain installing Win95 and resetting Netware passwords. But I read everything I came across and also played with any piece of software or hardware I could get my grubby hands on. 2 years later I moved on to a new company managing a crew of 10 handling both support and infrastructure for 2 offices. A year later and I was handling 10 offices in an entire region. 6 months after that and everyone from Pennslyvania to Florida was reporting to me.

Now I have no direct reports and I'm in a relatively cushy director-level &quot;IT strategy&quot; job. Over the past several years I've interviewed (and rejected!) plenty of MCSEs whom I wouldn't let within 100 feet of our networks, worked with loads of Masters- and PhD-having people who were complete idiots, and came across some of the sharpest people I've ever met who had nothing but high school degrees. So what do the most successful people I've worked with in IT have in common? What do I consider to be my most valuable skills? Off the top of my head I can think of the following:
- critical thinking abilities
- ability to use &quot;old&quot; knowledge and extrapolate from it to solve new, totally unrelated problems
- above-average writing and communication skills
- self-deprecating sense of humor
- self-awareness (i.e. Know thyself, and that includes knowing what you're NOT good at and being willing and able to admit it openly!)

Not exactly what you'd expect, huh? And what seems to make the least difference? Certifications. Oh sure, there's no denying that plenty of MCSEs and CCNEs out there will make lots of money in the coming years. But having the former by no means GUARANTEES the latter.

One other comment before I shut the hell up. Now even though I know some really smart and successful IT folks who only have high school degrees, they are not the norm. My advice to those who think that a high school degree + MCSE certification is better than a bachelor's degree is this: go to college. There are lots of invaluable &quot;soft&quot; lessons a person will learn by going through 4+ years of college which will serve them much better in the long-term than dropping $5K for an MCSE crash course just because that ad on the radio practically guarantees you a $50K job post-certification...

 

[MrChicken]

I tried to stay out this......

Experience vs Certs: You can cert without experience, you can have years or decades of experience and cant cert. I have worked with many IT folks with years of experience, the guys that most in the discussion here think are the guys to hire. I know a young man with just a couple years of experience and an MCSE he did on his own. I'd take him in an instant over those &quot;great, experienced guys&quot;. Why, he simply kicks their A$$es.
A saying I heard once just rings true in computers, &quot;having ten years of computer experience means at least 5 of it is worthless&quot;. These dinosaurs I worked with may be great techs on 5 year old technology, but couldnt run a modern network or fix a modern pc or server without struggling or screwing it up first more often than not. Hey, he ran a Banyan network for 6 years, NT is no sweat right? What would that guy need an MCSE for?

I cant count the number of people I've met that brush off MCSE's and yet cant keep their W95 pc from crashing, let alone run a network. The same with hearing that they're an &quot;expert&quot; becuase they worked on NT for 3 years, yet cant figure out what to do when the server crashes.

I judge people by what they know and what they do. Experienced? at What? watching a sever run for months on end and adding new user accounts? That must make you a genius and worth 10 times more money than that newbie that just &quot;papered&quot; his way to a MCSE, until that newbie has to tell you how make a bootdisk to rebuild your mirror.
Your server runs itself, and you still study, great can you prove it? Ceritfied? Ok Cool, answer a couple questions for me. Not Certified? OK, answer a couple questions then and I'll take that too.
Your server crashes all the dang time? What kind of an admin are you? Get out!

Show me a kid that went through trouble of getting certified and compare him to guy that brushes off something like Microsoft or Cisco certs as &quot;any idiot can pass those&quot;, and &quot;I've been a net admin for 10 years, i dont need no certification&quot;, I'll take the kid. I can train the kid, I cant train an old fool that's unwilling to see the value of training and certification.

Getting my MCSE was easy, all it took was 4 hours a day, about $2400 dollars worth of books, tests and pc's and 11 weeks. Easy.... yeah right.... I figure my 2k MCSE will be cheaper (still got the pc's) but more like 21 weeks. Yeah I am doing it the hard way, actually reading the books and using the product, so i dont like the &quot;paper&quot; guys either.

 

[Remedy]

<< watching a sever run for months on end and adding new user accounts? That must make you a genius and worth 10 times more money than that newbie that just &quot;papered&quot; his way to a MCSE, until that newbie has to tell you how make a bootdisk to rebuild your mirror.
Your server runs itself, and you still study, great can you prove it? Ceritfied? Ok Cool, answer a couple questions for me. Not Certified? OK, answer a couple questions then and I'll take that too.
Your server crashes all the dang time? What kind of an admin are you? Get out! >>



Damn that sounds mean man...

 

[MrbadGuy]

Go to college. My father has an american univ bs, ms comp science degrees. He got an entry level with Conrail Corp in philly and worked his way up into project leader/ high managment for 27 yrs making 140k a year. Now a multi-millionare from his investments. He forced me to go college from his experience.

