Colleges, that is enough out of you

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Stop devaluing my degree and raising the bar of mediocrity by churning out so many damn graduates.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091209/us_time/08599194608800;_ylt=AmzTHFCASRblz6l52Mm_vW8DW7oF

Employers and career experts see a growing problem in American society - an abundance of college graduates, many burdened with tuition-loan debt, heading into the work world with a degree that doesn't mean much anymore.

The problem isn't just a soft job market - it's an oversupply of graduates. In 1973, a bachelor's degree was more of a rarity, since just 47% of high school graduates went on to college. By October 2008, that number had risen to nearly 70%. For many Americans today, a trip through college is considered as much of a birthright as a driver's license. (See pictures of the college dorm's evolution.)

Marty Nemko, a career and education expert who has taught at U.C. Berkeley's Graduate School of Education, contends that the overflow in degree holders is the result of many weaker students attending colleges when other options may have served them better. "There is tremendous pressure to push kids through," he says, adding that as a result, too many students who aren't skilled become degree holders, promoting a perception among employers that higher education doesn't work. "That piece of paper no longer means very much, and employers know that," says Nemko. "Everybody's got it, so it's watered down."

What's not watered down is the tab. The cost of average tuition rose 6.5% this fall, and a report released on Dec. 1 by the Project on Student Debt showed that the IOU is getting bigger. Two-thirds of all students now leave college with outstanding loans; the average amount of debt rose to $23,200 in 2008. In the last academic year, the total amount loaned to students increased about 18% from the previous year, to $81 billion, according to the U.S. Department of Education.

Meanwhile, the unemployment rate for recent grads rose as well. It is now 10.6%, a record high.

The devaluation of a college degree is no secret on campus. An annual survey by the Higher Education Research Institute has long asked freshmen what they think their highest academic degree will be. In 1972, 38% of respondents said a bachelor's degree, but in 2008 only 22% answered the same. The number of freshmen planning to get a master's degree rose from 31% in 1972 to 42% in 2008. Says John Pryor, the institute's director: "Years ago, the bachelor's degree was the key to getting better jobs. Now you really need more than that." (See TIME's special report on paying for college.)

Employers stress that a basic degree remains essential, carefully tiptoeing around the idea that its value has plummeted. But they admit that the degree alone is not the ace it once was; now they emphasize work experience as a way to make yourself stand out. Dan Black, director of campus recruiting in the Americas for Ernst & Young, and his team will hire more than 4,000 people this year out of 20,000 applicants. There are a lot of things besides a degree "that will help differentiate how much attention you get," says the veteran hirer, who has been screening graduates for 15 years.

Enterprise Rent-A-Car hiring guru Marie Artim, who says her company will hire 8,000 of 200,000 applicants worldwide, has found that her applicant pool is changing. "While 10 years ago we may have had the same numbers, today we have higher-quality and better-qualified applicants," she says.

So what does it take to impress recruiters today? Daniel Pink, an author on motivation in the workplace, agrees that the bachelor's degree "is necessary, but it's just not sufficient," at times doing little more than verifying "that you can more or less show up on time and stick with it." The author of A Whole New Mind: Why Right Brainers Will Rule the Future says companies want more. They're looking for people who can do jobs that can't be outsourced, he says, and graduates who "don't require a lot of hand-holding." (Read "The Incredible Climbing Cost of College.")

Left-brain abilities that used to guarantee jobs have become easy to automate, while right-brain abilities are harder to find - "design, seeing the big picture, connecting the dots," Pink says. He cites cognitive skills and self-direction as the types of things companies look for in job candidates. "People have to be able to do stuff that's hard to outsource," he says. "It used to be for blue collar; it's now for white collar too."

For now, graduates can steer their careers where job growth is strong - education, health care and nonprofit programs like Teach for America, says Trudy Steinfeld, a career counselor at New York University. "Every college degree is not cookie cutter. It's what you have done during that degree to distinguish yourself."

College, so damn expensive and merely solidifies you as average.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Law schools have the same problem.

A new law school seems to open every month. I think the parent company of University of Phoenix owns THREE law schools, and the ABA continues to accredit these institutions, most of which are worthless diploma mills.

I get extremely angry when I hear President Obama and other government officials talking about sending more people to college. They don't seem to understand that too many people are going to college and getting worthless degrees. A lot of higher degrees like the J.D. (law, or "Joke Degree" as I call it) and MBA (Mostly Bullsh*t Academics) are pretty worthless as well. The government backed tens of billions in student loans, handed out money like candy, and then made the loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. The whole perverse incentive system creates a situation where the student loan companies and banks win no matter what, and the taxpayer and student can only lose.

If schools taught actual skills, I might not be so angry.

But the fact is that in my 3 years of law school, I had few practical classes, and a lot of "required" fluff that in retrospect was useless.

