Colleges, that is enough out of you

[Brainonska511]

I'm not quite sure why it would be any different in the US. As far as I can tell, both countries have the same system. Public university in the US is somewhat cheap; Washington State University's tuition (including mandatory fees) is $8500 and the remaining cost is covered by the government. Private universities are not subsidized, so you end up with crap like MIT costing $36,400 per year. Why are these private universities profitable in the US and not Canada? I have no idea. Maybe some people just like paying an extra 20k per year for no good reason.

You realize that MIT isn't some crap school, right?

 

[ShawnD1]

You realize that MIT isn't some crap school, right?

Neither is WSU, yet it costs 1/4 as much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_University#Research

In terms of productivity, plant sciences faculty rank No. 2 in the nation, animal sciences faculty rank fourth, and food science faculty rank sixth according to Academic Analytics’ 2007 Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index™.[29]

In 2001, WSU professor M. Grant Norton and University of Idaho physics professor David McIlroy were the first scientists to create nanosprings.[31] Recent positron research discoveries could yield the first practical method for containing and transporting an antimatter fuel.

WSU is also home to one of the few remaining Nuclear Research Reactors in the country. The Nuclear Radiation Center is a 1MW TRIGA Conversion reactor built in 1961 during Eisenhower's atoms for peace initiative. It is a very potent research tool utilized by WSU's radiochemistry graduate program, as well as providing education on the nuclear industry to the public through talks and facility tours.

Other research highlights include studies of the effects of sleep and sleep loss on human cognitive functioning, work to advance shock compression science with contracts awarded to the WSU Institute for Shock Physics by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Department of Energy, and a program funded by the National Science Foundation that trains doctoral students to analyze evolutionary processes. Reproductive biologist Patricia A. Hunt was named one of the top 50 researchers of 2007 by Scientific American for her work showing a potential threat to human health posed by bisphenol A (BPA), a component of the polycarbonate plastics used to make food and beverage containers.[32]

Washington State University spent $283.1 million on research in the 2008 fiscal year. In 2007 National Science Foundation rankings of research and development expenditures, WSU ranked 82nd among all research institutions, 22nd among public research universities without a medical school, and 57th among all public institutions.[33]

Keep in mind that undergrads are not involved in research. Even if a school is the top research school in the entire country, that doesn't help your education since you won't be a part of it. Having an engineering degree from MIT isn't any better than having one from WSU or University of Idaho. The only difference is that your debt will be almost $110k from MIT instead of a more reasonable $26k if you attended a public university. Seriously, how do these universities stay in business? Do people line up to throw money in the garbage?

 

[Brainonska511]

Neither is WSU, yet it costs 1/4 as much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_University#Research



Keep in mind that undergrads are not involved in research. Even if a school is the top research school in the entire country, that doesn't help your education since you won't be a part of it. Having an engineering degree from MIT isn't any better than having one from WSU or University of Idaho. The only difference is that your debt will be almost $110k from MIT instead of a more reasonable $26k if you attended a public university. Seriously, how do these universities stay in business? Do people line up to throw money in the garbage?

If you go to a top university looking for a science-based degree and do no research, you are an idiot and are scoffing the opportunities available to you by attending such a school.

Additionally, public schools are not that cheap. Out of state tuition applies in many cases. Many states have fairly mediocre schools and do not have larger, research-centered institutions that attract top talent in various fields.

 

[ebaycj]

Neither is WSU, yet it costs 1/4 as much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_University#Research



Keep in mind that undergrads are not involved in research. Even if a school is the top research school in the entire country, that doesn't help your education since you won't be a part of it. Having an engineering degree from MIT isn't any better than having one from WSU or University of Idaho. The only difference is that your debt will be almost $110k from MIT instead of a more reasonable $26k if you attended a public university. Seriously, how do these universities stay in business? Do people line up to throw money in the garbage?

An engineering degree from MIT gets you a job anywhere you want, and will continue to do so for the rest of your life, due mostly to the school's reputation.

 

[ShawnD1]

If you go to a top university looking for a science-based degree and do no research, you are an idiot and are scoffing the opportunities available to you by attending such a school.

True, but something tells me that most of MIT's students are probably undergrads. Same for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. One of my internet friends goes to Lehigh for the bargain basement price of only $38,000 per year as an undergrad.

Additionally, public schools are not that cheap. Out of state tuition applies in many cases. Many states have fairly mediocre schools and do not have larger, research-centered institutions that attract top talent in various fields.

