Cold Air Intakes

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Have you decided on a '96 yet? 🙂

- M4H

I'm thinking something ugly and cheap to keep my girlfriend from wanting to drive it. 😛

ZV

Turbo Volvo 😀

 

[thehstrybean]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd love to see you watch Fast and the Furious while amped up on some sort of rant-inducing substance

My friends will tell you that I really don't need any extra help to get me into rant mode. And today I'm feeling especially annoyed (for non-forums reasons), so if this thread continues, there will certainly be some more examples.

ZV

/unfolds a second lawnchair

Have you decided on a '96 yet? 🙂

- M4H

*passes M4H :beer:*

 

[Ragnarok2]

Originally posted by: randay
Are cone filters generally less restrictive then (stock)box filters? If so, would the increased airflow improve throttle response or turbo spooling(lag) on a turbo car?

You could get a less restrictive K&N box filter for your stock intake, but addind a CAI is known to increase throttle response so we sould safely say that good brand cone filters(K&N or AEM) would do a hell of a better job than a paper box filter.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Have you decided on a '96 yet? 🙂

- M4H

I'm thinking something ugly and cheap to keep my girlfriend from wanting to drive it. 😛

ZV

Turbo Volvo 😀

Ill sell you mine 😀

 

[TheSlamma]

Don't waste your money on that Junksler.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: randay
cold air intakes are useless if you have a turbo car with an intercooler right?

Yes

No.

The intercooler drops the incoming temperature by x degrees. If you reduce the intake temperature by y, it combines with the intercooler's temperature drop to give a total drop of x+y degrees.

Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel.

So it's "useless" from a standpoint of getting meaningful performance increase (you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler) but it still provides the same benefit as it does with a naturally aspirated engine.

ZV

If you have an intercooler don't bother getting a CAI, the intercooler will do the job well enough. Adding a CAI will result in practically no improvement.

Zemmervolt, your formula looks good on paper, but the Y variable would be too little to even make a difference if the X variable is a hefty number.

Great job reading my post. You have truly exceptional comprehension skills. :roll:

ZV

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: thehstrybean

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'd love to see you watch Fast and the Furious while amped up on some sort of rant-inducing substance

My friends will tell you that I really don't need any extra help to get me into rant mode. And today I'm feeling especially annoyed (for non-forums reasons), so if this thread continues, there will certainly be some more examples.

ZV

/unfolds a second lawnchair

Have you decided on a '96 yet? 🙂

- M4H

*passes M4H :beer:*

/sips :beer:

- M4H

 

[Ragnarok2]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: randay
cold air intakes are useless if you have a turbo car with an intercooler right?

Yes

No.

The intercooler drops the incoming temperature by x degrees. If you reduce the intake temperature by y, it combines with the intercooler's temperature drop to give a total drop of x+y degrees.

Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel.

So it's "useless" from a standpoint of getting meaningful performance increase (you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler) but it still provides the same benefit as it does with a naturally aspirated engine.

ZV

If you have an intercooler don't bother getting a CAI, the intercooler will do the job well enough. Adding a CAI will result in practically no improvement.

Zemmervolt, your formula looks good on paper, but the Y variable would be too little to even make a difference if the X variable is a hefty number.

Great job reading my post. You have truly exceptional comprehension skills. :roll:

ZV

Randay asked if CAI's are useless with intercoolers, and they pretty much are, so I said Yes Randay, they are useless. And you go all about saying NO, and said how CAI's are useless, which is exactly what I said. Way to go.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: randay
cold air intakes are useless if you have a turbo car with an intercooler right?

Yes

No.

The intercooler drops the incoming temperature by x degrees. If you reduce the intake temperature by y, it combines with the intercooler's temperature drop to give a total drop of x+y degrees.

Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel.

So it's "useless" from a standpoint of getting meaningful performance increase (you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler) but it still provides the same benefit as it does with a naturally aspirated engine.

ZV

If you have an intercooler don't bother getting a CAI, the intercooler will do the job well enough. Adding a CAI will result in practically no improvement.

Zemmervolt, your formula looks good on paper, but the Y variable would be too little to even make a difference if the X variable is a hefty number.

Great job reading my post. You have truly exceptional comprehension skills. :roll:

ZV

Randay asked if CAI's are useless with intercoolers, and they pretty much are, so I said Yes Randay, they are useless. And you go all about saying NO, and said how CAI's are useless, which is exactly what I said. Way to go.

it doesnt matter whether he was wrong or right, zems answer was better.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Randay asked if CAI's are useless with intercoolers, and they pretty much are, so I said Yes Randay, they are useless. And you go all about saying NO, and said how CAI's are useless, which is exactly what I said. Way to go.

They're not useless, but there's definitely better bang-for-buck upgrades.

Also, note the bolded parts of ZV's parent post in relation to yours immediately following.

ZV: "Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel ... you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler"
Conclusion - CAI on FI isn't really worth it, because the IC does a better job of cooling.

