super...i know..but you do have to give it up to him...he is a great player. from what i know, (and i do not kno him..just news and articles) he's a good kid too. he gets paid that much cause he has talent. i'm sure you and everyone in AT and the rest of the world has a talent that makes him/her unique. kobe is just very talented a bball.
Your argument is flawed. Firstly, Jordan also had Horace Grant. A younger Horace Grant in all star form at that. He had another all star in Pippen, arguably one of the best players in the league in his prime. Rodman is also among the great power forwards. Although Rick Fox was the #1 option on the Celtics...who else could the celtics go to? Yeah... Additionally...averaging 22 ppg warrants more than being just an "ok scorer." In addition to being an "ok scorer"(22.0 ppg), Pip was also an ok rebounder (8.7 rpg) and ok assist (5.6 apg) guy. (from 93-94 season)
Pippen overrated? Maybe now but not then. Let's see
93/94
Points: 22.0 per game
Feild Goal %49
3 point %32
Rebounds: 8.7
Assists: 5.6
Steals: 2.93
And this is just one season. Pretty impressive numbers considering this was the year Michael wasn't around. His numbers actually rose when Michael retired and dropped when he came out of retirement. So much for the whole "if Shaq wasn't there Kobe would suck argument". Not to mention 8 time all defensive team. Overrated? Don't think so. Michael would be the first to tell you if it wasn't for Scottie, he wouldn't have any championships.
93/94
Points: 22.0 per game
Feild Goal %49
3 point %32
Rebounds: 8.7
Assists: 5.6
Steals: 2.93
And this is just one season. Pretty impressive numbers considering this was the year Michael wasn't around. His numbers actually rose when Michael retired and dropped when he came out of retirement. So much for the whole "if Shaq wasn't there Kobe would suck argument". Not to mention 8 time all defensive team. Overrated? Don't think so. Michael would be the first to tell you if it wasn't for Scottie, he wouldn't have any championships.
<< Michael would be the first to tell you if it wasn't for Scottie, he wouldn't have any championships. >>
LOL, what else would he say? I don't care about the numbers, who says what etc. My opinion is Pippen had too many "headaches" and wasn't there in crunch time. The mere fact he was mentioned as 1 of the top 50 of all-time pisses me off.
Johnlee, thats exactly what I said. Rodman is a better rebounder and defender than Grant. But Grant isn't that far behind. I handed the edge to Grant because he can step back and knock down shots from close to 3 point range. Rodman was not an offensive threat, non whatsoever.
It's even more amazing if you think about it. The lakers put 5 guys on the floor who can score. Aside from Shaq and Grant, everybody else Kobe, Fox, and Fisher all have good 3point range. Grant can shoot very well almost from 3 point, so the Lakers really have 5 scorers and 4 shooters on the floor at all time.
How look at the Bulls. Pippen is really a horrible shooter from outside. He'll step back and knock down a 3 once in awhile or bank a few shots, but nobody really considers him a shooting threat and he is usually left open. Rodman absolutely does not score. Longly absolutely doest not score. Jordan is doubled team every time he touches the ball simply because teams do not honor any other shooter on the bulls team except the point guard. Makes you really appreciate how much of the load Jordan carries.
How good will Kobe be if he is double team each time he touches the ball? We saw what double teams did to the explosive Carter during the knick raptor series. Guess we won't know until Kobe plays on a seperate team than shaq.
It's even more amazing if you think about it. The lakers put 5 guys on the floor who can score. Aside from Shaq and Grant, everybody else Kobe, Fox, and Fisher all have good 3point range. Grant can shoot very well almost from 3 point, so the Lakers really have 5 scorers and 4 shooters on the floor at all time.
How look at the Bulls. Pippen is really a horrible shooter from outside. He'll step back and knock down a 3 once in awhile or bank a few shots, but nobody really considers him a shooting threat and he is usually left open. Rodman absolutely does not score. Longly absolutely doest not score. Jordan is doubled team every time he touches the ball simply because teams do not honor any other shooter on the bulls team except the point guard. Makes you really appreciate how much of the load Jordan carries.
How good will Kobe be if he is double team each time he touches the ball? We saw what double teams did to the explosive Carter during the knick raptor series. Guess we won't know until Kobe plays on a seperate team than shaq.