Which states have bad schools? Even if you're paying the 15k out of state tuition, that's still a >50% discount. Not bad.
If you pick MIT and they let you in, you won't get to look at research
until you're in your fifth year and that's if you are accepted for graduate studies.


Seems like a cultural thing. Many Americans don't seem to think it's a problem to get more than $100,000 in debt before the age of 25, and that's what allows private universities to exist and pump out as many grads as they do. Grads from private institutions are very qualified, I'm not doubting that, but it floods the market.
It just seems so foreign to me since I live in a place where guys with 2 years of education with a total cost of less than $10,000 go on to make $50,000 starting salaries. My community college's job placement survey can be seen here. I assure you those numbers are accurate. My brother is a mechanical engineering grad, cousin is a petroleum engineering grad, and both of their starting salaries were roughly what it says.


Luckily MIT has the balls to keep track of their grads and post some statistics. MIT 2008 job survey.
It's long and very detailed so correct me if I'm reading it wrong.
-Civil engineers with a 4-year degree earn $58,000
-Mechanical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $63,000
-Electrical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $79,000 (excellent)
-Chemical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $58,000

Overall it doesn't look like MIT grads are doing better than anyone else. Why are Americans willing to pay over 30k per year to attend a school like MIT? This is why you have so many college grads. People want education so bad that they'll pay any price to get it. The market is now flooded.

 

[Generator]

What a cowards argument in here. There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society. It raises the bar for all. If you're worried about your job, you probably should be. These people got a fuck-ton of debt on their ass and they'll gut your mother for your job. But my degree is getting devalued by so many graduates! STFU.

If ya can't handle the competition in this country, than just get out of the way. Go work the cracker barrel and be all you can be. The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

 

[Colt45]

What a cowards argument in here. There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society. It raises the bar for all. If you're worried about your job, you probably should be. These people got a fuck-ton of debt on their ass and they'll gut your mother for your job. But my degree is getting devalued by so many graduates! STFU.

If ya can't handle the competition in this country, than just get out of the way. Go work the cracker barrel and be all you can be. The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

Yeah, everyone should need a degree to empty trash cans and work at mcdonalds... D:

 

[alphatarget1]

-Chemical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $58,000

wtf. My friend who is doing his phD in ChemE said people graduate with a BS and get 80k out of school if they work for an oil company...

 

[alphatarget1]

The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

Epic fail.

 

[stateofbeasley]

There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society. It raises the bar for all.
...

The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

Your argument makes no sense. Intelligence, smarts, etc. don't necessarily translate into jobs. It takes entrepreneurial drive, which is different from book learning, to create and run a business. College doesn't give this to people -- they find it within themselves.

There may be no negative to an educated society, but there is a huge negative in having millions of young people trapped under enormous amounts of loans.

I have a bridge to sell you, and I can arrange subprime financing as well. Did you learn ANYTHING from the recent financial crisis?

 

[Triumph]

From one of the links in your article:

While state and federal funding dwindles and demand for college degrees continues to rise, tuition rates have soared — as has the need for better amenities to justify the higher expense.

and

Tanning salons, pool waterfalls, Mongolian grills, and hot tubs large enough for 15 people are some of the amenities offered at colleges across the country — like Boston University's new 35-foot climbing wall.

And we wonder why college is so expensive, and we argue that the gub'ment needs to do something about it. IT'S DEMAND, STUPID.

 

[whylaff]

There are some people who should not go to college. Dumb people are diluting the value of a college education.

 

[Carmen813]

Reading this thread has convinced me that P&N operates in a separate reality.

 

[Special K]

What a cowards argument in here. There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society. It raises the bar for all. If you're worried about your job, you probably should be. These people got a fuck-ton of debt on their ass and they'll gut your mother for your job. But my degree is getting devalued by so many graduates! STFU.

If ya can't handle the competition in this country, than just get out of the way. Go work the cracker barrel and be all you can be. The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having an educated society, but when many degrees cause the students to incur thousands of dollars of student loan debt and don't pay a correspondingly high salary, then something is wrong.

 

[fskimospy]

Reading this thread has convinced me that P&N operates in a separate reality.

Wait, it took you until THIS thread to realize that the people posting in P&N aren't in touch with reality?

 

[RaistlinZ]

What a cowards argument in here. There is absolutely no negative in having a educated society. It raises the bar for all. If you're worried about your job, you probably should be. These people got a fuck-ton of debt on their ass and they'll gut your mother for your job. But my degree is getting devalued by so many graduates! STFU.