R2: "If you have an intercooler don't bother getting a CAI, the intercooler will do the job well enough. Adding a CAI will result in practically no improvement. Zemmervolt, your formula looks good on paper, but the Y variable would be too little to even make a difference if the X variable is a hefty number."
Conclusion - CAI on FI isn't really worth it, because the IC does a better job of cooling.

You said the same damn thing he did.

- M4H

 

[OS]

get an interfooler

:thumbsup:

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: OS
get an interfooler

:thumbsup:

:laugh:

- M4H

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Since they're pretty cheap and and actually increase the HP somewhat I'm thinking about putting in a cold air intake in my chrysler.

The question is, can I use the factory air intake tube and just buy a coupler and filter, or do I have to get a new intake tube as well? Thanks a whole bunch!

what car, OP?

1997 Chrysler Cirrus LXi

Completely ignoring the fact that this is not a performance car, I will answer by saying that there is no reason to buy an aftermarket CAI, as it already has one from the factory. Look at the air filter box, where does the inlet hose on the bottom draw air from?

...

:Q

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: OS
get an interfooler

:thumbsup:

:laugh:

- M4H

check it

:thumbsup:

 

[Ragnarok2]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Randay asked if CAI's are useless with intercoolers, and they pretty much are, so I said Yes Randay, they are useless. And you go all about saying NO, and said how CAI's are useless, which is exactly what I said. Way to go.

They're not useless, but there's definitely better bang-for-buck upgrades.

Also, note the bolded parts of ZV's parent post in relation to yours immediately following.

ZV: "Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel ... you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler"
Conclusion - CAI on FI isn't really worth it, because the IC does a better job of cooling.

R2: "If you have an intercooler don't bother getting a CAI, the intercooler will do the job well enough. Adding a CAI will result in practically no improvement. Zemmervolt, your formula looks good on paper, but the Y variable would be too little to even make a difference if the X variable is a hefty number."
Conclusion - CAI on FI isn't really worth it, because the IC does a better job of cooling.

You said the same damn thing he did.

- M4H

Yeah but I said YES to Randays question and ZV said NO.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Since they're pretty cheap and and actually increase the HP somewhat I'm thinking about putting in a cold air intake in my chrysler.

The question is, can I use the factory air intake tube and just buy a coupler and filter, or do I have to get a new intake tube as well? Thanks a whole bunch!

what car, OP?

1997 Chrysler Cirrus LXi

Completely ignoring the fact that this is not a performance car, I will answer by saying that there is no reason to buy an aftermarket CAI, as it already has one from the factory. Look at the air filter box, where does the inlet hose on the bottom draw air from?

...

:Q

I must have missed the fact that he had a Cloud Car. People have hydrolocked those with the stock airbox because it gulps its air from so far down. :laugh:

- M4H

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Colder air compresses better, which means it provides less resistance to the push of the piston, which means that there's less energy being wasted on that compression stroke.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

Wow, that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long, long time. And I've heard some whoppers from people who think they know about cars.

Colder air is denser. This makes it slightly more difficult to compress (not enough to make any real-world difference at all though).

The power increase from colder air is due to the increased density. Because the air is denser, it contains more oxygen per given unit volume. More oxygen allows the engine to burn more fuel, which creates more power. This is one of the reasons that cars typically get poorer mileage in the winter. The colder, denser air causes the FI system to compensate for the extra oxygen by injecting more fuel.

Whoever told you that "colder air compresses better" should be banned from even touching a car as they obviously have no clue.

ZV

WARNING! DANGER TO MANIFOLD!!

:laugh:

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Yeah but I said YES to Randays question and ZV said NO.

"Useless" != "Minimal gains"

- M4H

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: OS
get an interfooler

:thumbsup:

:laugh:

- M4H

check it

:thumbsup:

Saw that in the first link. 😀

m4d tYt3 y0!

- M4H

 

[Ragnarok2]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Since they're pretty cheap and and actually increase the HP somewhat I'm thinking about putting in a cold air intake in my chrysler.

The question is, can I use the factory air intake tube and just buy a coupler and filter, or do I have to get a new intake tube as well? Thanks a whole bunch!

what car, OP?

1997 Chrysler Cirrus LXi

Completely ignoring the fact that this is not a performance car, I will answer by saying that there is no reason to buy an aftermarket CAI, as it already has one from the factory. Look at the air filter box, where does the inlet hose on the bottom draw air from?

...

:Q

The whole point of a CAI is to lose the factory filter box and get a cone filter. Sorry to break it to you, but my car doesn't come with a factory CAI.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Vic
WARNING! DANGER TO MANIFOLD!!

:laugh:

SHUT UP!

SHUT UP!!!

- M4H

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
The whole point of a CAI is to lose the factory filter box and get a cone filter. Sorry to break it to you, but my car doesn't come with a factory CAI.

:laugh:

ibZVfy*

- M4H

*In Before Zenmervolt Flames You

 

[Ragnarok2]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: Ragnarok2
Since they're pretty cheap and and actually increase the HP somewhat I'm thinking about putting in a cold air intake in my chrysler.