Do you think Michael would say something like "if it wasn't for Bill Wennington, we would be no where"? He wouldn't say something like that for any player on his team, I don't know of anybody that would. And Scotie did come theu in crunch time, i don't know what games you were watching. I hate Pippen as well and think he's a poor excuse for a nose, but I got to state facts here.
Jordan.....
For all those who vote for Kobe...how many have watched Jordan during his 6 championships?
Jordan has a better jumper, a better post-up game, could take it stronger to the hole, was a better LEADER, and was a smarter player who made his TEAM better.
LA's game still revolves around SHAQ and the Triangle offense...CHICAGO's triange revolved around JORDAN.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JORDAN WAS AS CLUTCH AS THEY COME...
KOBE may become all of these things...just not yet.
For all those who vote for Kobe...how many have watched Jordan during his 6 championships?
Jordan has a better jumper, a better post-up game, could take it stronger to the hole, was a better LEADER, and was a smarter player who made his TEAM better.
LA's game still revolves around SHAQ and the Triangle offense...CHICAGO's triange revolved around JORDAN.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, JORDAN WAS AS CLUTCH AS THEY COME...
KOBE may become all of these things...just not yet.
<< Johnlee, thats exactly what I said. Rodman is a better rebounder and defender than Grant. But Grant isn't that far behind. I handed the edge to Grant because he can step back and knock down shots from close to 3 point range. Rodman was not an offensive threat, non whatsoever.
It's even more amazing if you think about it. The lakers put 5 guys on the floor who can score. Aside from Shaq and Grant, everybody else Kobe, Fox, and Fisher all have good 3point range. Grant can shoot very well almost from 3 point, so the Lakers really have 5 scorers and 4 shooters on the floor at all time.
How look at the Bulls. Pippen is really a horrible shooter from outside. He'll step back and knock down a 3 once in awhile or bank a few shots, but nobody really considers him a shooting threat and he is usually left open. Rodman absolutely does not score. Longly absolutely doest not score. Jordan is doubled team every time he touches the ball simply because teams do not honor any other shooter on the bulls team except the point guard. Makes you really appreciate how much of the load Jordan carries.
How good will Kobe be if he is double team each time he touches the ball? We saw what double teams did to the explosive Carter during the knick raptor series. Guess we won't know until Kobe plays on a seperate team than shaq. >>
Again your only mentioning the Bulls of the 97 era. Keep in mind, the Bulls barely squaked by Utah that year. As far as Kobe getting double teams, he constintly splits them and drives to the basket for a dunk, a layup or assist. He had some monster dunks of both David and Tim in the Spurs series.
<< i don't know what games you were watching. I hate pippen as well and think he's a poor excuse for a nose, but I got to state facts here. >>
I was watching the games with Pippen sitting on the bench in the playoffs at the end of games because he had a lil headache. There were many more games he "disappeared" at towards the end also. It was too long ago for me to remember which ones exactly.
In the games I saw with Scottie, he would make huge defensive plays to change the momentum of the games in the Bulls favor. I guess my TV set is different from yours though...
chewie1, if you want to compare the older bulls team, thats fine too. Just don't throw in Horace Grant by himself.
On the Old bulls team.
Young Horace vs Older Horace. Younger Horace is a slightly better defender. Older Horace is a far better shooter now which really compliments his game with Shaqs. PUSH
Fisher vs BJ armstrong. BJ couldn't hold a job being the bench guy down in Golden State. He was a huge defensive liability due to his small size. Fisher.
Center. Willington vs Shaq. Shaq will eat him this guy even more than Longly.
small foward. Pippen vs Fox Same as previous. edge goes to Pippen.
If we are comparing the old bulls team, it worth the time to bring up the old bulls bench. Because they had no bench. Every guy on their bench couldn't hold a job as the 3rd guy off the bench on another team. With the exception of Paxon, the old bulls bench contributed almost zip during the playoffs.
As you can see, leaving Jordan and Kobe out. The Laker team is still much better.
Rodman is amazing. He is even at 37 years of age, the only power foward to ever guard shaq so well. But I still given the edge to Horace because of Rodman's total lack of offense and Grant's now outstanding outside shooting.
On the Old bulls team.
