Colleges, that is enough out of you

[stateofbeasley]

Why is it that having research make a school, a good school. I never understood the correlation. This country needs to differentiate more between a teaching university and a research university, so the people who want to pay more to never actually get taught by the "top talent," who don't give a crap about teaching some punk kids anyway, can pick those schools and pay for the notoriety of riding on Stephen Hawking's coat tails or whatever. But if you want to go to school to learn something, then there should be a way to distinguish the quality of the teachers and curriculum, that doesn't have anything to do with research.

I never understood the correlation either. A faculty member could be a brilliant researcher, but a completely abysmal instructor.

I'm sure money has something to do with it. Brilliant researchers bring prestige to a university, and grant money (usually) follows. Prestige also brings press coverage, and gets people to apply for admission, which also means money in the end.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Trade schools teach people a trade. That's why they are looked down upon. They don't teach people how to learn, which is what college is all about.

I just don't understand why there can't be institutions that do both.

 

[alphatarget1]

I never understood the correlation either. A faculty member could be a brilliant researcher, but a completely abysmal instructor.

I'm sure money has something to do with it. Brilliant researchers bring prestige to a university, and grant money (usually) follows. Prestige also brings press coverage, and gets people to apply for admission, which also means money in the end.

Universities get a huge cut from professors' research projects... In case you're wondering.

 

[GoSharks]

If you pick MIT and they let you in, you won't get to look at research
until you're in your fifth year and that's if you are accepted for graduate studies.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I started doing supervised research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine during my junior year, and that is actually a pretty late start.

IIRC, the neuroscience department at Hopkins actually requires undergrad research to receive an bachelors degree.

 

[Triumph]

Trade schools teach people a trade. That's why they are looked down upon. They don't teach people how to learn, which is what college is all about.

Well, case in point, you seem to be exactly the type of person I'm talking about. So the ability to be ABLE to learn something, is worth more than actually being able to DO that activity. That's like when I go into the store, ask if they have something, and they tell me, "Well I can order it for you!" Well guess what fucker, I can order it myself on the internet. So what are you doing for me?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What a cowards argument in here. There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society.

Where do you think the education comes from? Who pays for all of it? Why isn't the cost of education a negative? Couldn't the time and money used for unnecessary college education be better spent creating actual usable wealth?

It raises the bar for all.

Which means that people who spent money on the education but cannot pass over the now "higher" bar will suffer from tremendous negative economic consequences (which is one of the "absolutely no negative"s of having too much college education).

If you're worried about your job, you probably should be. These people got a fuck-ton of debt on their ass and they'll gut your mother for your job. But my degree is getting devalued by so many graduates! STFU.

It's a very legitimate concern. Only a moron or someone indoctrinated with the fallacious notion that conflicts of interest do not exist among rational men would disagree that it is a legitimate concern. In reality, it really is in your rational selfish interest to have fewer competitors for your job. Amazingly, some college-educated people do not understand this even though blue collar workers who dropped out of high school can see this aspect of reality and understand it.

If ya can't handle the competition in this country, than just get out of the way. Go work the cracker barrel and be all you can be. The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

You've missed the point completely.

No one is saying that our society would be better if the average IQ dropped or if high schools fail to provide a basic education. The issue is whether or not it makes sense to spend huge amounts of economic resources (time and money) to produce a surplus of college-educated people. Does it make sense to train far more people for certain fields than the nation's economy needs? Remember, education is NOT free.

 

[werepossum]

Well, case in point, you seem to be exactly the type of person I'm talking about. So the ability to be ABLE to learn something, is worth more than actually being able to DO that activity. That's like when I go into the store, ask if they have something, and they tell me, "Well I can order it for you!" Well guess what fucker, I can order it myself on the internet. So what are you doing for me?

Not to mention, why is that learning about 17th century French poetry is considered to be "learning how to learn" but learning welding or electronics is not? A liberal arts education is great for those who wish to teach liberals arts, for those who intend to marry someone who will then earn their collective living, and trust fund puppies who don't actually need a job or whose connections can land a decent job. Ditto with women's studies and most other majors in university.

Whoops, forgot a big one. A liberal arts education is also great for a politician who really needs no other job skills.

 

[stateofbeasley]

I think the Liberal Arts have their place in helping people understand themselves, civil society, and the world. Such education can make better citizens. In some fields, Liberal Arts are pretty useful -- in diplomacy, teaching, military operations (understanding your allies, opponents, other cultures etc).

However, where it comes to products and services that have quantifiable dollar value, the Liberal Arts are generally pretty worthless. A Liberal Arts degree won't help you get a job as a software developer, accountant, chemist, carpenter, engineer, or auto mechanic.

I strongly believe that everyone should receive some Liberal Arts education. But I just as strongly believe that a Liberal Arts education should not be the only education a person receives. What good is being a good citizen if you don't have the skills to get a job to put food on the table?