 

[fskimospy]

Well it doesn't really matter if the law schools are diploma mills or not, you still have to pass the bar. In fact in some states you don't even need a law degree to take the bar.

 

[halik]

Heh college diploma doesn't mean anything, a good college diploma is a different story. You can crank out as many online degree folks as you want, but that won't impact me in any way.

 

[halik]

Law schools have the same problem.

A new law school seems to open every month. I think the parent company of University of Phoenix owns THREE law schools, and the ABA continues to accredit these institutions, most of which are worthless diploma mills.

I get extremely angry when I hear President Obama and other government officials talking about sending more people to college. They don't seem to understand that too many people are going to college and getting worthless degrees. A lot of higher degrees like the J.D. (law, or "Joke Degree" as I call it) and MBA (Mostly Bullsh*t Academics) are pretty worthless as well. The government backed tens of billions in student loans, handed out money like candy, and then made the loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. The whole perverse incentive system creates a situation where the student loan companies and banks win no matter what, and the taxpayer and student can only lose.

If schools taught actual skills, I might not be so angry.

But the fact is that in my 3 years of law school, I had few practical classes, and a lot of "required" fluff that in retrospect was useless.

Where did you go to college? All 2/3 of my degrees have been extremely useful to me.

 

[Genx87]

Nobody cared about where I went to school after my first job.

 

[0marTheZealot]

There's a big difference in degrees.

People who get degrees in Art History and East Asian Pottery (not even joking, this was a major you could get) are going to have a tough time finding a job.

On the other hand, if you get a degree in a demanding field (eg science/mathematics/engineering), you'll have many options once you get out of school.

That's why those statistics are misleading. Sure, 70% of Americans have a degree, but how many of them are garbage degrees? I'd be willing to put money down that at least 35% of those people have garbage degrees.

 

[Schadenfroh]

I had few practical classes, and a lot of "required" fluff that in retrospect was useless.

I am a graduate research assistant and I rarely use anything that I learned in my advanced math and CS theory classes outside of other classes. The people I knew back in undergrad that bailed on CS early on and went into CIS (or related disciplines) seemed to learn much more useful things in their classes. But, I can write a slick proof!

 

[EagleKeeper]

There's a big difference in degrees.

People who get degrees in Art History and East Asian Pottery (not even joking, this was a major you could get) are going to have a tough time finding a job.

On the other hand, if you get a degree in a demanding field (eg science/mathematics/engineering), you'll have many options once you get out of school.

That's why those statistics are misleading. Sure, 70% of Americans have a degree, but how many of them are garbage degrees? I'd be willing to put money down that at least 35% of those people have garbage degrees.

As the employment pressure for a degree increases, more and more cookie cutter degrees will be generated.

For some positions, any degree will do; the quality does not matter.
The theory is that if you have the discipline to get through 3-4 years of school; you are able to be molded into a position.

For others, the schools sell the dream degrees as a money making operation.

Then you have the "exceptional student athletes" that want to get into the pros.

 

[nonameo]

A college degree may not get you what it used to, but the fact is that many employers will not even look at you unless you at least have SOME kind of degree, even if it is east asian pottery.

That said, there are even a lot of tough degrees out there that aren't worth much.

 

[werepossum]

A college degree may not get you what it used to, but the fact is that many employers will not even look at you unless you at least have SOME kind of degree, even if it is east asian pottery.

That said, there are even a lot of tough degrees out there that aren't worth much.

Yes, I had some classes with a lovely lady with a BS in Chemistry, a pretty difficult degree (to me anyway.) She was going back to school to get a BS in Chemical Engineering because she could not get a job with her original degree. A two-year technical degree in chemistry, yes, a chemical engineering degree, yes, but a BS in chemistry, no.

 

[Fenixgoon]

it's a damn good thing not enough people can do math well

engineering FTMFW!

 

[First]

Depends entirely on where you went and what you studied. A degree in communications from an online university probably isn't as impressive as an engineering degree from MIT. Employers know this and take it into consideration.

 

[Carmen813]

Only in America is a more educated people a bad thing.

 

[charrison]

I am a graduate research assistant and I rarely use anything that I learned in my advanced math and CS theory classes outside of other classes. The people I knew back in undergrad that bailed on CS early on and went into CIS (or related disciplines) seemed to learn much more useful things in their classes. But, I can write a slick proof!

That depends on the school. My CS education had proofs and practical stuff. The corresponding CIS people can barely write code.

 

[nonameo]

As the employment pressure for a degree increases, more and more cookie cutter degrees will be generated.

For some positions, any degree will do; the quality does not matter.
The theory is that if you have the discipline to get through 3-4 years of school; you are able to be molded into a position.

For others, the schools sell the dream degrees as a money making operation.

Then you have the "exceptional student athletes" that want to get into the pros.

or: maybe some employers want people that come from a certain walk of life, and a degree is the strongest correlation?

 

[alphatarget1]

Only in America is a more educated people a bad thing.