Look at this way they teach MCSE,cisco in high school classes in my town eventually these peop;e will over saturate the job market. Lowering salaires, and reducing opportunities. Get a 4 yr degree, masters, and expiernce you will be far above them.

 

[MrbadGuy]

A Expiernced person doesn't mean tbey do good job. An expiernced driver (47 yr man) demolished my car from his negliance. I bet you somebody like Anand will kick the cr*p of somebody who has many years of expierence. Talent, work ethic, solving the problem is the only important thing.

 

[tim0thy]

pakman,



<< net use driveletter: \\computer\shareddirectory usernameassword >>



the above is wrong.

under NT, the way to do it is like this

net use <driveletter>: \\<computer>\<share> <password> /user:<domain>\<username>

yes, it's nasty, but it sure as hell is faster for me to type this than to do it under network neighborhood or any other way.

you got the net use part correct, i guess you blew away 1/2 the MCSEs

 

[tim0thy]

remedy, definitely, GO TO COLLEGE! Granted, I know people that have done very well w/o college, but they also have experience that superceeds me. The thing about college is that it doesn't just give you a skill like a certification, it teaches you to THINK. I don't know about you, but that's overlooked in our society. I can't describe how many times I've talked to someone and they just don't make any sense when I give them a problem to solve (and this is from the technical folks too).

It's always possible to go to some school that teaches you how to do this computer thing or that computer thing, but those teaches skills only. College gives you much more than that.

The choice is up to you and I leave you with this quote:
&quot;The world need engineers, but not a world full of engineers.&quot;

 

[tim0thy]

<< Damn that sounds mean man... >>



remedy, that's not mean, that's the fact of life. you don't know how many dumbasses there are in the real world.

in general, it works like this.
There are smart people in the IT industry and they make a crap load of money. Then there are mediocre and ok people. They make money too. UNFORTUNATELY, there are dumb, retarded, idiot, <add your mean stuff here> people that don't know crap... well, yeah, they make money too.

aim to be the best. always keep learning. IT is INFORMATION technology. it's all about knowing as much as you can.

 

[tim0thy]

<< Look at this way they teach MCSE,cisco in high school classes in my town eventually these peop;e will over saturate the job market. Lowering salaires, and reducing opportunities. Get a 4 yr degree, masters, and expiernce you will be far above them. >>



Honestly, I'm glad Cisco is doing this to an extent. They are educating the young, however, creating an influx of people to fulill the jobs of the IT industry. However, those that don't continue to keep on top of things and keep learning will soon be left out in the dust.

Scary in a way, but it just might raise the bar for IT professionals in the industry. Even a degree is only good for a couple of years before you have to eventually go back to school to keep learning. I'm thankful for certifications for this because I much rather learn on my own and keep myself current than go to school and be somewhat spoonfed.

 

[Remedy]

Hmmm, this makes me want to forget the cert trend and just get an assoicates degree or something. Too many decisions for me to make.

 

[tim0thy]

it's not that confusing. i suggest you go to college to get a broad idea what's out there. then you can decide what you want to do during college, and take the corresponding certifications to back up what you need to know/make the money you want to make.

honestly, when i was in high school, i had no idea what i wanted to do with my life either. so it's not that difficult for me to imagine being in your shoes.

 

[MrChicken]

Look, the degree is going to help you and so is the cert.
In most places, or larger employers, your resume has to get past the personnel department. A degree and Cert are two things they look for, because they know didly squat about computers.

Safe road is to go for the degree, then work on a cert in your senior year so you hit the job market with both a degree and a Cert. Somebody out there will recognize that you are gung-ho and give you a shot.

I look at it this way, I need a guy that can run a NT network and run some helpdesk calls. I dont need a guy with a degree or tons of experience UNLESS he can run an NT network and run some helpdek calls. You hear what I am saying? Most places need targeted skills, in my case a guy with 10 years of Unix admin would mean nothing. A guy with a BS in CS or IT would mean nothing if he cant use NT well enough to run a shop. A guy with a BS in CS or IT and a MCSE would get a look, and interview and maybe a job in that case. I wouldnt consider a guy with a fresh degree unless his resume showed some strong NT admin skills from somewhere.

Where that degree is really going to help you is 5 or 10 years down the road, when you will be presented with &quot;management opportunities&quot;. Usually having a degree is must have for management jobs, not always, but usually. It wont mean crap as far as helping you manage by the time you get the job, but it will look great on the resume.
Not to mention that going to college full time for 4 years puts off real life for 4 more years.

 

[tim0thy]

i totally agree with this approach and wished i did it this way. although a year after i graduated, i achieved my MCSE+I regardless. another thing that mrchicken forget to mention is to go for those internships. they are INVALUABLE! i can't stress this enough. the senior year of my college, i did a paid internship at a company and it helped give me SOMETHING to put on my resume. in college is the best time to try out different things and find out what you REALLY want to do. or at least give you an idea of which direction you want to take in the IT field.