That's the problem with a lot of college today. A lot of these degrees perhaps make people more able to think about the issues facing people and society, but that's just not enough to make it in this world.

 

[ShawnD1]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I started doing supervised research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine during my junior year, and that is actually a pretty late start.

IIRC, the neuroscience department at Hopkins actually requires undergrad research to receive an bachelors degree.

Post a link to the peer reviewed journal article that has your name in the credits.

 

[GoSharks]

Post a link to the peer reviewed journal article that has your name in the credits.

Really dude? I didn't get authorship (didn't expect to, I had time for a only few hours a week), but I'm in the acknowledgments. I'm sure I could have gotten 3rd authorship or so, depending on how much more time I wanted to put in.

Acknowledgements: The authors would like to thank *MY NAME HERE* for his assistance on this project, as well as the members of the Powell lab for their critical reviews of this manuscript. This project was supported by the National Cancer Institute (R01CA098109–02).

Collins et al. Opposing regulation of T cell function by Egr-1/NAB2 and Egr-2/Egr-3. European Journal of Immunology. 2008. 528-536
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117887693/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

The experience and letter of recommendation sure as hell helped me 1) get a job out of undergrad (The JHU name helped too) and 2) get into a top ranked PhD program (JHU name also helped).

How do I know the name helped? I would regularly be introduced as "This is GoSharks, he went to Johns Hopkins," and even now, 2.5 years out of ugrad, I still have people talking about my Hopkins education.

 

[halik]

Why is it that having research make a school, a good school. I never understood the correlation. This country needs to differentiate more between a teaching university and a research university, so the people who want to pay more to never actually get taught by the "top talent," who don't give a crap about teaching some punk kids anyway, can pick those schools and pay for the notoriety of riding on Stephen Hawking's coat tails or whatever. But if you want to go to school to learn something, then there should be a way to distinguish the quality of the teachers and curriculum, that doesn't have anything to do with research.

The biggest problem with this country's education, is how much trades are looked down upon, in favor of a 4 year degree. You have technical/trade schools that teach actual skills, useful marketable skills, but that person will ultimately hit a glass ceiling somewhere in their career, where someone with a degree in history or philosophy can get into high level management, even though they don't actually know how to do anything. There is no focus in this country on apprenticeships, or working your way through the ranks from the bottom.

Just about any trade out there has a college degree equivalent, where you get the theoretical knowledge as well as as the hands on skills.

Just about all machining-related trades = mechanical engineering. Auto mechanic = automotive engineering. Electrician = electric engineering. Construction = civil engineering.

 

[halik]

Post a link to the peer reviewed journal article that has your name in the credits.

One of my exes was a co-author in undergrad, it's not really uncommon for top programs:
http://en.scientificcommons.org/46163062

 

[halik]

Not to mention, why is that learning about 17th century French poetry is considered to be "learning how to learn" but learning welding or electronics is not? A liberal arts education is great for those who wish to teach liberals arts, for those who intend to marry someone who will then earn their collective living, and trust fund puppies who don't actually need a job or whose connections can land a decent job. Ditto with women's studies and most other majors in university.

Whoops, forgot a big one. A liberal arts education is also great for a politician who really needs no other job skills.

They have degrees where you learn how to weld and electronics, as well as finite element analysis and calculus. With today's technology, you NEED a college degree for these roles. How many welders are employed on Ford's assembly line today versus 30 years ago?

 

[Triumph]

Just about any trade out there has a college degree equivalent, where you get the theoretical knowledge as well as as the hands on skills.

Just about all machining-related trades = mechanical engineering. Auto mechanic = automotive engineering. Electrician = electric engineering. Construction = civil engineering.

Nope. I have my BS in ME, now working in a machine shop with 30 year welders, machinists, sheet metallers, etc. They know a hell of a lot more about real engineering than I ever learned in school. Maybe that's a knock against my education, which then would be a knock against the education system in general because my degree was pretty typical (VT). But these guys will never become head of the departments that they work in, because they don't have a piece of paper.

 

[halik]

Nope. I have my BS in ME, now working in a machine shop with 30 year welders, machinists, sheet metallers, etc. They know a hell of a lot more about real engineering than I ever learned in school. Maybe that's a knock against my education, which then would be a knock against the education system in general because my degree was pretty typical (VT). But these guys will never become head of the departments that they work in, because they don't have a piece of paper.

You never done any hands on stuff? I've only taken a couple of ME classes in undergrad, but they were all fun hands-on stuff (CAD and CNC... funzies!). My brother has an ME degree and he's had 3 years work experience in a co-op when he graduated.

 

[ScottyB]

Nope. I have my BS in ME, now working in a machine shop with 30 year welders, machinists, sheet metallers, etc. They know a hell of a lot more about real engineering than I ever learned in school. Maybe that's a knock against my education, which then would be a knock against the education system in general because my degree was pretty typical (VT). But these guys will never become head of the departments that they work in, because they don't have a piece of paper.