What the hell is "education"? Do you really think everyone who went through college is more enlightened than people who haven't? I'll tell you this from my personal experience: For 50+% of the students who go to college, college is nothing more than a place to get wasted and get laid. People aren't there to get an education. They don't care about knowledge. They just want a piece of paper that (they think) will get them a good job, be a CEO and play golf all day without working.

 

[ScottyB]

What the hell is "education"? Do you really think everyone who went through college is more enlightened than people who haven't? I'll tell you this from my personal experience: For 50+% of the students who go to college, college is nothing more than a place to get wasted and get laid. People aren't there to get an education. They don't care about knowledge. They just want a piece of paper that (they think) will get them a good job, be a CEO and play golf all day without working.

Yep. Education is worthless. People should get the basics down in Kindergarten (coloring within lines, spelling their names, counting to ten, etc) and then off to work in the mines. Hurray ignorance!

 

[daishi5]

Only in America is a more educated people a bad thing.

The problem is not that we have more educated people, the problem is we are not getting a very good return for many of the students we educate. I just said this in another thread, but high school degrees have become so worthless that college degrees now seem to fill the role of identifying people with a basic level of competence.

My fiancee has a music degree, and makes quite a bit less than I do, and I have yet to graduate. However, that degree did get her a job. Because it tells the employer that her college vouches for her ability to use the english language, comprehend written material, perform basic math, and work in a team environment. So, the employer pays her a bit more, because it is less risky to hire someone that a college has tested for these basic skills.

 

[Zebo]

Education is what you make it. Do you have a clear purpose and goals? Are you making lists to attain them? Are you getting good grades?

Yes, there are too many who will never even use their degree in a professional capacity but that doesn't take away the mind development and critical thinking that went on there so it's not a waste.

Also why yes the feds have distorted the education market with loans but I'd rather have a system where everyone gets a fair shot than just the privileged or very smart who slide in under scholarship.

 

[Herr Kutz]

One of the main problems in colleges today is the "curve". It merely encourages mediocrity and allows people to earn a degree who shouldn't have one.

And for what it's worth, I am currently in college. I see idiots passing classes they never should have.

Think about it. Do you want people who passed a class due to a curve designing your bridges, buildings, and other infrastructure?

Edit: We also need to remove the surplus of classes that liberals added in simply to give themselves jobs. I am required to take so many classes that do not in any way pertain to my major, and I feel that time could better spent in classes that will actually help me in my field.

 

[Colt45]

In 1973, a bachelor's degree was more of a rarity, since just 47% of high school graduates went on to college. By October 2008, that number had risen to nearly 70%.

70%? I really can't see that. Maybe 70% of middle and upper class, maybe, and just enrolling, not passing.

Or are they counting 6 month courses at the local technical school as "going to college"?

 

[stateofbeasley]

Well it doesn't really matter if the law schools are diploma mills or not, you still have to pass the bar. In fact in some states you don't even need a law degree to take the bar.

I passed 2 bar exams (PA and NJ) on the first try, both of which were a joke.

The MBE portion of the exam is straight up multiple choice on Common Law that no state uses. The state specific essays you generally get most credit for if you just use the IRAC format. You don't even have to get the law correct.

You only need something like a 60%, equivalent to a D-, to pass in most years. The only reason people fail is because they get nervous and panic and then don't pace themselves well on the questions. The knowledge itself is pretty basic.

Yep. Education is worthless. People should get the basics down in Kindergarten (coloring within lines, spelling their names, counting to ten, etc) and then off to work in the mines. Hurray ignorance!

That's not the issue.

The issue is that the education does not correspond to the skill demands of the marketplace, and that it is too expensive and puts new graduates in a lot of debt.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Also why yes the feds have distorted the education market with loans but I'd rather have a system where everyone gets a fair shot than just the privileged or very smart who slide in under scholarship.

A fair shot?

The "system" as it stands doesn't give the poor a "fair shot".

What it does is chain most people to five or six figures of debt for the next 20 years, while the wealthy don't need loans at all.

There are tens of thousands of law graduates dragging 120,000-150,000 $US in non-dischargeable student loan debt, with jobs that can barely support them, if they have a job at all. The rich have no debt, and the connections to get a cushy job.

That's not a fair shot. That's being condemned like the Ghost of Jacob Marley to drag around the chains of debt.

 

[StageLeft]

I am not sure if it's the number of degrees that's the problem or the quality of them. I think that if most graduates were getting degrees in nursing and engineering we'd have less of an issue here than the number who are getting degrees in philosophy and sociology. Those are what I call "me-too" degrees; i.e. "Oh, you got a degree? Me, too!"

One thing's for sure, I will strongly advise against my kids spending $30/year in tuition at a school to come out with no job opportunities. Too many kids, which is what a highschool grad is, don't take seriously the weight of a huge student loan with little in the way of near-term money-earning potential.