Young Horace vs Older Horace. Younger Horace is a slightly better defender. Older Horace is a far better shooter now which really compliments his game with Shaqs. PUSH
Fisher vs BJ armstrong. BJ couldn't hold a job being the bench guy down in Golden State. He was a huge defensive liability due to his small size. Fisher.
Center. Willington vs Shaq. Shaq will eat him this guy even more than Longly.
small foward. Pippen vs Fox Same as previous. edge goes to Pippen.
If we are comparing the old bulls team, it worth the time to bring up the old bulls bench. Because they had no bench. Every guy on their bench couldn't hold a job as the 3rd guy off the bench on another team. With the exception of Paxon, the old bulls bench contributed almost zip during the playoffs.
As you can see, leaving Jordan and Kobe out. The Laker team is still much better.
Rodman is amazing. He is even at 37 years of age, the only power foward to ever guard shaq so well. But I still given the edge to Horace because of Rodman's total lack of offense and Grant's now outstanding outside shooting.
<< In the games I saw with Scottie, he would make huge defensive plays to change the momentum of the games in the Bulls favor. I guess my TV set is different from yours though >>
Hmmmm. like alot of people here, you can't debate anything. Have to be a smartass. Next time get a better t.v.
<<BTW, the lower shooting percentages account for the numerous playing rules that have changed over the years. >>
Wrong. Name one rule change that makes shooting % worse. Oh, what about that 3-pt line....isn't it closer now than when MJ started? (yes it is)
If the rules changes have lowered shooting %'s, why are they also lower in college AND in high school? Answer: the player's fundamentals on average aren't as good now.
<<And Michael never carries his team at 22, carrying a team means winning games which didn't happen in his early career. >>
Oh? Let's see, the year before MJ got there, the Bulls were pitiful, not even close to the playoffs. Jordan in his ROOKIE year led the team in scoring at 28ppg, AND to a berth in the playoffs, their first in several years.
<<I am sorry but if you consider a team with perhaps one of the greatest coaches of all time, going along with Cartwright, Paxon, Grant, Pippen and other key players that made the Bulls team what they were as "sorry", then you need your head checked. >>
Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about that team, but that wasn't the team Jordan came to. Jackson was not the coach then. You're talking about the team they had several years later.
I was talking about the team that hadn't made the playoffs since 1981 that was SORRY.
Wrong. Name one rule change that makes shooting % worse. Oh, what about that 3-pt line....isn't it closer now than when MJ started? (yes it is)
If the rules changes have lowered shooting %'s, why are they also lower in college AND in high school? Answer: the player's fundamentals on average aren't as good now.
<<And Michael never carries his team at 22, carrying a team means winning games which didn't happen in his early career. >>
Oh? Let's see, the year before MJ got there, the Bulls were pitiful, not even close to the playoffs. Jordan in his ROOKIE year led the team in scoring at 28ppg, AND to a berth in the playoffs, their first in several years.
<<I am sorry but if you consider a team with perhaps one of the greatest coaches of all time, going along with Cartwright, Paxon, Grant, Pippen and other key players that made the Bulls team what they were as "sorry", then you need your head checked. >>
Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about that team, but that wasn't the team Jordan came to. Jackson was not the coach then. You're talking about the team they had several years later.
I was talking about the team that hadn't made the playoffs since 1981 that was SORRY.
Mark
<< the Bulls barely squaked by Utah that year >>
Are you kidding me? They completely destroyed Utah. The few games they did lost weren't due to Utah. If you look at the game, it was like Chicago just didn't care anymore. Too many championship will do that to you.
<< the Bulls barely squaked by Utah that year >>
Are you kidding me? They completely destroyed Utah. The few games they did lost weren't due to Utah. If you look at the game, it was like Chicago just didn't care anymore. Too many championship will do that to you.
They won in 6 games in both years against Utah. If Michael has missed that last shot in the last series, it's most likely the series would have gone to 7 sending it back to Chicago. I don't really consider allowing the opposition to have a chance to send it to 7 games "exacly" destroying a team. Your old vs new Horace comparison was also a laugher. If you owned a team and needed a Power Forward, who would you rather have? A yound fresh Horace Grant in his prime who can play 40-43 minutes on a given night while averaging 15 a game while grabbing 11 boards and shoot 52% doing it? Or an old Horace Grant past his prime who who gets 35 minutes tops a game while averaging 8 points a game, grabbing 7 boards, and shoot 46% doing it? I think the answer is clear.
