Comparing AMD to Intel - Athlon XP vs. P4

high

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Sep 14, 2003
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I know this topic is probably outdated and people can talk about this until they're blue in the face. I am a supervisor at a Best Buy in the Computers section, and we get customers all the time asking "What is the difference between an .... AMD (whatever that is LOL) and a GENUINE INTEL PENTIUM 4). Obviously the cost is a big difference and a 2500 is rated at.... 2.4 or 2.5 ghz P4 style..? Please all!! I encourage you all to post to clear this up for myself and anyone else that may be wondering.

I also wonder how I compare my 2500 @ 2.25 to my buddy's and their p4 2.8's and 3.0's. I know SiSoft is a good util to compare, but nothing in 2003 can touch my proc so it doesn't give a good indication.

 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
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Hmmm... good question... how do you explain it to someone who doesn't know anything.

I guess you could say basically AMD does more work at once, but they have slower speeds... and Pentium 4's do less work, but run at higher speeds. And you could explain to them that Pentium 4's are better for media editing and 3D rendering... and that an XP2500 is roughly the same speed as a 2.5 Ghz Pentium 4 with a 533 Mhz bus, or roughly the same speed as a 2.4 Ghz P4 with an 800 Mhz bus.

I think the easiet thing to do though would be to show them an AMD based computer, and an Intel based computer, THEN explain the differences between the two.

*EDIT* Not trying to be biased towards AMD... but I think if you SHOW them each computer running, and let them use it a bit, they'll see that for basic Windows stuff, a P4 is no faster, sometimes even slower than an Athlon XP... and then the price tag will definately convince them of the choice to make. Also explain to them what a Celeron and Duron are... so they don't see a Celeron priced a little bit cheaper than an Athlon XP system and think it's a better deal.

**EDIT** About comparisons... there's lots of ways to do it... you could run SETI@Home and compare the times it takes to process a WU... you could run Quake 3 benchmarks with the same video cards... you could each rip a CD to the hard drive, then convert the WAV's to MP3's with the same settings and the same program... you could each use the same set of files, and use Winzip to compress them.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Here is my favorite analogy between AMD and P4 CPU's.

Company A created coffee grinder X to grind whole bean coffee. Its technology is a 2 blade system which rotates at
10000rpm. This system is rated at 20000 coffee grinding units.
Company B created coffee grinder Y to grind whole bean coffee. Its technology is a 5 blade system which rotates at 4000rpms. This system is rated at 20000 coffee grinding units.

Which one grinds the coffee better? More importantly...Which one makes the coffee taste better?


Dont get caught up in the PR numbers game.
Intel CPU's are fast. The fastest available.
AMD CPU's are slower than Intels in clock speed, but do more work per clock speed.
So they are really about equilovent, which one gives you more fun?
 

alexruiz

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2001
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You should point that both are comparable, and each one has weaknesses and strengths.

Intel will be better for video encoding, while AMD will be better for office and regular applications (running excel macros, etc) They are similar in gaming (Intel has a small edge), but a lot depens on the video cars of each system (A humble palomino XP 1700+ will humiliate a P4 3.2C IF the pally runs a Radeon 9200 and the P4 runs on the integrated graphics, even if they are extreme.....)

You could also teach them about video cards :)
I think of a computer as a car. The CPU is the engine, the chipset is the transmission and the video card could be the tires. A good engine mated to a slow transmission will be hampered, so a slower engine with a better transmission can match it or even surpase it. To go from home to work (mundane applications) the slim tires work well, but if you want to race (gaming) you need better tires (a good video card).

I assume most of them will used for internet and basic office applications and internet usage, so ANY machine will be enough.

I am partial to AMD so I would recommend AMD (similar performance, better price), but I tried to write my advice as simple and unbiased as possible.

Have fun

edit: the coffe grider example posted is great :)

Alex
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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I like the car analogy Alex but you should make it a 60's muscle car and the vid card is the carb :D That way in a sense you can relate pipelines to barrels on a carb, for the car buffs anywho.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
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Actually the video card should be the exhaust system because the CPU (engine) sends info to it, and the video card (exhaust system) is more like an output. =)
 

alexruiz

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Sep 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I like the car analogy Alex but you should make it a 60's muscle car and the vid card is the carb :D That way in a sense you can relate pipelines to barrels on a carb, for the car buffs anywho.

LOL... But do you think Joe sixpack looking for a new machines for sixpack jr. would know how that musclecar works?