The question is, can I use the factory air intake tube and just buy a coupler and filter, or do I have to get a new intake tube as well? Thanks a whole bunch!

what car, OP?

1997 Chrysler Cirrus LXi

Completely ignoring the fact that this is not a performance car, I will answer by saying that there is no reason to buy an aftermarket CAI, as it already has one from the factory. Look at the air filter box, where does the inlet hose on the bottom draw air from?

...

:Q

I must have missed the fact that he had a Cloud Car. People have hydrolocked those with the stock airbox because it gulps its air from so far down. :laugh:

- M4H

yeah thats why I'd be placing the cone filter where the filter box was and not down by the fender.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Saw that in the first link. 😀

m4d tYt3 y0!

- M4H

i'm just getting warmed up yo

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: makken
I think you're going a little too technical.

warmer air = less dense = less (actual) oxygen.
On almost any modern car, the ECU determines how much gasoline actually enters the cylinder. The ECU is programmed to give just enough gas for a perfect burn - ie. all of the oxygen and gasoline is combusted. (actually, I think they're tuned to run a bit on the lean side, but dont' quote me on that) Warmer air would have less oxygen per unit volume, such that the ECU will reduce the amount of gasoline it puts in.

At least that's my reasoning for it.

Yes, you're right, but we're both making the same point, I'm just saying it in an unorthodox way that some people (like the guy who I quoted below) will not understand. The ECU actually contains preprogrammed O2:Fuel Ratios that when the O2 sensor passes the amount of O2 that it finds in the intake, it sends the electric signal to the F.I.'s and if all is timed correctly, we'll get our big bang when the sparks chime 😉.

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

Wow, that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long, long time. And I've heard some whoppers from people who think they know about cars.

Colder air is denser. This makes it slightly more difficult to compress (not enough to make any real-world difference at all though).

The power increase from colder air is due to the increased density. Because the air is denser, it contains more oxygen per given unit volume. More oxygen allows the engine to burn more fuel, which creates more power. This is one of the reasons that cars typically get poorer mileage in the winter. The colder, denser air causes the FI system to compensate for the extra oxygen by injecting more fuel.

ZV

Congratulations for telling me what I already know. Your argument of which one is harder to compress actually depends on the volume being the same, where my point was on the amount of oxygen present being the same, which makes the volume of the colder air lower, because... it's already "compressed" to a degree (the particles being closer together). You essentially said the same thing as me, but I guess it's my fault for not being completely specific in stating volume vs oxygen content. When it comes to engines, yes they do pull in the same amount of volume (via the vacuum created during the intake phase of the piston) regardless of whether the air is hot or cold, so my original comment is only theoretical and doesn't apply to true "engine physics." Also, you forgot to include one comment against me: NA cars typically have higher compression ratios than forced compression.

Personally, I know all about the concepts of using colder air because it allows higher densities. Intercoolers, devices to cool the air that is sent through the intake, typically (well, I've never seen them featured without...) featured after turbochargers, because turbos have that tiny problem of compacting air, but also heating it up.

My fault for not being clear, but your fault for acting like an ass.

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
No.

The intercooler drops the incoming temperature by x degrees. If you reduce the intake temperature by y, it combines with the intercooler's temperature drop to give a total drop of x+y degrees.

Now, will that give a significant difference? No because on a high power engine the 3-5 hp that a CAI can add (best case) will be something like a 1-2% increase, which won't even be enough to feel.

So it's "useless" from a standpoint of getting meaningful performance increase (you'd be better served by simply getting more airflow to the intercooler) but it still provides the same benefit as it does with a naturally aspirated engine.

ZV

You forgot a variable in yer equation there... air temperature being increased by turbocharger compression as you don't find too many intercoolers on cars that don't have forced compression systems.

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
I'm going to guess Talon TSI for the former, then when he put a leash on his crank and took it for a nice long walk, he got a 2.4L mid-size, like a Sebring.

Not meant to insult anyone, just taking random guesses for my own amusement. 😀

- M4H

1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD with a JDM low-mileage evo3 4G63T installed (by me). The engine is still working fine although I don't drive the car. The reason being that the clutch glazed over while driving it once and I replaced it, but my father, who helped me with certain aspects such as technique on putting larger parts in, etc, died before I had a chance to put the Transmission back on. Also, the fact that I still don't know what caused the clutch the glaze over and how other things were going wrong on the car... it was a bit of a downer for me and I somewhat lost interest. Other things being how the tach just died all of a sudden... before it died, it'd just randomly drop to 0 and then resume proper working order. I replaced a leaky cap on the ECU, checked the ignition coil (replaced it actually) and the tach would never work. My dad tried to tell me that I didn't need it, so I told him to try driving it without one. Now, he drove manual cars for about 20 years with no problem. After he tried it, he came back and told me, "Yeah, it'd be nicer to have a tach with that car."

I don't have a Sebring though, I have a 2002 Stratus SE and yes, it is a 2.4L 😛.