<<I'm just bitter. I'm bitter because I worked my butt off during college. I'm bitter because I live in LA and they get some kid out of high school, pays him millions of dollar, and tell me that he represents LA. Right...like I'll spend another cent to buy another Lakers ticket to further fuel a 22 year old high school kids field trip to Italy. >>
with that statement, it shows you are a complete moron. so you hate on kobe because he is successful? you sound like the kind of person who would grow old and bitter cuz you feel like the whole world owes you something. instead of complaining like a whiney bitch, how about making something of yourself and stop hating on others because they make more money. so all this argument you are making ain't even based on the fact that you believe jordan is better, it's simply because you're a whiney lil bitch?
i don't understand why everybody keeps trying to compare jordan and kobe. i mean it's hard not to but to take it to the point where you actually try to look at every detail and see who is better is absurd. there are TOOOOOOO many factors involved to be able to even remotely judge who is better.
btw, if you believe the NBA has gotten watered down, why don't you try to play against 5 big guys averaging 6'6"+ foot. there has been more severe injuries in the NBA than i remembered back in the 80's. before, the NBA was dominated by big slow guys. now you have your big and your fast guys. let some 6'10" guy ram into you at full speed and stand up and tell me it didn't hurt.
all you haters need to chill. if you like it, fine. if u don't, don't hate it for stupid reasons and make dumb remarks.
p.s. attacking someone's character out of warrant makes you look stupid. whether that be someone posting or someone in the NBA.
with that statement, it shows you are a complete moron. so you hate on kobe because he is successful? you sound like the kind of person who would grow old and bitter cuz you feel like the whole world owes you something. instead of complaining like a whiney bitch, how about making something of yourself and stop hating on others because they make more money. so all this argument you are making ain't even based on the fact that you believe jordan is better, it's simply because you're a whiney lil bitch?
i don't understand why everybody keeps trying to compare jordan and kobe. i mean it's hard not to but to take it to the point where you actually try to look at every detail and see who is better is absurd. there are TOOOOOOO many factors involved to be able to even remotely judge who is better.
btw, if you believe the NBA has gotten watered down, why don't you try to play against 5 big guys averaging 6'6"+ foot. there has been more severe injuries in the NBA than i remembered back in the 80's. before, the NBA was dominated by big slow guys. now you have your big and your fast guys. let some 6'10" guy ram into you at full speed and stand up and tell me it didn't hurt.
all you haters need to chill. if you like it, fine. if u don't, don't hate it for stupid reasons and make dumb remarks.
p.s. attacking someone's character out of warrant makes you look stupid. whether that be someone posting or someone in the NBA.
what are you talking about the Bulls without the exception of a dominate center had the best supporting cast in some time. Horace was simply amazing back then with his top of the key shot. Paxon and Kerr where the most accurate three point shooters next to Mark Price back then. Pippen was an all star point foward who was an incredible roaming defender. Rodman was the best fitting power foward in the NBA for that team too. Rebounded played defense and got under the skin of Malone. Kukoc was the best sixth man in the NBA. Ron Harper was still a great slasher and defender at that time and if he wasn't on a team with MJ, pippen, and kukoc he could put up 25 pts. a game. I mean harper in his chicago days wasn't all that far removed from his 25+ pts. Clevelend or Clippers days. Buechler played a great fitting role and hit timely 3's.
I mean the Lakers have an old over the hill Grant, who doesn't make that many shots or handle the 4 spot like he used too (but that has more to do with the great 4's in the west). Harper is so old now he barely played this season. Horry who used to hit 5 or 6 3's for the championship Rockets can't hit the back board now. Fox and Fisher are a scrappy players who can occasionaly hit 3's (although Fisher was just insanely good the last series, he could barely hits shots before this season). So no it's not like the Lakers have a better supporting cast.
You seem to forget that the Celtics, Knicks, and for quite some time the bad boys of detroit would just dominate the Bulls. Hell Jordan only really developed his jumper after the Pistons hammered him everytime he went to the hole. The Bulls used to get schooled by the damn Pistons for goodness sakes.