 

high

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Sep 14, 2003
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Wow, very helpful guys. So aslong as the fsb stays in the same ratio 333:533, 400:800 the 2500/2.5 will remain fairly comparable. Thanks a lot for the inciteful comparisons.
 

bargainshopper

Senior member
Apr 13, 2001
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Not to put down PC shoppers at BB, but can they tell the diff? I don't think anyone can tell the performance differences between a PC (either AMD or P4) running 1.6GHz and 3 GHz with common apps.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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As a former Best buy Service center tech, you can let them know that their AMD system will be 5 times as likely as an
Intel System to have a cpu failure. You can also tell them that Best buy built computers (VPR MATRIX) wouldnt even touch an AMD CPUs.


But hey none of that matters....


YOu dont care about WHICH system you sell them.....


As long as the purchase a PSP.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
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CPUs are digital devices that do things in steps. Clock speed is jargon for the rate at which a digital device proceeds from one step to the next.

You can always do each step faster if you do less in each step, although it will then take more steps to accomplish the same task. The problem becomes what is the optimum division.

Up to Intel's transition from the P3 to the P4, both Intel's and AMDs CPUs performed closely at the same clock speed. Intel reduced the amount of work that P4s do per step, and bet that they could up the clock rate of P4s sufficiently to overcome the lesser amount of work performed per step. Because clock speed had become the number that sells computers, that would be a winning strategy even if they failed, because Intel could easily up the clock speed. The obvious response of AMD would be to "rate" their CPUs rather than advertise a low clock speed. Ratings have never gone over well. Intel tried to put out a rating of their own when the original Pentium (1?) was current, that never went anywhere. (Pentiums could do roughly twice what Intel's previous generation, the 486, did per clock. At least in Intel's rating system they could.) So AMDs goose was cooked.

AMD has a paper on their site completely explaining a rating system for CPUs. You do those several benchmarks and combine the numbers. You can come up with an equivalent clock rate by taking some particular CPU as a base. It used to say on their site that base was the original Athlon, the one before they added XP to the name, but the last several times I looked I couldn't find it. IAC, the idea would be that if an Athlon 1000MHz got such and such a score, then an Athlon XP that got 1.72 times the score would be a 1700+.

One reason review sites may not have rejected AMDs rating system is that at first P4s with the clock number always were inferior. You were hard put to find any benchmark that AMD XPs didn't beat the supposed P4 equivalent or higher. Review sites considered that fair. But it was unfair to AMD. They could have rated the XPs with a higher number relative to P4s. Intel has progressively changed the CPUs that they call P4s, besides upping the clock rate. There are different CPUs that Intel sells as P4s. At the top-of-the-line, it is now easy to find benchmarks where the P4 beats the supposed equivalent AMD XP. Oddly, there are still some where the XP beats the P4. These are the ones where the P4 changes haven't been able to neutralize the P4s drawbacks, or where the software has not been re-compiled to use P4s to their best advantage. A lot of games love XPs.

The P4 and XP use such different optimization strategies that no single number can sum up their relative performance which would not be misleading depending on what the user actually did.

Judging by what benchmarks I see on review sites, you would have to discount the value of Intel's SSE2 instructions in order to subcribe to AMDs XP rating system, but it is just those applications where SSE2 is used that take the longest to run.

I think most people would say the XP rating overrates the XPs at the higher numbers compared to P4s, and underrates at the lower numbers. Confining performance to what most people use their computers for, AMDs rating works out reasonably.

I would like to see AMDs rating system run on the various P4 types to see what numbers P4s get. It would be interesting. What is a P4 2000MHz? I suppose the Intel side would scream bloody murder.


 

high

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Sep 14, 2003
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Lol, yes we need that Service Plan!! But it's not so much which they need because 90% are surfin the net and sending email, but it's more to inform the customer and to look half-assed smart ^^. Also, this is for general knowledge for myself too. And by the way, I'm in the Best Buy Canada Co. where people love to throw insanely large amounts of money at computers that are waay overkill for their casual solitaire and surfing needs but hey, they NEED THE HYPER THREADING.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: alexruiz
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I like the car analogy Alex but you should make it a 60's muscle car and the vid card is the carb :D That way in a sense you can relate pipelines to barrels on a carb, for the car buffs anywho.

LOL... But do you think Joe sixpack looking for a new machines for sixpack jr. would know how that musclecar works?
That is why the best example is this:

A mother and small child are walking hand in hand in the park. The mother takes large steps at a slow frequency, the child takes small steps at a fast frequency - yet they travel down the path at the same speed.