If ya can't handle the competition in this country, than just get out of the way. Go work the cracker barrel and be all you can be. The more smarter people there are, the more employment they will be able to create.

/facepalm

 

[Fenixgoon]

wtf. My friend who is doing his phD in ChemE said people graduate with a BS and get 80k out of school if they work for an oil company...

those numbers are averages. hell, i had friends working at oil companies on co-op making 60k/year

 

[Brainonska511]

True, but something tells me that most of MIT's students are probably undergrads. Same for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. One of my internet friends goes to Lehigh for the bargain basement price of only $38,000 per year as an undergrad.


Which states have bad schools? Even if you're paying the 15k out of state tuition, that's still a >50% discount. Not bad.
If you pick MIT and they let you in, you won't get to look at research
until you're in your fifth year and that's if you are accepted for graduate studies.


Seems like a cultural thing. Many Americans don't seem to think it's a problem to get more than $100,000 in debt before the age of 25, and that's what allows private universities to exist and pump out as many grads as they do. Grads from private institutions are very qualified, I'm not doubting that, but it floods the market.
It just seems so foreign to me since I live in a place where guys with 2 years of education with a total cost of less than $10,000 go on to make $50,000 starting salaries. My community college's job placement survey can be seen here. I assure you those numbers are accurate. My brother is a mechanical engineering grad, cousin is a petroleum engineering grad, and both of their starting salaries were roughly what it says.


Luckily MIT has the balls to keep track of their grads and post some statistics. MIT 2008 job survey.
It's long and very detailed so correct me if I'm reading it wrong.
-Civil engineers with a 4-year degree earn $58,000
-Mechanical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $63,000
-Electrical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $79,000 (excellent)
-Chemical engineers with a 4-year degree earn $58,000

Overall it doesn't look like MIT grads are doing better than anyone else. Why are Americans willing to pay over 30k per year to attend a school like MIT? This is why you have so many college grads. People want education so bad that they'll pay any price to get it. The market is now flooded.

You just don't get it and you just don't know what you're talking about.

In my own experience as an undergrad at a top 10 school, I've been doing real research in a real lab since my 2nd year of school. I've known some people working with professors since their first year.

If you want to go to graduate school in the sciences, forget about it if you haven't done research. Your application will most likely end up in the trash.

The real argument for state school vs. private school comes down to this as far as I'm concerned. If you have the choice between 2nd rate private school and a state school, states schools win every time. If you have the choice between state school and top 50 private school, the private school is most likely going to be the best choice, unless you're looking at a school like UC Berkley or some other top public school.

There is more to schools than just opening up a text book and learning. There are many more opportunities available at top private schools compared with a generic public school. Maybe if you didn't latch onto comparing MIT with some public school, you would have had a more convincing argument, but you don't. You're continued hold on trying to compare MIT with a public school is just ridiculous and shows how little you know about the entire system.

 

[Generator]

How is there an argument against education not leading to more jobs? Do you think engineers just make employment because they want to? No college behind them? Even the superficial jobs created by uneducated are sustained by a educated workforce.

Yes! You do actually learn something going to school. The more you go, the more you learn, the more you will be able to find opportunities and create work. The debt gathered with school is irrelevant to job creation. The person who argued that school debt leads to a recession needs to go back to school!

Again I repeat scared people looking to keep their meager jobs. You should be worried about your jobs, with this kind of attitude you're unfit to keep them. The competition is coming for yall, your days are numbered and you fucking know it.

 

[stateofbeasley]

How is there an argument against education not leading to more jobs?

Jobs are created when someone starts a business that provides a valuable good or service, or an existing business hires people to expand its operations.

(1) Starting a business - You don't need formal education to do this. Steve Jobs is one high profile example: he was a crazed guy and college dropout. But he had vision, charisma, and big ambitions. Apple was the result. Jobs would have created jobs (bleh, I know) whether he'd gone to college or not. A lot of Apple's employees were self-taught engineers -- people who tinkered with stuff.

Formal education is not necessary for job creation.

(2) Business expansion - Businesses look for people with the skill sets they need. If an education system isn't producing people with the right skills, that education isn't leading to more jobs.

Lets say I have an accounting firm. I need accountants, but all I am finding are people with BA's in Political Science, English, etc, and no course work or extracurriculars that are relevant to accounting. Am I going to hire those people? Of course not.