I was in Phoenix during the pre draft combine/league where one of my in laws coaches a premier AAU team and the guy knows Tex Winter pretty well and is an acquaintance of Phil Jacksons. He too uses the triangle and (actually met Jordan while he was scouting players). He likes Jordan and is a die hard Suns fan so he doesn't particularly like the Lakers but even he said that comparing Bryant is light years ahead of Jordan in his development at 22.
It's like comparing Tiger woods and Jack Nickluas. Tiger is light years ahead of pace on Jack but Jack has 20+ grand slams in the BANK. Tiger still has only potential 30+ grand slams. It's not set in stone for him or Kobe but if the progress at at a somewhat linear rate they'll both be considered the measuring stick for future players.
I mean the Lakers have an old over the hill Grant, who doesn't make that many shots or handle the 4 spot like he used too (but that has more to do with the great 4's in the west). Harper is so old now he barely played this season. Horry who used to hit 5 or 6 3's for the championship Rockets can't hit the back board now. Fox and Fisher are a scrappy players who can occasionaly hit 3's (although Fisher was just insanely good the last series, he could barely hits shots before this season). So no it's not like the Lakers have a better supporting cast.
You seem to forget that the Celtics, Knicks, and for quite some time the bad boys of detroit would just dominate the Bulls. Hell Jordan only really developed his jumper after the Pistons hammered him everytime he went to the hole. The Bulls used to get schooled by the damn Pistons for goodness sakes.
I was in Phoenix during the pre draft combine/league where one of my in laws coaches a premier AAU team and the guy knows Tex Winter pretty well and is an acquaintance of Phil Jacksons. He too uses the triangle and (actually met Jordan while he was scouting players). He likes Jordan and is a die hard Suns fan so he doesn't particularly like the Lakers but even he said that comparing Bryant is light years ahead of Jordan in his development at 22.
It's like comparing Tiger woods and Jack Nickluas. Tiger is light years ahead of pace on Jack but Jack has 20+ grand slams in the BANK. Tiger still has only potential 30+ grand slams. It's not set in stone for him or Kobe but if the progress at at a somewhat linear rate they'll both be considered the measuring stick for future players.
Hoeboy
<< with that statement, it shows you are a complete moron. >>
Why? Because I expressed my opinion? When did that become a crime and a cause for insult?
<< all you haters need to chill >>
Yeah, it's easy to chill when there are people calling you a moron. Thanks for being a real classy guy jerk.
Oh, I almost missed the rest of your comments. Calling me a whinning bitch? Guess you didn't read my entire post. You're the one who went straight to name calling. Go F*ck yourself jackas
And stupidhoe, stupid whore, or whatever you call yourself. You need to learn how to read. When did I attack Kobe's character? I said I ain't going to cheer for him because he doesn't represent me. Go ahead you little punk, show me where I insulted Kobe.
<< with that statement, it shows you are a complete moron. >>
Why? Because I expressed my opinion? When did that become a crime and a cause for insult?
<< all you haters need to chill >>
Yeah, it's easy to chill when there are people calling you a moron. Thanks for being a real classy guy jerk.
Oh, I almost missed the rest of your comments. Calling me a whinning bitch? Guess you didn't read my entire post. You're the one who went straight to name calling. Go F*ck yourself jackas
And stupidhoe, stupid whore, or whatever you call yourself. You need to learn how to read. When did I attack Kobe's character? I said I ain't going to cheer for him because he doesn't represent me. Go ahead you little punk, show me where I insulted Kobe.
Mark,
Utah has always been a great executing team, I'll give them that. You have to admit, the Lakers had alot of problems playing Utah both this year and last.
As for bullz series against Utah, it might have went 6 games, but if you watch the entire series, you get the feeling that the bullz really weren't trying. It was like they were on cruise control and really didn't care.
As for the Young Horace vs Old Horace. You are wrong wrong wrong. The old Horace has proven his worth by shutting down Wallace and Webber while really controlling Duncan most of the time. I dont think the young Horace would have done much better. The young Horace, however, couldn't shoot like the current which is vital in the Lakers' current offensive scheme. Horace Grant developed his outside shot the same year he went to Orlando, he couldn't shoot worth a dime back in Chicago. The young Horace reminds me alot of Elden. Both can rebound, and both are outstanding defenders, but ultimately, Elden couldn't play next to Shaq because he couldn't hit the outside shot. The young Horace couldn't hit the outside shot as well.