Great, so what happens when when of these trade industries goes belly up and these people have no other skills to utilize? Having a college education allows for a faster change in careers. Obviously there is some specialization that comes with certain degrees, but I would be willing to bet it would be easier for a person with an MA degree to switch careers at age 50 than a person with a trade school diploma.

 

[ShawnD1]

Great, so what happens when when of these trade industries goes belly up and these people have no other skills to utilize? Having a college education allows for a faster change in careers. Obviously there is some specialization that comes with certain degrees, but I would be willing to bet it would be easier for a person with an MA degree to switch careers at age 50 than a person with a trade school diploma.

Can you give an example? You're right that you can't use 30 years of machinist experience when trying to be an electrician, but by the same token you can't switch from mechanical engineering to electrical engineering.

 

[azazyel]

I am not sure if it's the number of degrees that's the problem or the quality of them. I think that if most graduates were getting degrees in nursing and engineering we'd have less of an issue here than the number who are getting degrees in philosophy and sociology. Those are what I call "me-too" degrees; i.e. "Oh, you got a degree? Me, too!"

One thing's for sure, I will strongly advise against my kids spending $30/year in tuition at a school to come out with no job opportunities. Too many kids, which is what a highschool grad is, don't take seriously the weight of a huge student loan with little in the way of near-term money-earning potential.

<- Social Science degreee and still using it.

If you're going to college with a specific job in mind, good for you. Personally I'm 33 and still don't really know what I want to do when I grow up. Right now I'm in IT QAG and while my degree hasn't helped me in my actual job it's helped me in my daily life. Basically I went to college to learn and I did.

 

[Kanalua]

There is only one law school for thousands of miles around where I went (University of Hawaii). My law degree is directly the reason for my income and a major part of my earning potential.

Law school in general, yeah it's a diploma mill.

 

[Triumph]

Great, so what happens when when of these trade industries goes belly up and these people have no other skills to utilize? Having a college education allows for a faster change in careers. Obviously there is some specialization that comes with certain degrees, but I would be willing to bet it would be easier for a person with an MA degree to switch careers at age 50 than a person with a trade school diploma.

I completely disagree...pidgeonholed professions can happen to anyone with any degree. And the more specialized you are, the harder it is to change. That's the real key - how specialized you are and not whether or not you have a degree, is really going to affect how hard it is for you to switch gears.

Machinists and welders aren't going anywhere, not within your or my lifetime, that's for sure.

 

[piasabird]

If the college campus is not safe then all the money on earth is of no worth.

 

[Triumph]

If the college campus is not safe then all the money on earth is of no worth.

That came out of left field...

 

[Xonoahbin]

Not to mention, why is that learning about 17th century French poetry is considered to be "learning how to learn" but learning welding or electronics is not? A liberal arts education is great for those who wish to teach liberals arts, for those who intend to marry someone who will then earn their collective living, and trust fund puppies who don't actually need a job or whose connections can land a decent job. Ditto with women's studies and most other majors in university.

Whoops, forgot a big one. A liberal arts education is also great for a politician who really needs no other job skills.

Tell me, where did you get your education? Wherever you went, they're very good at churning out narrow-minded people. There is a place for liberal arts--we need people who are well-versed in human connections for... human connections. Imagine engineers in foreign policy! Our world would be going to hell simply because nobody could deal effectively with anybody else. There is a place for both and a balance for both. I can't understand why you're knocking on liberal arts majors, suggesting that they only go on to teach liberal arts, don't make money, are lazy, or only get through on connections. You've proven to me, through poor argumentation and bad generalizations, that non-liberal arts education can't do everything. I think you prove the converse of your own position. Congratulations.

 

[werepossum]

Tell me, where did you get your education? Wherever you went, they're very good at churning out narrow-minded people. There is a place for liberal arts--we need people who are well-versed in human connections for... human connections. Imagine engineers in foreign policy! Our world would be going to hell simply because nobody could deal effectively with anybody else. There is a place for both and a balance for both. I can't understand why you're knocking on liberal arts majors, suggesting that they only go on to teach liberal arts, don't make money, are lazy, or only get through on connections. You've proven to me, through poor argumentation and bad generalizations, that non-liberal arts education can't do everything. I think you prove the converse of your own position. Congratulations.

Hey, I'm not knocking on liberals arts majors, they seldom give me the wrong hamburger! I can certainly imagine engineers in foreign policy, though; I can imagine them saying things like "Why the hell would I give you foreign aid when you vote against me 90% of the time?" or "Got problems with global warming? Stop cutting your damned rain forest!"

And my university didn't churn out people; it merely taught them a useful set of skills.

 

[werepossum]

They have degrees where you learn how to weld and electronics, as well as finite element analysis and calculus. With today's technology, you NEED a college degree for these roles. How many welders are employed on Ford's assembly line today versus 30 years ago?

Exactly. Welding or CNC computer programming or nursing are not necessarily less intellectual than a liberal arts education, it all depends on how far you want to take it.