Summary: Formal education is not necessary to start a business. Expanding businesses need people with the right skill sets, something that the current education system often does not provide.

Even the superficial jobs created by uneducated are sustained by a educated
workforce.

Again, education does not necessarily lead to economic productivity. There can be education that makes citizens better informed about social issues, but no more productive economically.

The more you go, the more you learn, the more you will be able to find opportunities and create work. The debt gathered with school is irrelevant to job creation. The person who argued that school debt leads to a recession needs to go back to school!

The argument is not that debt hinders job creation. The argument is that huge amounts of student debt cause a lot of hardship for people right out of college, and the effects on personal finances linger for decades. On a broader level, student loan defaults damage the financial system, and taxpayers take something like 97% of the hit with a government backed loan goes into default.

The attitude that debt doesn't matter is what brought on the housing crisis and the near economic collapse. This same kind of attitude is why people take on far more loans than they can afford. Debt in of itself is not bad, but people need to take out debt in an informed and responsible manner.

Again I repeat scared people looking to keep their meager jobs. You should be worried about your jobs, with this kind of attitude you're unfit to keep them. The competition is coming for yall, your days are numbered and you fucking know it.

Oooh, I am soooo scared... :biggrin:

 

[Triumph]

Additionally, public schools are not that cheap. Out of state tuition applies in many cases. Many states have fairly mediocre schools and do not have larger, research-centered institutions that attract top talent in various fields.

Why is it that having research make a school, a good school. I never understood the correlation. This country needs to differentiate more between a teaching university and a research university, so the people who want to pay more to never actually get taught by the "top talent," who don't give a crap about teaching some punk kids anyway, can pick those schools and pay for the notoriety of riding on Stephen Hawking's coat tails or whatever. But if you want to go to school to learn something, then there should be a way to distinguish the quality of the teachers and curriculum, that doesn't have anything to do with research.

The biggest problem with this country's education, is how much trades are looked down upon, in favor of a 4 year degree. You have technical/trade schools that teach actual skills, useful marketable skills, but that person will ultimately hit a glass ceiling somewhere in their career, where someone with a degree in history or philosophy can get into high level management, even though they don't actually know how to do anything. There is no focus in this country on apprenticeships, or working your way through the ranks from the bottom.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

why is it that having research make a school, a good school. I never understood the correlation. This country needs to differentiate more between a teaching university and a research university, so the people who want to pay more to never actually get taught by the "top talent," who don't give a crap about teaching some punk kids anyway, can pick those schools and pay for the notoriety of riding on stephen hawking's coat tails or whatever. But if you want to go to school to learn something, then there should be a way to distinguish the quality of the teachers and curriculum, that doesn't have anything to do with research.

The biggest problem with this country's education, is how much trades are looked down upon, in favor of a 4 year degree. You have technical/trade schools that teach actual skills, useful marketable skills, but that person will ultimately hit a glass ceiling somewhere in their career, where someone with a degree in history or philosophy can get into high level management, even though they don't actually know how to do anything. There is no focus in this country on apprenticeships, or working your way through the ranks from the bottom.

this.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

There are some people who should not go to college. Dumb people are diluting the value of a college education.

Anyone should be able to give it a shot but not everyone should actually be able to get through it. What dilutes the value of a college education is schools passing people who should not be passing.

 

[Carmen813]

Wait, it took you until THIS thread to realize that the people posting in P&N aren't in touch with reality?

Well you know, I tried to hang in there as long as I could.

 

[ScottyB]

Why is it that having research make a school, a good school. I never understood the correlation. This country needs to differentiate more between a teaching university and a research university, so the people who want to pay more to never actually get taught by the "top talent," who don't give a crap about teaching some punk kids anyway, can pick those schools and pay for the notoriety of riding on Stephen Hawking's coat tails or whatever. But if you want to go to school to learn something, then there should be a way to distinguish the quality of the teachers and curriculum, that doesn't have anything to do with research.

The biggest problem with this country's education, is how much trades are looked down upon, in favor of a 4 year degree. You have technical/trade schools that teach actual skills, useful marketable skills, but that person will ultimately hit a glass ceiling somewhere in their career, where someone with a degree in history or philosophy can get into high level management, even though they don't actually know how to do anything. There is no focus in this country on apprenticeships, or working your way through the ranks from the bottom.

Trade schools teach people a trade. That's why they are looked down upon. They don't teach people how to learn, which is what college is all about.