And the Old Horace can still get 11rpg. He just isn't doing it with Shaq around. He did when he was playing with Seattle last year, don't forget that.
Utah has always been a great executing team, I'll give them that. You have to admit, the Lakers had alot of problems playing Utah both this year and last.
As for bullz series against Utah, it might have went 6 games, but if you watch the entire series, you get the feeling that the bullz really weren't trying. It was like they were on cruise control and really didn't care.
As for the Young Horace vs Old Horace. You are wrong wrong wrong. The old Horace has proven his worth by shutting down Wallace and Webber while really controlling Duncan most of the time. I dont think the young Horace would have done much better. The young Horace, however, couldn't shoot like the current which is vital in the Lakers' current offensive scheme. Horace Grant developed his outside shot the same year he went to Orlando, he couldn't shoot worth a dime back in Chicago. The young Horace reminds me alot of Elden. Both can rebound, and both are outstanding defenders, but ultimately, Elden couldn't play next to Shaq because he couldn't hit the outside shot. The young Horace couldn't hit the outside shot as well.
And the Old Horace can still get 11rpg. He just isn't doing it with Shaq around. He did when he was playing with Seattle last year, don't forget that.
Mwilding
you posting in another basketball thread? i'd go hide under a rock after that comment you posted about FG % and being fouled. shows you know absolutely nothing about basketball. please refrain from posting in any other basketball related threads.
you posting in another basketball thread? i'd go hide under a rock after that comment you posted about FG % and being fouled. shows you know absolutely nothing about basketball. please refrain from posting in any other basketball related threads.
sorry for my late appearance i had a job interview to go to
well im not gonna trash every one of your points except for one. i actually stopped reading after this one:
Small Foward - Scotty Pippen vs Rick Fox. Scotty Pippen is a far better defender, but Rick Fox is still an outstanding defender. Rick was the #1 guy when he was with the Celtics, he can really score and people don't realize that. Pippen is an ok scorer. Pippen by a thin margin.
pippen is one of the 50 greatest, sigh, you should talk bball w/ mwilding (sp?)
what i think is funny is that all you have is excuses. you do nothing but whine.
if jordan is so godly and kobe such a chump then why do you even bring this up? obviously you know deep down that when its all said and done kobe will have accomplished as much, maybe more, then jordan.
well im not gonna trash every one of your points except for one. i actually stopped reading after this one:
Small Foward - Scotty Pippen vs Rick Fox. Scotty Pippen is a far better defender, but Rick Fox is still an outstanding defender. Rick was the #1 guy when he was with the Celtics, he can really score and people don't realize that. Pippen is an ok scorer. Pippen by a thin margin.
pippen is one of the 50 greatest, sigh, you should talk bball w/ mwilding (sp?)
what i think is funny is that all you have is excuses. you do nothing but whine.
if jordan is so godly and kobe such a chump then why do you even bring this up? obviously you know deep down that when its all said and done kobe will have accomplished as much, maybe more, then jordan.
Kobe at 22 would sh!t all over Jordan at 22 in a 1 on 1 game
as much as i like kobe there isnt any reason to believe that. jordan kicked serious butt when he was young. kobe has a better shot but jordan could "fly"
as much as i like kobe there isnt any reason to believe that. jordan kicked serious butt when he was young. kobe has a better shot but jordan could "fly"
and yeah Kobe last year was like a first team all defensive member and a second teamer this year. Jordan alas was just a ball hog at that time. Although make no mistake about it MJ, Chamberlin and Bill Russell are in a league of their own. When his career is over Kobe might be better than the lot. And of course make no mistake about it within 50 years of Kobe's career they'll be someone better than him, and someone better than the guy that was better than him. etc etc etc. That is simply the nature of human evolution. As I'm taller, stronger and faster than my dad (and I'm sure most you are also taller and faster than your parents, though strength does continually increase with age at the cost of flexibilty and fast twitch muscles), my kids will percentage wise will be better athletes as their kids will probably be better than them.
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