Everyone has had experience with that example, so it applies to everyone. Even the grandmas who seem that they cannot understand a thing can follow that logic. If not, point out a mother/child or father/child walking in the store and they'd finally see the light.
 

sonoran

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May 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: smashp
As a former Best buy Service center tech, you can let them know that their AMD system will be 5 times as likely as an Intel System to have a cpu failure.
Was reliability seriously that far out of whack?
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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in all honestly..... YES.


The origional AMD socket A athalons and durons failed so much.

When i left the XP were just coming out and they were a little better.

Intel Has always had extremely low Cpu failure rates.

While 1 in 10 Amd cpu failed is best buy sold machines.....

Id have to say maybe 1 in 400 for intel.

Andthey sell equal amounts of both.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
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Originally posted by: sonoran
Originally posted by: smashp
As a former Best buy Service center tech, you can let them know that their AMD system will be 5 times as likely as an Intel System to have a cpu failure.
Was reliability seriously that far out of whack?

Look at smashp's other thread for how he feels about AMD. That said, I would take his numbers with a huge grain of salt.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
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Originally posted by: smashp
in all honestly..... YES.


The origional AMD socket A athalons and durons failed so much.

When i left the XP were just coming out and they were a little better.

Intel Has always had extremely low Cpu failure rates.

While 1 in 10 Amd cpu failed is best buy sold machines.....

Id have to say maybe 1 in 400 for intel.

Andthey sell equal amounts of both.

LMAO... what a tremendously HUGE load of crap. A troll AND a liar. Go to school steve.

 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
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> you can let them know that their AMD system will be 5 times as likely as an
>Intel System to have a cpu failure.

Except you have somehow got that slightly reversed. Intel chips are 100,000 times more likely to fail than AMD chips. Believe me: I'm an expert!

:)

When I see your first post that demonstrates knowledge on the subject you address, I'll take you seriously.

>While 1 in 10 Amd cpu failed is best buy sold machines.....

LOL!

In case you are unfamiliar with arthmetic: If AMD failed 5 times as often as Intel, and Intel failed 1 in 400, AMD would fail 5 in 400, or 1 in 80. Not 1 in 10. So you told two different stories in the same thread. Never do that !
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
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Originally posted by: smashp
As a former Best buy Service center tech, you can let them know that their AMD system will be 5 times as likely as an
Intel System to have a cpu failure. You can also tell them that Best buy built computers (VPR MATRIX) wouldnt even touch an AMD CPUs.


But hey none of that matters....


YOu dont care about WHICH system you sell them.....


As long as the purchase a PSP.

I can smell it, can anyone else? Yes, it's surely BULL$HIT.

Why this fool hasn't been banned yet I will never know.
 

LilHen

Golden Member
Apr 1, 2003
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: alexruiz
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I like the car analogy Alex but you should make it a 60's muscle car and the vid card is the carb :D That way in a sense you can relate pipelines to barrels on a carb, for the car buffs anywho.

LOL... But do you think Joe sixpack looking for a new machines for sixpack jr. would know how that musclecar works?
That is why the best example is this:

A mother and small child are walking hand in hand in the park. The mother takes large steps at a slow frequency, the child takes small steps at a fast frequency - yet they travel down the path at the same speed.

Everyone has had experience with that example, so it applies to everyone. Even the grandmas who seem that they cannot understand a thing can follow that logic. If not, point out a mother/child or father/child walking in the store and they'd finally see the light.

Short, sweet, and to the point. Best analogy I've heard thus far;)
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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New P4s will be better for gaming and video encoding.
Athlons will be as good or better at most everything else.
Celerons will suck at everything.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: bargainshopper
Not to put down PC shoppers at BB, but can they tell the diff? I don't think anyone can tell the performance differences between a PC (either AMD or P4) running 1.6GHz and 3 GHz with common apps.
Well, I can.
...however, it isn't enough to make it worth the cost.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
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Originally posted by: smashp
in all honestly..... YES.


The origional AMD socket A athalons and durons failed so much.

When i left the XP were just coming out and they were a little better.

Intel Has always had extremely low Cpu failure rates.

While 1 in 10 Amd cpu failed is best buy sold machines.....

Id have to say maybe 1 in 400 for intel.

Andthey sell equal amounts of both.
They need to get rid of whoever designs and builds the systems, in that case.
In that case. I have a feeling that case and reality are a bit off.
 

SpdElemts

Junior Member
Sep 29, 2003
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If im not ocing would a p4 2.8 ghz 533 fsb processor be better then a amd 2600 or 2800 barton in gaming?
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
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if you game, your video card will matter more after a certain point. not to mention all the other parts, fast memory, how much, how fast your harddrive is, is it raid, etc.